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Ozymandias

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The dust has settled, Brexit is complete, the UK has moved on and so has the EU. The divorce has not been amicable and, as two independent and competing players on the global stage, I cannot see anything in the future but bad blood between them. It is my reluctant view that they will be foes. I don't see war or anything like that but economically and culturally I see conflict.

Edited by Ozymandias
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49 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

The dust has settled, Brexit is complete, the UK has moved on and so has the EU. 

Not all of the UK apparently!

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At first the road might be a little rough but in my opinion it will be worth the ride in the long run and things will become more friendly.    

I think its likely others will pull out of the EU eventually. 

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9 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

The dust has settled, Brexit is complete, the UK has moved on and so has the EU. The divorce has not been amicable and, as two independent and competing players on the global stage, I cannot see anything in the future but bad blood between them. It is my reluctant view that they will be foes. I don't see war or anything like that but economically and culturally I see conflict.

Sounds like history as reasserted itself.

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This is indeed a big drawback of brexit. The reputation of the UK was very high on the continent before Brexit and it has (imo) already significantly decreased during the last year.
The pro-EU people think: Oh, they left our beautiful club instead of playing a bigger role in it.
The anti-EU people think: They left us alone and fled the battlefield.

I think it is absolutely essential too keep the people as close as possible together. Student exchanges, town-partnerships and the like should be maintained and intensified just now.

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On ‎15‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 9:33 PM, Katzenking said:

This is indeed a big drawback of brexit. The reputation of the UK was very high on the continent before Brexit and it has (imo) already significantly decreased during the last year.

Amongst many of the politicians maybe, but amongst many millions of EU subjects Britain is seen as a heroic nation whose people defied the entire global establishment trying to scare them out of voting to leave the EU by voting to leave the EU and making their country a free, sovereign, independent nation once again. People have given their lives around the world in order to make their countries free from tyranny and reclaim their sovereignty - the British did it peacefully at the ballot box. And millions around the EU now want to follow Britain's lead and pull their countries out of this corrupt, sclerotic and undemocratic organisation.

Edited by Black Monk
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3 hours ago, Black Monk said:

Amongst many of the politicians maybe, but amongst many millions of EU subjects Britain is seen as a heroic nation whose people defied the entire global establishment trying to scare them out of voting to leave the EU by voting to leave the EU and making their country a free, sovereign, independent nation once again. People have given their lives around the world in order to make their countries free from tyranny and reclaim their sovereignty - the British did it peacefully at the ballot box. And millions around the EU now want to follow Britain's lead and pull their countries out of this corrupt, sclerotic and undemocratic organisation.

The EU is not a tyranny. Nor is it corrupt. Your ignorance is breath-taking. By all means leave but stop unjustly maligning the EU. It has been a force for good in Europe.

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16 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

The EU is not a tyranny. Nor is it corrupt. Your ignorance is breath-taking. By all means leave but stop unjustly maligning the EU. It has been a force for good in Europe.

not corrupt,- How can you or the people of Ireland remove the EU President? you can't oh dear.

Commissioners, ex-commissioners and top officials are immune from prosecution. the Building, offices of the EU shall be exempt from search, requisition, confiscation etc...

Civil servants working for the European Union (Commission, Parliament, Court of Justice, Court of Auditors, Europol etc) are not like any other civil servant in the European Union, or like any citizen of the European Union. Why? Because they are not subject to the same judicial constraints as any of us or any of our national civil servants are.

'EU civil servants are immune from legal proceedings in respect of acts performed by them in their official capacity, including their words spoken or written. They shall continue to enjoy this immunity after they have ceased to hold office' (reference: Protocol on the privileges and immunities of the European Communities of 8 April 1965).

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A12012E%2FPRO%2F07

I'll end with Nigel Farage, talking about the commission a few years ago. aren't you proud to have such people representing you.

 

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2 hours ago, stevewinn said:

not corrupt,- How can you or the people of Ireland remove the EU President? you can't oh dear.

Commissioners, ex-commissioners and top officials are immune from prosecution. the Building, offices of the EU shall be exempt from search, requisition, confiscation etc...

Civil servants working for the European Union (Commission, Parliament, Court of Justice, Court of Auditors, Europol etc) are not like any other civil servant in the European Union, or like any citizen of the European Union. Why? Because they are not subject to the same judicial constraints as any of us or any of our national civil servants are.

'EU civil servants are immune from legal proceedings in respect of acts performed by them in their official capacity, including their words spoken or written. They shall continue to enjoy this immunity after they have ceased to hold office' (reference: Protocol on the privileges and immunities of the European Communities of 8 April 1965).

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A12012E%2FPRO%2F07

I'll end with Nigel Farage, talking about the commission a few years ago. aren't you proud to have such people representing you.

 

Why don't you learn how the EU is governed and run. Your ignorance is quite staggering.

The EU President holds office for five years. He is voted into office by the Parliament and although it has never happened the Parliament can vote him and his Commission out of office if necessary. 

You say that EU officials and civil servants are immune from prosecution. This is absolute bulls**t. You partially quoted the relevant protocols in such a way as to support your allegation but IN FACT the same protocols state explicitly that ALL are subject to the European Court of Justice, the same court whose laws your government and parliament just last week passed legislation to continue to enshrine in British law, and all this despite it being a major desire of the Brexit camp that the UK be no longer subject to this court. 

Edited by Ozymandias

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I know exactly how the EU is governed, that's why im against it. unfortunately you don't, no wonder your in favour. 

I ask again, how can the citizens of the EU elect the President of the EU. how can the citizens on the EU remove the President of the EU.

How EU citizens elect the Commission. they cant, the Commission entirely appointed.

I posted the link which anyone can read about immunity. so no selective quoting. all you have to do is click the link - what cant speak cant lie.

Let's talk about the European Court of Justice is this the same Court of Justice who voted for their own pay rise. 

read on Irish, let me educate you in the process. Lets look at EU Democracy and the Court of Justice. The rule of law is essential to any understanding of democracy a platform a foundation. The European Court as very serious flaws first of all it is a political court, its committed to push the federalist agenda without the support of the people. But it also breaks, has broke, and continues to break the fundamental principles of justice, that no man must be judge in his own court, during the financial crisis, governments via the EU council went along to the EU commission stating there is a Financial crisis, we don't think pay rises for the EU commission should be considered and there should be no pay rise while millions around Europe were losing their income and jobs. the postponement of a pay rise is provided for in the treaties if there is a sufficient financial crisis. The Commission who's salaries where about to be cut said, No, we don't want our salaries cut, So the EU Commission took the EU Council to the EU Court of Justice. The Judges sat there thinking if we agree with the EU Council we'll be cutting our own salaries. So the judges even though we can all agree the Credit crisis, the financial crisis the worst in our life times, possibly ever, yet the Judges ruled it wasn't sufficient and ruled in favour of the EU commission, allowing for the pay rises, including their own. undermining the point of Justice and this is the same Court of Justice you have faith in to rule fair. The European Court is a political court. The EU is not a country in its own regard.

Do me a favour Irish, go along to your local MP, and ask how you go about redress of grievance in areas of EU competency, your MP will tell you his or her hands are tied and will point you in the direction of your MEP. The MEP will then tell you there is nothing they can do. your then faced with a brick wall. your MP cannot act, because the minister responsible cannot act, and if the minister was to act in this area then the EU will fine the Irish Government. Welcome to Democracy EU style. on another matter, say your a small business owner, How much does it cost to lobby the Irish Government? well, i can tell you in the EU it costs £12,000 pound per session and there is a minimum of 6 sessions. £72,000 pounds and then your still not guaranteed to be successful. and thats why big globalist companies love the EU, they know small companies cannot afford such amounts to get the rules changed.

But why am i telling you this you already know and therefore must agree. with this undemocratic, gerrymandered system. 

 

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On 17.9.2017 at 6:16 PM, Black Monk said:

Amongst many of the politicians maybe, but amongst many millions of EU subjects Britain is seen as a heroic nation whose people defied the entire global establishment trying to scare them out of voting to leave the EU by voting to leave the EU and making their country a free, sovereign, independent nation once again.

I know your position and I am an EU-sceptic myself since the early 90s (like Mr.Farage).
I wished I could share the optimism of Ozymandias about the EU but the facts speak against it. In one point he is right though, these discussions become uglier (not necessary here but in the media) and they will still argue about it in 20 years. For example if the EU actually breaks up, many will put the blame on Britain (instead on Juncker, Merkel, Draghi,...).

Now Brexit is a fact, no doubt about it. But everything possible should be done that ordinary people stay friends or can become friends. This isolationist talk helps no one.
Switzerland for example is also not part of the EU but most people I know are considering the Swiss people always as friends because there are countless connections between common people despite Brussels often criticizes them.
Norway is also liked by many.
Well I personally consider the British people always as friends, but I am over 50 and have spent altogether about 1 year in the UK (mainly in pubs during the 80s and early 90s).

 

 

Edited by Katzenking
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20 hours ago, Katzenking said:

I know your position and I am an EU-sceptic myself since the early 90s (like Mr.Farage).
I wished I could share the optimism of Ozymandias about the EU but the facts speak against it. In one point he is right though, these discussions become uglier (not necessary here but in the media) and they will still argue about it in 20 years. For example if the EU actually breaks up, many will put the blame on Britain (instead on Juncker, Merkel, Draghi,...).

Now Brexit is a fact, no doubt about it. But everything possible should be done that ordinary people stay friends or can become friends. This isolationist talk helps no one.
Switzerland for example is also not part of the EU but most people I know are considering the Swiss people always as friends because there are countless connections between common people despite Brussels often criticizes them.
Norway is also liked by many.
Well I personally consider the British people always as friends, but I am over 50 and have spent altogether about 1 year in the UK (mainly in pubs during the 80s and early 90s).

 

 

Well said, Britain will always be friends with those in Europe, the leaving of a political Union will not change that. - the peoples of Europe are greater than the European Union.

Edited by stevewinn
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20 hours ago, Katzenking said:

I know your position and I am an EU-sceptic myself since the early 90s (like Mr.Farage).
I wished I could share the optimism of Ozymandias about the EU but the facts speak against it. In one point he is right though, these discussions become uglier (not necessary here but in the media) and they will still argue about it in 20 years. For example if the EU actually breaks up, many will put the blame on Britain (instead on Juncker, Merkel, Draghi,...).

Now Brexit is a fact, no doubt about it. But everything possible should be done that ordinary people stay friends or can become friends. This isolationist talk helps no one.
Switzerland for example is also not part of the EU but most people I know are considering the Swiss people always as friends because there are countless connections between common people despite Brussels often criticizes them.
Norway is also liked by many.
Well I personally consider the British people always as friends, but I am over 50 and have spent altogether about 1 year in the UK (mainly in pubs during the 80s and early 90s).

 

 

I completely agree with your sentiments. I have worked in Germany for several years until recently, (2016) and always enjoyed my time there and the people. In many respects I considered the Bavarians more English than the English^_^

The one thing that concerns me, as has been touched upon here, is that the Politicians will inevitably try to whip-up anti-UK propaganda and paint us in a very bad light by blaming all of their woes on us.

The EU needs to begin negotiating on behalf of the EU Citizens and not in support of Commission heads or indeed the EU Parliament-however, returning to the OP where we are discussing the post-Brexit manoeuvrings then I have to say that the UK, with its new trade allies will not idly accept any further diktats from the EU and if need requires it then a full-scale Trade war is not impossible. This is not something I would like to see because so many EU citizens are absolutely dependent on exporting to the UK-Spain, Portugal and Italy would suffer badly from massive unemployment in their farming industry as the UK  replaces those imports by importing from the World market.

Germany is singularly at risk in its engineering sector given President Trumps dislike of German automobiles add to that the loss of the UK markets if retaliatory tariffs are imposed then the European Project may well sink without trace.

On the other hand-if there is an amicable agreement post Brexit then the EU as well as the UK will both flourish to our mutual benefit. 

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On 17/09/2017 at 3:46 PM, Ozymandias said:

The EU is not a tyranny. Nor is it corrupt. Your ignorance is breath-taking. By all means leave but stop unjustly maligning the EU. It has been a force for good in Europe.

http://www.politico.eu/article/corruption-costs-eu-990-billion-year-rand-study-fraud-funding/

Back in the EUSSR...

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Oh, wow. Now I know why you guys enjoy U.S. politics so much. The insights one garners are amazing. Haven't heard "Irish" used as a pejorative like that before--except in movies. 

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8 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Oh, wow. Now I know why you guys enjoy U.S. politics so much. The insights one garners are amazing. Haven't heard "Irish" used as a pejorative like that before--except in movies. 

Nice people, aren't they? How people behave towards others on this forum speaks volumes about their character.

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Sunday Bloody Sunday ...

~

 

[00.05:54]

~

 

[00.04:29]

~

 

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The millions of europeans who think brexit voters were brave must be (REALLY) well hidden, not disagreeing or agreeimg with brexit vote.

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