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Science is a religion.


Hermai

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18 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

yeah, if you want to rip out one of the cornerstones of civilization, and have it all topple down. Then start over again like apes.

last i knew, there were signs of civilizations crashing, like losing their religion.

I fail to see the logic in this statement, you do realize that the Countries like China, Russia, N.Korea, outlawed religion for many years and managed to somehow still exist even with embargos levied against them, but I guess they don't count because they're not religious.Organized religions have only occupied a blink of the eye in terms of how long humans have been around and to refer to them as apes is limiting your ability to understand, not mine and it may serve you well to ask yourself who am I in the greater sense of the meaning who as an individual and a species.

jmccr8

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2 hours ago, Will Due said:

It's nice that he became one of us too, not to mention there are millions of other worlds he could have lived on.

Funny that, almost like it was all made up by humans.

Edited by Emma_Acid
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6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

I fail to see the logic in this statement, you do realize that the Countries like China, Russia, N.Korea, outlawed religion for many years and managed to somehow still exist even with embargos levied against them, but I guess they don't count because they're not religious.Organized religions have only occupied a blink of the eye in terms of how long humans have been around and to refer to them as apes is limiting your ability to understand, not mine and it may serve you well to ask yourself who am I in the greater sense of the meaning who as an individual and a species.

jmccr8

and, they've all have had genocidal regimes worse than hitler havn't they?

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1 hour ago, Opus Magnus said:

well, you're repeating yourself too, don't be a hypocrite. I try to at least add some new info in each post

1 - you're not adding any "new info", just continually repeating that "science is like religion".

2 - Where am I being a hypocrite? 

1 hour ago, Opus Magnus said:

i'm not saying science is religion, but it may act like one if people order it that way.

Anything will appear like a religion if "people order it that way". Families, businesses etc. But science isn't "ordered that way". People who don't like science like to bleat on about how it is, but then can't put up any examples when asked. They just don't like science, pure and simple.

1 hour ago, Opus Magnus said:

If religion is abolished, i really doubt science can uphold the moral code in the governments like religion has. It's the human condition to do these things.

Firstly, religion has not "upheld the moral code in governments". You can tell people not to kill and steal without inventing someone to watch over them, the bible has nothing to do with it.

Morals are proven to be innate in animals - because what is good for the individual is good for the species. It makes sense to look out for each other. This doesn't come from any god. And it's worth repeating here that using this as an argument is essentially analogous to saying "I'm only a moral person because god is watching me".

Secondly, it isn't science's job to uphold anything. It is a process.

I mean seriously, this post just proves you don't really know what it is you're actually arguing.

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6 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

and, they've all have had genocidal regimes worse than hitler havn't they?

Again, something you fundamentally misunderstand. Autocratic regimes essentially create their own religions - the "cult of the personality". They are not strictly speaking "atheist", because they maintain strict "belief" systems and idolise their founders.

And you can list just as many religious states that commit mass crimes in the name of faith. This argument is a non-starter.

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46 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

yeah, if you want to rip out one of the cornerstones of civilization, and have it all topple down. Then start over again like apes.

You actually think we'll go back to living in mud huts if there is no religion? That's hilarious. You keep telling yourself that religion is important in the 21st century - because last time I looked it was Newtonian physics that put men into space, not prayer.

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4 minutes ago, Emma_Acid said:

You actually think we'll go back to living in mud huts if there is no religion? That's hilarious. You keep telling yourself that religion is important in the 21st century - because last time I looked it was Newtonian physics that put men into space, not prayer.

well, newton was a christian, go figure. and, good luck getting far in space travel, as oil runs out.

also now, you're outright lying about me, as i keep saying science isn't a religion, but it's human nature to try to make one out of it.

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25 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

and, they've all have had genocidal regimes worse than hitler havn't they?

 

17 minutes ago, Emma_Acid said:

Again, something you fundamentally misunderstand. Autocratic regimes essentially create their own religions - the "cult of the personality". They are not strictly speaking "atheist", because they maintain strict "belief" systems and idolise their founders.

And you can list just as many religious states that commit mass crimes in the name of faith. This argument is a non-starter.

Emma has given an excellent response and I will add nothing more.

9 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

well, newton was a christian, go figure. and, good luck getting far in space travel, as oil runs out.

also now, you're outright lying about me, as i keep saying science isn't a religion, but it's human nature to try to make one out of it.

Well, actually it is you that is imposing that perspective while the rest of us are questioning why would you hold such a position and by what authority do you decide what others think. You may wish to take some time to seriously review your position.

jmccr8

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1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will,

The world is always coming apart, it is the nature of generational perception to change that is why for some the end times prophecies seem real. We live and adapt because that is how our species survives change and challenges. If the UB includes Jesus as a part of it's teaching then it is using religious doctrine even if subliminally because Jesus is the New Testament.

What other Messiah like figures does the book use in reference to all of those other inhabited planets, if there is the same god then there should be free choice and sin for all of them is there one son that continuously dies on each planet or are there other sons.

jmccr8

Yes, each world receives an incarnate Paradise Son on the order similar in every respect to the Paradise Creator Son, the maker and ruler of each local universe, who incarnated on our world, which is just one of ten miilion, as Jesus of Nazareth. But a Creator Son only incarnates personally on one world out of ten million.

These Paradise Sons are all born on every world just like we all are, by narural birth in the usual way, without anything miraculous about it except that the personality of these individuals are of a high order, the highest in the universe, to live an average life and die just like we do, naturally. 

Their presence always constitutes an epochal revelation of the highest order to each world but does not preclude more epochal revelations later by other Universe Sons, who appear on each world by other methods, not being born of a woman, in a series of progressive revelation, one at a time, and several times, on the way to each world entering the final stage of human evolution, the future stage of Light and Life, when all the problems of human behavior and the coordination of all of society's shortcomings are worked out. This is when finally "Your will be done (by everybody) on earth as it is in heaven."

Our world, because of the incarnation of the very person who created and rules the local universe, it forever changes the potentials of everything. Not only for the world but for each of us personally in particular.

One in ten million is exceptionally rare and they all know about us out there for this reason, and all of these things are outlined in the UB in great detail. A mysterious book, an epochal revelation in its own right, so obviously written by the very same authority that rules the universes.

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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4 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

lol, sure, man, but you're the one who aggressed me first on both threads. Also you brought it up.

i guess you'll just have to take it up with Jesus Christ, as he says in revelation against the idolatry of the seven churches. Also the rest of the bible, and history a.d. As some of my brothers before my time were martyred and shed their blood for this very cause.

not just me understanding this, it's the 10 commandments.

On the topic currently under discussion - i.e. whether science is a religion - you are talking sheer nonsense. I described what you said as 'bullsh*t', which is what it is. If you want to characterise that as 'aggressing' against you so be it. You are still talking nonsense. 

Now, lacking any credible argument on whether zcience is a religion and in order to make an ad hominem attack against me, you want to use some old comments I made elsewhere about idolatry in the RC church to show that (in your narrow-minded religious opinion) my judgement is faulty!  You're pathetic! Besides being an ad hominem the idolatry thing is entirely irrelevant.

You say some of your brothers were martyred before your time. Mine too. Don't you think we are brothers in Christ and united by the Ten Commandments?

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2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Their presence always constitutes an epochal revelation to each world of the highest order but does not preclude more epochal revelations later by other Universe Sons, who appear on each world by other methods, not being born of a woman,

Are there a means of physical birth other than being born of a woman?

Will, where does this book come from, as far as I can see it is still written by a man that said he received a message from god. If the book is going to include alien species from other planets why does it not explain why they are unable to contact us directly especially if they have reached a level of tech that would allow them to. Why would god create the need to continually offer a son for atonement is that fair to the millions of sons that live the life of sacrifice I find it odd that god would create the same need to do so as it seems inhuman to subject is sons to such a life and just how many chairs sit at the right hand side of god or is that privilege just exist for our messiah.

jmccr8

 

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2 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

On the topic currently under discussion - i.e. whether science is a religion - you are talking sheer nonsense. I described what you said as 'bullsh*t', which is what it is. If you want to characterise that as 'aggressing' against you so be it. You are still talking nonsense. 

Now, lacking any credible argument on whether zcience is a religion and in order to make an ad hominem attack against me, you want to use some old comments I made elsewhere about idolatry in the RC church to show that (in your narrow-minded religious opinion) my judgement is faulty!  You're pathetic! Besides being an ad hominem the idolatry thing is entirely irrelevant.

You say some of your brothers were martyred before your time. Mine too. Don't you think we are brothers in Christ and united by the Ten Commandments?

no, because you're not following them. if we're brothers, then we're at variance, and will never get along, because your people martyred mine for the right to sin in church, and mine martyred yours upholding what is right. so, we're seperated by a river of blood. Christ prophesized he would cause these sort of scenerios though. So, i guess it has to be left up to him. It's clearly idolatry to me though. 

So, i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Are there a means of physical birth other than being born of a woman? No, they appear as full grown individuals without being born like we are. An entirely different method, that isn't revealed.

Will, where does this book come from, as far as I can see it is still written by a man that said he received a message from god. The method of the hand written materialization of the 196 Papers that were later transcribed and published in 1955 as the Urantia Book are not known. A great effort was initiated to conceal the process. I have researched this extensively, but perhaps the most significant thing about the process has to do with the individual who was a sort of go between, used in some way to facilitate contact, who has remained anonymous for good reason because this person would have likely been venerated in the usual way, which would have been a distraction. No one knows how these handwriiten documents were materialized except that a safe was used. Another interesting thing about this is that the handwriting of this contact individual did not match the handwriting of the papers. Also, reportedly, when the papers were read back to the contact individual, he showed no intetest in what the papers said and also, reportedly, the concepts of the papers were markedly different than his personal ideas or philosophy. 

 

If the book is going to include alien species from other planets why does it not explain why they are unable to contact us directly especially if they have reached a level of tech that would allow them to. Our world is one of 34 other worlds out of 606 that make up the system of worlds that we belong to. Our world is number 606, the most recent to be recorded as an inhabited world. The baby in other words. This system was taken down in a rebellion two hundred thousand years ago, instigated by the system ruler and some of his associates who rule the worlds that constitute his system. Because of this, the 34 worlds that are involved in this rebellion were quarantined. But contact is made now. That's what the UB is for. It's information about all of it, and it tells us that very soon (perhaps hundreds of years) this situation of proper representation and comminication between worlds is going to be restored.

 

Why would god create the need to continually offer a son for atonement is that fair to the millions of sons that live the life of sacrifice The Universal Father does not require a ransom, a payment or what is conventionally referred to religiously, as an atonement for sin. This mistaken idea about God is a part of the evolution of religion and is unworthy of consideration when looking upon the barbaric murder of the incarnate Creator Son. It became unavoidable for him to die any other way. So he humbly submitted to this atrocity. The circumstances of the rebellion are at the heart of all of this. In my opinion, on a normal world not taken down by rebellion, this does not occur. (I hope)

 

I find it odd that god would create the same need to do so as it seems inhuman to subject is sons to such a life and just how many chairs sit at the right hand side of god or is that privilege just exist for our messiah. This right hand privilige exists for everyone. Especially us humans. The Father has sent a part of himself to dwell within each of us to share every failure and every success with us, there to guide us, leading us "by the hand." With this indwelling divine entity, we are all destined to fuse with it someday potentially. When this happens to our soul, no one will be able to distinguish the difference between us and God. We will have become like him.

This is the good news that Jesus proclaimed. And it was because of him teaching this, that the priests killed him.

We are the sons of God and no priest or rebel can ever take that away from us.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

no, because you're not following them. if we're brothers, then we're at variance, and will never get along, because your people martyred mine for the right to sin in church, and mine martyred yours upholding what is right. so, we're seperated by a river of blood. Christ prophesized he would cause these sort of scenerios though. So, i guess it has to be left up to him. It's clearly idolatry to me though. 

So, i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

You've got some bloody neck! You don't know me at all yet you say I don't follow the Ten Commandments and totally inappropriately sit in self-righteous judgement of me. I also find it more than a little disturbing that you think there is a river of blood between us. 

This thread is not about me personally, or about idolatry, but is about science. Your personal attack on me is outrageous and wholly unjustifiable. If I knew how to make a complaint to the Mods I would. I'm so angry.

Edited by Ozymandias
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16 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

You've got some bloody neck! You don't know me at all yet you say I don't follow the Ten Commandments and totally inappropriately sit in self-righteous judgement of me. I also find it more than a little disturbing that you think there is a river of blood between us. 

This thread is not about me personally, or about idolatry, but is about science. Your personal attack on me is outrageous and wholly unjustifiable. If I knew how to make a complaint to the Mods I would. I'm so angry.

lol. Then accept my parting peace, and don't bother me anymore.

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2 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

lol. Then accept my parting peace, and don't bother me anymore.

Peace accepted, although an apology would have been more honourable.

Regarding me not bothering you, I always retain the right on a public forum such as this to challenge or comment upon anything you may post, and I will.

I can guarantee you that I will never make ad hominem statements against you. I would be obliged in future if you would allow me the same courtesy.

Peace. 

Edited by Ozymandias
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2 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Peace accepted, although an apology would have been more honourable.

Regarding me not bothering you, I always retain the right on a public forum such as this to challenge or comment upon anything you may post, and I will.

I can guarantee you that I will never make ad hominem statements against you. I would be obliged in future if you would allow me the same courtesy.

Peace. 

Alright, sorry.  Not trying to be rude, just trying to get by.  Afterall, this year's All Hallow's Eve was the 500th year anniversary of Martin Luther's reformation nailing in 1517.  So, that was only 7 days ago.  So, I'll keep praying for the peace.

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1 hour ago, Opus Magnus said:

Alright, sorry.  Not trying to be rude, just trying to get by.  Afterall, this year's All Hallow's Eve was the 500th year anniversary of Martin Luther's reformation nailing in 1517.  So, that was only 7 days ago.  So, I'll keep praying for the peace.

 :) We're good. :tu: Peace.

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On 11/6/2017 at 5:24 PM, Opus Magnus said:

well, newton was a christian, go figure. 

His religion has nothing to do with it. Prayer does not get you in to space. Physics does. Religion does not hold 21 century society together. 99% of every one i know is an atheist, and they are the most moral people you could hope to meet.

On 11/6/2017 at 5:24 PM, Opus Magnus said:

also now, you're outright lying about me, as i keep saying science isn't a religion, but it's human nature to try to make one out of it.

Well so what? That doesn't mean science is a religion or faith-based. It means that people are fickle and prone to biases. But it is these biases that the scientific method is designed to deal with.

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9 hours ago, Emma_Acid said:

His religion has nothing to do with it. Prayer does not get you in to space. Physics does. Religion does not hold 21 century society together. 99% of every one i know is an atheist, and they are the most moral people you could hope to meet.

Well so what? That doesn't mean science is a religion or faith-based. It means that people are fickle and prone to biases. But it is these biases that the scientific method is designed to deal with.

If you really want to know, I think it's because of their parents being Christian, that they're living in the bless and standards of morals held by their parents that have been passed down, but soon that will wear out if they don't hold it up themselves. 

So, science isn't a religion, but you can make a religion in the name of science.  Just like you can create cults in the name of Jesus.

His religion does matter, because you're pretty much stealing from him, if you want to take his work, and erase the rest of his life from the credit.  You're pretty much refusing his reputation when you refuse Isaac Newton's religion.  You might as well just deny his whole life.  But, I don't think it's supposed to be a problem, it comes from what the scripture warns about denying the name of Jesus, so you deny his name, and you start to in effect deny most of Newton's life, then you'll run into problems admitting the whole validity of his work.  It's kind of amusing to consider. Otherwise, we could just say: "oh he believed in God too," then continue like nothing happened.

So, religion isn't all about prayer, that's only one part of it, most of it is about deeds and keeping certain habits, and staying away from others, and those things do get you into space because they help the mind work effectively and propel people to work.

But, I thought you already admitted there is some faith involved in science.  Because, faith is part of the human mind, and belief, so as long as humans are involved in science there is going to be faith involved in it.

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4 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

His religion does matter, because you're pretty much stealing from him, if you want to take his work, and erase the rest of his life from the credit.  You're pretty much refusing his reputation when you refuse Isaac Newton's religion

The problem with this argument is that his work in physics can be taken separately from his religion. Gravity is gravity regardless of which deity you revere and the application of scientific method, not his religion, is what led him to make the discoveries he did.

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4 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

The problem with this argument is that his work in physics can be taken separately from his religion. Gravity is gravity regardless of which deity you revere and the application of scientific method, not his religion, is what led him to make the discoveries he did.

The point is that Isaac Newton was a believing Christian, and so many of you keep saying that Christians are unable to do anything scientific.  So many claims keep coming up that are absurd.  You can take the physics out, but you can't take Newton out of Christianity.  So, these things were done while he was a Christian, and they are a Christian's laws.  I mean, I don't see what the problem is.  There is something wrong with the whole argument because it shouldn't have to happen.  You might as well just take his work, and take his name out of history, because somewhere in his work you're going to run into a problem with him being Christian.

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33 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

and so many of you keep saying that Christians are unable to do anything scientific

Not my claim and I don't remember seeing others making it either. Maybe they have but it's wrong.

34 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

So, these things were done while he was a Christian, and they are a Christian's laws

Umm no. They are the physical laws of nature. The religious denomination of the discoverer has no bearing on the discovery. If SINewton was a Muslim then the law of gravity would still be the law of gravity.

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On 11/5/2017 at 3:31 AM, Ozymandias said:

As a lecturer and educator in science, engineering and mathematics for nearly 35 years I can tell you that the word 'believe' has never - not once - been part of my teaching vocabulary.

As a Christian the word 'believe' is the rock upon which my spiritual faith is built.

I know science; I believe in God.

This is true for you. But is it true for every other human being?

Then is not the answer to the question based off Perspective?

If I go to a Calahari Bushman and ask him about quantum string theory, and I tell him that it is believed to be how the Universe works, is he going to know that for true, or is he going to have to trust me? Have faith in what he's been told?

True... To those who have been educated in science, it is straightforward. But to those who have not, it is mysterious and requires Belief. 

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3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

This is true for you. But is it true for every other human being?

Then is not the answer to the question based off Perspective?

If I go to a Calahari Bushman and ask him about quantum string theory, and I tell him that it is believed to be how the Universe works, is he going to know that for true, or is he going to have to trust me? Have faith in what he's been told?

True... To those who have been educated in science, it is straightforward. But to those who have not, it is mysterious and requires Belief. 

No. That kind of belief is really trust, and it is not belief in science but rather in the scientist.  We all trust our car mechanics, our doctors, our architects, our computer engineers, and, yes, our scientists. That does not mean that these professional and highly trained people practice some belief based voodoo in their respective disciplines. Science, engineering, medicine and arcitecture are not religions and do not involve religious belief on the part of their practitioners.

Edited by Ozymandias
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