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Hamas says it is ready to hold elections

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RoofGardener
7 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

They will never recognize '' Jewish state ''. It's big difference.

No, it is NOT different. HAMAS are committed to the destruction of Israel. How can Israel POSSIBLY to countenance their involvement in the Palestinian Authority ?

Israel is destroying Palestinian heritage for 100 years ( 70 under proclaimed state ) and has never shown any amount of respect for them. Should Hamas say that they are committed to loving such agressive state?...

HAMAS doesn't have to love Israel. However, if it is involved in the PA government, and it is constitutionally committed to the destruction of Israel, then the Palestinians have to understand that they will never have peace, and the fault is theirs, not Israels.

WHAT "Palestinian" heritage is Israel destroying ? Could you be specific ?
 

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Sir Smoke aLot
18 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

No, it is NOT different. HAMAS are committed to the destruction of Israel.

By declaring '' Jewish state '' what does it mean for other people living in Israel? Does it contradict every value which is promoted today? Of course it does. 

18 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

How can Israel POSSIBLY to countenance their involvement in the Palestinian Authority ?

Because they are elected by people and no one has right to label people as terrorists. But Israel can get away with anything.

18 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

HAMAS doesn't have to love Israel. However, if it is involved in the PA government, and it is constitutionally committed to the destruction of Israel, then the Palestinians have to understand that they will never have peace, and the fault is theirs, not Israels.

As long as Israel doesn't show respect for Palestinians there will be no peace. 

18 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

WHAT "Palestinian" heritage is Israel destroying ? Could you be specific ?

It's long subject and evident in many parts of occupied lands and land taken by Israel by 1948. Not just culture and art but also economy. Let's take city of Jaffa for example, who did continue to trade with Jaffa oranges after fall of Jaffa? Whos business it was before?

[edit] to add, what does UNESCO stand for? :)

Edited by Sir Smoke aLot

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RoofGardener
41 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

By declaring '' Jewish state '' what does it mean for other people living in Israel? Does it contradict every value which is promoted today? Of course it does.

I believe the term is "Jewish and democratic state", and it is the most liberal and inclusive state for 1000 miles around. It has Arabs in the Knesset. How many Jews are their in the Saudi Government ? Or the Iranian Assembly of Experts ? :P So I would suggest that - Unlike the Palestinian Authority - the Israeli society fully upholds these values.

41 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Because they are elected by people and no one has right to label people as terrorists. But Israel can get away with anything.

Hitler was "elected by people". Are you SERIOUSLY saying that HAMAS do NOT use terrorist tactics deliberately targetting civilians ? I mean... REALLY ? :P

41 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

As long as Israel doesn't show respect for Palestinians there will be no peace.

It was the Palestinians who started the disrespect. Israel has offered the hand of peace time and time again. On each occasion, the PLO have spat in their face, and lied to the world. Sir SmokeALot.... have you READ the PLO constitution ? It is committed to the destruction of Israel, and the nullification of all international agreements. Respect is earned, not given.

As for "UNESCO", I believe it stands for the United Nations Elimination of Semitic Culture Organisation ? :P

 

41 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

It's long subject and evident in many parts of occupied lands and land taken by Israel by 1948. Not just culture and art but also economy. Let's take city of Jaffa for example, who did continue to trade with Jaffa oranges after fall of Jaffa? Whos business it was before?

Can you give me any examples of Palestinian "heritage" ? As for the Jaffa oranges; they'd been around for a while, but mostly flourished because of Jewish agricultural  techniques throughout the late 19th and early 20th century.  They where "Palestinian" only in the geographical sense, and in the sense that the Jews where "Palestinians" at the time :)

So.. back to the heritage.... examples of culture, Art and "economy" that have been somehow stolen by the state of Israel, please ? :)

Edited by RoofGardener
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Sir Smoke aLot
18 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

"Jewish and democratic state"

One disproves the other.

Personally i do not have any resention for concept of Jewish state but it is not democracy. 

24 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

and it is the most liberal and inclusive state for 1000 miles around. It has Arabs in the Knesset. How many Jews are their in the Saudi Government ? Or the Iranian Assembly of Experts ? :P So I would suggest that - Unlike the Palestinian Authority - the Israeli society fully upholds these values.

Syria was better society and state by far, before it was destroyed. There are numerous acounts of violations of human rights not only in occupied lands but also inside 1948 borders. Not only that Arabs are 2nd grade citizents but also Jews are in many casses ( for example i have to mention Holocaust survivors who live in poverty while it was their suffering and horrors which they come through which made Israel at first place, link ). If they threat elders like that...

Most important, you can not compare society which lives under occupation and that which is free in the way that you just did. You can compare Israel to any other sovereign state and surely i can accept that they are way more free than Saudi's for example but that doesn't make them democratic at all. Actually, since Bibi got to power and everything which his party represents and stands for is contrary to democracy :)

30 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hitler was "elected by people". Are you SERIOUSLY saying that HAMAS do NOT use terrorist tactics deliberately targetting civilians ? I mean... REALLY ?

Indeed he was, because Hitler abused situation which brutal extortion of German people after WW1 made. Man, he wasn't voted just like that, from thin air. There is a reason for everything.

Now, Hamas wasn't there since forever, Israel made Hamas as much as Britain and Russia made Hitler but there is big difference... Hamas is legitimate ressistance force and as for '' deliberately targetting civilians '' let's see, in operation '' Protective Edge '', on Israel side 3 civilians died out of which 2 were foreign workers.

Should i mention what happened in Gaza? Using high yield bombs in densely populated urban area in which over 50% of population is aged below 13. Now that is deliberate! Should we label Israel as terrorist organization? No, we can't because international law forbids that and it would be wrong but what's worse, no one will every answer to justice for over 560 Palestinian kids who god killed brutally. Now i should say, REALLY?

37 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

It was the Palestinians who started the disrespect. Israel has offered the hand of peace time and time again. On each occasion, the PLO have spat in their face, and lied to the world. Sir SmokeALot.... have you READ the PLO constitution ? It is committed to the destruction of Israel, and the nullification of all international agreements. Respect is earned, not given.

As for "UNESCO", I believe it stands for the United Nations Elimination of Semitic Culture Organisation ?

I could recommend you two books about the essence of this problem. It covers larger period of time, since late 1800s. See, PLO nor their constitution, neither existed back then. Indeed, (dis)respect from Palestinians in Israel's case was earned, well earned. You can not neglect Balfour declaration either. Nor could you neglect Irgun and their terrorist acts nor murder of Al-Qassam whos name one Hamas brigade wears proudly. Those are facts, Israel has deserved everything which Palestinians think of them.

I love your 'translation' of UNESCO. Most of Semitic heritage is destroyed, that is full truth but it was on Palestinian expense.

43 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Can you give me any examples of Palestinian "heritage" ? As for the Jaffa oranges; they'd been around for a while, but mostly flourished because of Jewish agricultural  techniques throughout the late 19th and early 20th century.  They where "Palestinian" only in the geographical sense, and in the sense that the Jews where "Palestinians" at the time :)

So.. back to the heritage.... examples of culture, Art and "economy" that have been somehow stolen by the state of Israel, please ? :)

I won't go there simply because i know your view of Palestinians as scatters and you base your claim on it now so it would be pointless for us to talk about it, in that case we differ a lot. Simple way to destroy such claims is great website called '' Palestine photo project '' which shows how oranges production flourished even in 1870s, how city life was organized even earlier. 

It always amazed me how pro-Zionists do not find it hard nor unpleasant to call whole people names and try to label them as mere savages and unworthy humans and also how they go so far in claims that Palestinians didn't even exist but at same time it is only Israel who supports Kurds for their right of self determination.

Absurdity and insulting to common sense. If i would make some similar remark for Jewish settlers i would immidiately be labeled as an anti-semite ( even tho that term is also absurd, Israel is anti-semitic country if we should follow definitions for what they are worth ).

Essence of those claims are made over '' land without people for the people without land '' which was scholarly proven to be falsity and distortion of historical facts.

This is great piece of work ( LINK ) which made me stronger in my beliefs and support for Palestinians and it is pro-Israel more than Bibi ;) In there you will see how ''scatters'' and ''agricultural technologies'' stories were invented.

Agriculture, which is broad ofc but let's see, grain is used for about 100,000 years my friend it was not that first Jewish settlers brought knowledge in Palestine.

 

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Sir Smoke aLot

From Geneva and Hague conventions :

 

Fourth Geneva Convention 1949

"The Occupying Power must also … not destroy real or personal property of individuals, organizations or public authorities unless such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations." (Article 33)

"Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social and cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations." (Article 53)

"Grave breaches to which the preceding Article relates shall be those involving any of the following acts, if committed against persons or property protected by the present Convention …. extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly." (Article 147)

Hague Convention and Protocol of 1954 for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict

Protection of Cultural Property in Occupied Territory: “ … a Party in occupation of the whole or part of the territory of another Party shall prohibit and prevent in relation to the Occupied Territory . . . any alteration to, or change of use of, cultural property which is intended to conceal or destroy cultural, historical or scientific evidence." (Article 9.1(c)).

Link to amnesty.org evaluation of 2002 events near and in Nablus.

All in all, in over 100 years of struggle in the area to even ask if anything was destroyed is kinda insulting towards victims but that is just how i see things

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RoofGardener

Israel is not a democracy ?

Syria (under the Assads) was a better State ?

HAMAS is a "legitimate" "resistance" organisation ?

Black is White.

Up is Down

:D

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Sir Smoke aLot
3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Israel is not a democracy ?

Syria (under the Assads) was a better State ?

HAMAS is a "legitimate" "resistance" organisation ?

Black is White.

Up is Down

:D

Israel is not democracy as it acts differently than what civilized values stand for, parliament or different parties inside system doesn't mean that it is democracy and 2nd grade citizens know this better.

Syria under Assad is better than Israel, it is debatable claim indeed but i believe i could make point there. 

Hamas actually is legitimate under international law and also morally which translates in genuine resistance force.

We have different view of colors :D Another subject, if you are interested I've just found some links which kinda point out to new conflict...

Remember when i was talking about possible new war which Israel will make against either Hezbollah or Hamas or both?

Warmongering has started in Israeli media ( induced by this 'research' : LINK ) and here is manifestation in medias LINK. There are many more.

I've assumed this might happen ( similarly to '' Protective Edge '' but we currently lack spark which would start war, alto it is small and easy step to make ) based on this IDF 'training', troops are still in place.

 

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RoofGardener
4 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Israel is not democracy as it acts differently than what civilized values stand for, parliament or different parties inside system doesn't mean that it is democracy and 2nd grade citizens know this better.

There may be racism in Israeli society, just as there is in many societies. However, Israeli Law recognises all citizens as being equal. There is anti-discrimination legislation. And a multi-party parliamentary system, with separation of Executive, Legislature and Judiciary, and equal rights for all, and internationally monitored regular elections,  is most CERTAINLY a democracy. :)

 

8 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

....Hamas actually is legitimate under international law and also morally which translates in genuine resistance force.

Under international law ? It is a proscribed terrorist organisation in most of the civilised world, and even in some Muslim countries !

And Morally ? I mean.... really ?

laughing-emoji.png

Some of your links ARE interesting, though they seem to relate more to Iran (via Hizbollah) rather than HAMAS. Still, worth reading :)

 

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Sir Smoke aLot
Just now, RoofGardener said:

It is a proscribed terrorist organisation in most of the civilised world, and even in some Muslim countries !

Because they are demonized since they formed and only with spread of internet did more info come out for public. Thanks to all independent journalists who risked ( and many lost ) both their lives and carriers to inform us all objectively.

Your claim that it is designated as terrorist in most of civilized world is funny. Check quoted part, source link HERE.

 

Canada, since 2002 under Anti-Terrorism Act ( pressure after 9/11 and War on terror effort )


EU, since 2003, because of the same effort by Bush administration but in 2014 General Court ordered removal of Hamas from register. In 2015, despite court process, EU decided to keep Hamas on the list.


Israel, well, no need to say about why :D


Japan, in 2005, froze assets of 472 terrorists and organizations, including those of Hamas. But, in 2006, Japan publicly acknowledged that Hamas had won the 2006 elections democratically ( as determined by those who were overseeing elections - i do not say that you can not paint people as terrorists, its illegal )
Jordan banned Hamas in 1999 and in 2013 rejected to allow Hamas to reopen offices in Jordan ( also, obvious because of Military and other aid and sort of alliance with USA and Israel )


United Kingdom designated Al-Qassam brigade as proscribed organization under Terrorism Act since 2001, but Hamas as whole is not listed. See, again time frame around War on Terror.


USA list it as terrorist, obvious because USA policy on ME is dictated by Israel, not by USA ( sad thing for strongest country in the world ).


In Saudi Arabia Hamas is not directly listed but covers hamas as of 2014 indirectly.


Egypt designated them as terrorist in 2015 as part of crackdown campaign against Muslim Brotherhood.

Most of civilized world? :D

Egypt, USA, Israel and EU ( which is shaken by differences inside it, Britain is going out for good reason because once strongest empire is most likely feed up with being mere puppet in geo political games ) is that most of civilized world?

Asia, South America, some European countries which have sovereignty do not blindly follow USA and Israel orders and other regions are not civilized? What are they, '' Filipino monkeys? '' well that is what Duterte says about how the west describes his people. Russian barbarians? Chinese yellow monkeys?

Those are all names which were seen widely and used to shame other races in so called ' civilized world ' who was built by slaves from colonies and resources from colonies.

Morally, yes, Hamas is morally correct. Would you bend to your knees or try to walk with you head up? I respect those who keep their head up, learned it from Ghandi and his messages.

 

 

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Sir Smoke aLot

Glad you like links, yes more related to Hezbollah. I always read both Israeli and other party and also wait for official statement from USA or what press in USA writes to evaluate situation.

Thing is, nowadays almost everything is fake and pretty does it look, hard to tell truth and on personal example :D hell even my two teeth are fake but they look better than my natural ones :D 

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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Because they are demonized since they formed and only with spread of internet did more info come out for public. Thanks to all independent journalists who risked ( and many lost )

They where demonised because they where violent fascist religious maniacs ! (and still are ).

Quote

... Morally, yes, Hamas is morally correct. Would you bend to your knees or try to walk with you head up? I respect those who keep their head up, learned it from Ghandi and his messages. ..

Yeah' cos Ghandi preached the destruction of India by violent means, and launched thousands of rockets at civilian areas.... FROM crowded civilian areas, because he wanted the Media coverage of those civilians being injured by the reprisal/suppression attacks. (e.g. Human Shields). Ghandi also approved of storing weapons etc in schools and hospitals. :D

He could be a RIGHT moody b***** at times :P

Edited by RoofGardener

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Sir Smoke aLot
6 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

They where demonised because they where violent fascist religious maniacs ! (and still are ).

They surely have some things which Palestinian civilians do not agree with but, other side has it's 'valuables' too :) Hamas is there since 1987 if i remember correctly.

6 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Yeah' cos Ghandi preached the destruction of India by violent means, and launched thousands of rockets at civilian areas.... FROM crowded civilian areas, because he wanted the Media coverage of those civilians being injured by the reprisal/suppression attacks. (e.g. Human Shields). Ghandi also approved of storing weapons etc in schools and hospitals. :D

He could be a RIGHT moody b***** at times :P

Gandhi's essential message is enough i believe. And hey, i show how IDF use human shields just recently in this forum :)

If you use high yield bombs in densely populated area where over 50% of population is aged under 13 than you know there will be civilian victims and you can't blame anyone for using alleged human shield. Gaza is one of most densely populated areas in the world.

And as for storing of weapons in schools and hospitals, it's all allegedly, not factually but given situation and geographical properties of the area, where can they store their ammo? There are not many possibilities knowing how IDF can see even an mosquito flying above Gaza.

Damn you use those emotes so efficiently, especially that big one just earlier :D

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