State of the European Union

[Essan]

But maybe this is a British thing (and another example of how we dont fit with Europe). We dont vote for an overall a leader.  We never have.  All we vote for is for a parliament.

(notwithstanding which, I am aware that these days many dont actually understand the point of parliamentary elections - but thats a different issue)

[Black Monk]

14 hours ago, Essan said:

But maybe this is a British thing (and another example of how we dont fit with Europe). We dont vote for an overall a leader.  We never have.  All we vote for is for a parliament.

(notwithstanding which, I am aware that these days many dont actually understand the point of parliamentary elections - but thats a different issue)

We each vote for the commoner who we want to represent us in the House of Commons. The only people who get to vote for the Prime Minister are those in the PM's constituency.

[Black Monk]

15 hours ago, toast said:

You claimed Britain to be the greatest democracy in Europe, if not the world, and that claim is nonsense. If I should be wrong, pls explain your claim more specific.

Well what country IS the greatest democracy in Europe and what is the greatest in the world? You seem knowledgeable on such matters.

[Black Monk]

Jean-Claude Juncker’s EU expansion plans make a powerful case for Brexit

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/britain-is-better-off-out-of-jean-claude-junckers-eu-superstate/

[Ozymandias]

1 hour ago, Black Monk said:

Jean-Claude Juncker’s EU expansion plans make a powerful case for Brexit

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/britain-is-better-off-out-of-jean-claude-junckers-eu-superstate/

An opinion piece by a Conservative hack writing in a Conservative publication with a circulation of less than 80,000 in a population of 65 million.

Is he correct? Yes? No? Maybe? How much would you be willing to bet on it? What would you bet?

Me? Nothing. But then I am not in the UK. I live in a country where the will of the people is actually and always sovereign and people do not tip their hat to opinion pieces in the 'establishment' press.

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

2 hours ago, Black Monk said:

Well what country IS the greatest democracy in Europe and what is the greatest in the world? You seem knowledgeable on such matters.

The greatest democracy in Europe is either France or Germany. France if you go by area and Germany if you go by population.

If you apply that to the entire World it is either Canada or India.

Other ways of doing it is going to be down to personal preferences.

 

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

19 hours ago, Black Monk said:

No, I'm not.

Britain is far more democratic than any European country - certainly Germany - and has been for a long time.

Most other countries in Europe seem to not quite get the whole democracy palaver, even today.

Lets take the country I am most familiar with, which also happens to be a member of the EU. How is Britain more democratic than Denmark ?

[Black Monk]

1 hour ago, Ozymandias said:

I live in a country where the will of the people is actually and always sovereign 

Apart from when voting the "wrong" way in EU referenda, in which case you are forced to have the referenda again and again until you vote the "right" way- the Lisbon Treaty referendum being a prime example.

[Black Monk]

49 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

The greatest democracy in Europe is either France or Germany. 

[Essan]

1 hour ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Lets take the country I am most familiar with, which also happens to be a member of the EU. How is Britain more democratic than Denmark ?

Because like Ireland, you too kept voting on the EU until you produced the "right" result  

(Maastricht 1992 and 1993)

But, like most countries, the UK is only democratic for a given definition of democracy ......   Like (nearly) everyone else, we elect gang members to run the country for and on behalf of said gang members and their mates.    We just prefer it to be one of our gangs that runs the playground, rather than another bigger gang from the much bigger school across the water .....

[Ozymandias]

1 hour ago, Black Monk said:

Apart from when voting the "wrong" way in EU referenda, in which case you are forced to have the referenda again and again until you vote the "right" way- the Lisbon Treaty referendum being a prime example.

Wonderfully predictable! I knew that would be your response. On Lisbon the Irish people changed their mind on further reflection and having considered the pros and cons more thoroughly the second time round. The first time they were spooked by a very vocal minority whose anti-EU propaganda swayed the eloctorate and pulled a fast one on the pro-EU side. History has proved that we made the correct decision.

You see, in Ireland, unlike  the UK, the government cannot make treaties with other countries without consulting the will of the Irish people first. It cannot even go to war in foreign places or make decisions of major national importance. Unlike the UK  where parliament is sovereign, in Ireland it is the people who are sovereign. In Ireland it was the people who accepted the Lisbon Treaty. In the UK the people had no say in it. Your parliament took that decision. Not properly democratic in my view. 

[Ozymandias]

1 hour ago, Black Monk said:

Speaks volumes. Should we be impressed that Ricky Gervaise - an expert on democracy? - giggles like a hormone-high adolescent at something totally unrelated to the topic in hand?

[Black Monk]

34 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

On Lisbon the Irish people changed their mind on further reflection and having considered the pros and cons more thoroughly the second time round. 

That's beside the point. The fact that you had a second referendum because your craven leaders didn't like the result the first time around speaks volumes about the state of "democracy" in the Irish Republic and the European Union.

Quote

The first time they were spooked by a very vocal minority whose anti-EU propaganda swayed the eloctorate and pulled a fast one on the pro-EU side.

So, in other words, the anti-EU side won (why do you think it so wrong that one side in the referendum campaign was anti-EU? There are two sides to an argument and the people then decide whose argument they like best Do you Irish actually know how democracy works?) your lack-of-balls government and the EU didn't like the result, and so the referendum was held again with, on that occasion, plenty of scaremongering and threats to frighten the people into voting the "correct" way the second time around.

France and the Netherlands also were made to vote again in EU referenda after voting the "wrong" way first time round. That's "democracy" EU-style.

There won't be a second referendum in Britain, though. Britain has the most robust democracy in Europe and our politicians respect the people's democratic will.

Quote

 

Unlike the UK  where parliament is sovereign, in Ireland it is the people who are sovereign.

 

 

 

In the UK the people are sovereign, because they can dismiss the Parliament in elections and influence it between elections through the pressure of public opinion.

Quote

In Ireland it was the people who accepted the Lisbon Treaty.

You said NO to it at first, your government and the EU didn't like the answer, they undemocratically asked you the question again, because they don't take no for an answer, rammed you with loads of pro-EU propaganda, threatened you, then you cravenly submitted and said ALRIGHT THEN MASTERS, YES! the second time around.

Quote

In the UK the people had no say in it. Your parliament took that decision. Not properly democratic in my view. 

How's it not proper democratic? We each elect a commoner to represent us in Parliament and that commoner votes and legislates on our behalf. If we were to have referenda for everything there'd be no point in having a parliament and MPs.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Black Monk

[Ozymandias]

Referenda are in the gift of your parliament and are not binding upon it. Parliament, not the people, is sovereign in the UK. The people do not ever have to be consulted. Go and learn some of the basics about how your country is governed and run.

Your parliament does not have to consult the British people on anything. In the past, it has committed the British people to wars all over the globe, not just to WWI and WWII. It was your parliament that accepted, just like the Irish people, the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties. Your highly paid and educated British politicians agreed with the Irish people that the Lisbon Treaty was in fact a good thing. It never asked the British people what their wishes were. 

In fact, the British people were never asked if they wanted to join the Common Market in the first place. At the time the UK entered into the European Union referendums in Britain were considered unconstitutional. Your parliament voted you into Europe and kept doing so ever since.

The first referendum ever held in the UK was in 1975 when the British people were asked, after already experiencing two-and-a-half years membership, if they wanted to stay in Europe. They voted 67%Yes to 33% No.

They were never consulted on Europe again until last year when they voted for Brexit.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Ozymandias

[Sir Smoke aLot]

23 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

This rules out EU membership for Turkey for the foreseeable future.

Even Erdogan has said that he would not consider it ( Turkey becoming EU member ) as an priority anymore and that 50 years long wait has shown everything Turkey needs to know. As he said it '' we are relaxed '' ( about EU application ).

Important to note, just in time frame of Erdogan's remarks, Merkel has openly stated that '' EU should scrap talks ''. This is very important.

It was always known. While EU has included eastern Europe they did not even move one bit in talks with Turkey. Thing is, Turkey would not become slave in the EU machine but most likely would be rivaling EU's strongest nations in many aspects. Than, if we simply follow common sense here, it is pretty much obvious and i do not think this has anything to do with '' 80 mil odd Muslims coming inside Europe '' but to much larger issue, which does also include security risks. Turkey is transit country for terrorists who go from West to ME and back and EU countries have fair share in that process, so does USA which is only reason why Erdogan is not called out for this by EU or USA.

All in all, bmo, it's a matter of time before Erdogan backs from all talks regarding Turkey's application and Merkel is simply prepairing for that. When it comes to EU, Germany officials statements are very important to notice.

This whole issue around Turkey surely shows the weakness of EU and their lack of confidence when it comes to stronger countries which Turkey surely belongs to.

As for UK, i am not really sure why didn't they left long ago and most likely they lose more than they get from that partnership? Hopefully, this won't snowball into situation which could change political picture of Europe in the comming years.

Especially as Russia has ( or is on good road to ) become superpower as it was decades ago, when compared to USA.

Many things in politics will change as a result of that and i fear that EU isn't strong enough player to ressist many problems which are following now so without professional and honest approach, with equality ( among countries ) EU can and will be beautiful system but without it it is doomed. Right now i think that sovereignity of every country in EU is very much debatable, in terms that it de facto does not exist anymore for many members other than few of leading ones.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

2 hours ago, Essan said:

But, like most countries, the UK is only democratic for a given definition of democracy ......   Like (nearly) everyone else, we elect gang members to run the country for and on behalf of said gang members and their mates.    We just prefer it to be one of our gangs that runs the playground, rather than another bigger gang from the much bigger school across the water .....

Indeed, democracy, on it's own, if we stop being only romantic but become more realistic, is very much doomed system, given enough time. As Ancient Greek philosophers have concluded many years ago, 'one man one vote', by itself, is what crashes any dream for near utopian society. 

[Essan]

Aye - true democracy (government of the people, for the people, by the people), like socialism and communism, is an ideal that can only work in small communities, if at all - such is the nature of the human beast.   The best we can have is a compromise.   I am not sure our current compromise is necessarily the best we could manage though.  But thats for another day!

[stevewinn]

If i was a citizen of say Ireland, Denmark, Poland, The Netherlands, or any of the other EU members, when Juncker was in full flow with all these grandiose ideas i would liked him to say how these where going to be financed. He didn't have to mention the UK by name, but the second biggest net contributor is leaving and with that a 16% black hole is going to appear in the EU's budget, how is this going to be addressed? He has grand ideas for the EU to sign more trade deals than every before, mentions Australia and New Zealand, obviously in reference to the UK and the same ambition we have, well, if He's setting out on this grand plan for trade deals you'd think he'd have included their single biggest market. strange stance. 

Remainers told us in the run up to the Referendum that a vote to Remain was a vote for the status quo. I always highlighted this was a fallacy, and a vote to remain was just as risky as a vote to Leave, and many of the things the remainers told us would never happen - are actually going to happen if we are to listen and believe Jean Cluade Junckers State of the Union speech.  -

The Euro is to be the single currency of the entire union. and His proposal is for 100% of EU members to be in the Euro. no more on the edge, like Denmark, Poland and Sweden etc.. who currently retain their own currency, - that will come to an end in the future.

The European Parliament should become the Parliament of the Euro. Europe would have a single president: Juncker’s job of leading the EU executive would be merged with the presidency of the European council of EU leaders.

Juncker then also said he was sympathetic to transnational candidates standing in European elections – i.e MEPs representing Europe, rather than a specific region, or Country. So a person in Italy could stand for election in Austria, or Greek in Germany. 

Juncker then reasserts the primacy of all EU law and that of the European Court of Justice. He wants more majority voting to settle issues. More decisions would be taken by qualified majority votes, including on sensitive areas such as tax. He proposes a single European Minister for Economy and Finance.

He wants a “fully fledged European defence union”. in essence an EU Army, I remember during the Referendum one Nick Clegg said it was simply not true in a national debate  and i repeated it on here by quoting EU statements and websites before the referendum - i was told by remainers none of this was true. i know file this lie along with all the others they promised during the referendum, all the Recessions, Job losses, you know all the hell fire and brimstone, wrath of God stuff. 

Its clear as day from The state of the Union Speech the EU is going to a place the UK could simply not follow.

When Juncker said. “The wind is back in Europe’s sails,” he declared the EU is sailing in a more federalist direction.

Im absolutely over the moon with Junckers State of the Union speech. All the people i know who voted for Remain are in damage limitation mode still in denial of where the EU is heading. voting Remain is and never was voting for the status Quo and this speech proves it.

The Speech only validates for me, my decision to vote Leave. not one day, NOT one single day as passed since the June 23rd 2016 Referendum have i regretted my decision.

We've dodged a bullet, just like we did when we didn't join the Euro. 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by stevewinn

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

9 hours ago, Black Monk said:

Like I said naming "the greatest" democracy is allways going to be down to personal opinion.

My examples were supoposed to show the difficulty of naming a specific country, but apparently I was being too subtle there.

As for my other question:

10 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Lets take the country I am most familiar with, which also happens to be a member of the EU. How is Britain more democratic than Denmark ?

You seem to have "forgotten" to answer that.

Its easy to make sweeping statements. Its a little harder when you have to justify them isn't it ? 

[Katzenking]

Radical and populist parties are not necessary to bring the EU down. As long as Juncker (and similar politicians) are leading the way, the EU will go straight and fast into the abyss.
Lack of democracy is actually the main reason. In the last EU-elections as far as I remember was the choice between Juncker and Schulz! I mean this is no choice, they are both the same. They want the same and are equally crazy. And rather than to vote for a radical party I stay at home. What I did.
No, sorry, this is no democracy! And sooner or later it will go the same way like all dictatorships go. Into chaos, collapse and catastrophy.

[bmk1245]

28 minutes ago, Katzenking said:

Radical and populist parties are not necessary to bring the EU down. As long as Juncker (and similar politicians) are leading the way, the EU will go straight and fast into the abyss.
Lack of democracy is actually the main reason. In the last EU-elections as far as I remember was the choice between Juncker and Schulz! I mean this is no choice, they are both the same. They want the same and are equally crazy. And rather than to vote for a radical party I stay at home. What I did.
No, sorry, this is no democracy! And sooner or later it will go the same way like all dictatorships go. Into chaos, collapse and catastrophy.

Well, I hope you are wrong, though I see the tendencies of what you said.

[ExpandMyMind]

On 9/13/2017 at 5:02 PM, Black Monk said:

No, I'm not.

Britain is far more democratic than any European country - certainly Germany - and has been for a long time.

Most other countries in Europe seem to not quite get the whole democracy palaver, even today.

Britain is a terrible example of a democracy. We elect leaders who do exactly the opposite of what we elected them to do, then we elect them again because there's no real choice in our system. That's not democracy. It's basically a corporate dictatorship and has been for my entire life.

Iceland is the best example of democracy in action that I can think of.

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

38 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Britain is a terrible example of a democracy. We elect leaders who do exactly the opposite of what we elected them to do, then we elect them again because there's no real choice in our system. That's not democracy. It's basically a corporate dictatorship and has been for my entire life.

Iceland is the best example of democracy in action that I can think of.

You are wrong. Britain is the the greatest democracy in the World. Any day now Black Monk is going to come back and explain why. 

 

 

PS: I have nothing at all against Britain, I am just being a little sarcastic.

[Black Monk]

On ‎14‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 11:42 PM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Like I said naming "the greatest" democracy is allways going to be down to personal opinion.

No, it isn't.

 

 

[Black Monk]

1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

We elect leaders who do exactly the opposite of what we elected them to do,

And when that happens we can kick them out and elect a new government.

Of course, when it comes to Brexit - the grestest thing to have happened to Britain since 1945 - the Government isn't doing the opposite of what we want them to do. The Government are doing exactly what the people voted for democratically - getting us out of the EUSSR. That's democracy at its best.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Black Monk