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LightAngel

Consciousness Without Brain Activity.

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papageorge1
4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

We need quantifiable evidence of that consciousness or self truly exist past physical death. 

"Quantifiable"?  That will be hard with something not detectable by physical senses and instruments. Subtle planes are not directly detectable by grosser planes is the teaching of Vedic and esoteric wisdom traditions. They are of dimensions and vibratory rates we can not directly observe. We have to rely on anecdotal data (plenty of that) and consider the understanding of those who claim perception of things using super-physical senses. Physical science must remain agnostic on the thread topic of 'consciousness without brain activity'. 

Giving physical science undue attention on this subject is really scientism which is (per the dictionary) excessive belief in the power of scientific knowledge and techniques

 

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Sherapy
31 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

When a radio stops working, there's no longer any sound being produced by the radio. Therefore someone who doesn't understand the science of radio waves could easily look at that and claim that the music died with the radio. But the truth is that the music was merely information riding on radio waves all around us, and that the radio was merely picking up on this information and converting it to sound. Therefore it makes perfect sense why there'd be no sound once the radio 'dies'.

This is just an analogy of course so don't go too far into it, but you get my point.

Just because consciousness ceases at the moment the brain starts shutting down doesn't necessarily mean that consciousness is generated by the brain. It could mean that, but this other scenario is just as possible as well. I would personally argue that this materialist hypothesis is implausible, of course. But nonetheless...

It is just an analogy and in real life what I told you is the reality of death. Perhaps we will learn more as time progresses but we don't know and I prefer to just say I don't know at this time. I am a caregiver for the dieing and trust me there is no consciousness or the ability to respond once the kidneys shut down and the death gurgling starts. 

It is common for people to want to glamorize death, to have immortality, this is the ego talking and I have no issue with this whatever works for you, analogize away and I will even add that death is a bad ass thing to do, there is nothing more intense or final or scary and it is not an easy journey to traverse, thank god the conciouosness goes, seriously to witness the body dying is shocking to say the least. It is traumatizing ask any nurse or doctor, it never gets easier. 

Honestly, don't waste your time theories is my two cents, waste your time on living your life to the fullest. Make every moment count!

Edited by Sherapy

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XenoFish
Just now, papageorge1 said:

"Quantifiable"?  That will be hard with something not detectable by physical senses and instruments. Subtle planes are not directly detectable by grosser planes is the teaching of Vedic and esoteric wisdom traditions. They are of dimensions and vibratory rates we can not directly observe. We have to rely on anecdotal data (plenty of that) and consider the understanding of those who claim perception of things using super-physical senses. Physical science must remain agnostic on the thread topic of 'consciousness without brain activity'. 

Giving physical science undue attention on this subject is really scientism which is (per the dictionary) excessive belief in the power of scientific knowledge and techniques

 

We have equipment that can detect things on a quantum level. Don't tell me this garbage. Everything that makes you who you are, it's all a collect of synapses firing. Cut the power and nothing works. Turn off a computer with no power source it does not work, dead is dead. There is nothing after death, except a rotten mass of flesh and bone. Your afterlife, is fertilizer.

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XenoFish
7 minutes ago, Wes4747 said:

I like conversations that discuss possibilities.. 

The only possibility that I see is this thread going nowhere. 

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papageorge1
3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

It is just an analogy and in real life what I told you is the reality of death. Perhaps we will learn more as time progresses but we don't know and I prefer to just say I don't know at this time. I am a caregiver for the dieing and trust me there is no consciousness or the ability to respond once the kidneys shut down and the death gurgling starts. 

It is common for people to want to glamorize death, to have immortality, this is the ego talking and I have no issue with this whatever works for you, analogize away and I will even add that death is a bad ass thing to do, there is nothing more intense or final or scary and it is not an easy journey to traverse, thank god the conciouosness goes, seriously to witness the body dying is shocking to say the least. It is traumatizing ask any nurse or doctor, it never gets easier. 

Here you are just talking about physical consciousness through a physical body. There is no debate about that but the thread topic is about 'consciousness without brain activity'. You can't judge that from just looking at the physical.

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papageorge1
4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

We have equipment that can detect things on a quantum level. Don't tell me this garbage. Everything that makes you who you are, it's all a collect of synapses firing. Cut the power and nothing works. Turn off a computer with no power source it does not work, dead is dead. There is nothing after death, except a rotten mass of flesh and bone. Your afterlife, is fertilizer.

Can we directly detect 95% of the matter/energy in the universe. According to science we can't?

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XenoFish
Just now, papageorge1 said:

Can we directly detect 95% of the matter/energy in the universe. According to science we can't?

That's no excuse for your magical thinking either. 

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Sherapy
19 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

We have equipment that can detect things on a quantum level. Don't tell me this garbage. Everything that makes you who you are, it's all a collect of synapses firing. Cut the power and nothing works. Turn off a computer with no power source it does not work, dead is dead. There is nothing after death, except a rotten mass of flesh and bone. Your afterlife, is fertilizer.

Yes, it is not any clearer than this. 

It is earth shattering as a caregiver to be the one who handles the death part. 

My last death was 6 weeks ago and I will be off for a awhile, that is if I decide to continue down this path. 

I may not because the hardest part for me is losing the  patient. Literally!  

I have seen death up close and personal and it is a cruel process. 

Especially, for those that have terminal illnesses, that know they are going die. 

Edited by Sherapy
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papageorge1
Just now, XenoFish said:

That's no excuse for your magical thinking either. 

I don't consider it an excuse but an understanding. I follow the evidence and best argumentation.

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XenoFish
Just now, Sherapy said:

Yes, it is not any clearer than this. 

It is earth shattering as a caregiver to be the one who handles the death part. 

My last death was 6 weeks ago and I will be off for a awhile, that is if I decide to continue down this path. 

I may not because the hardest part for me is losing her patient. Literally!  

I have seen death up close and personal and it is a cruel process. 

Especially, for those that have terminal illnesses, that know they are going die. 

The real point of this thread is a HOPE that there is life after death, due to the fear of losing oneself forever. That what this is all about. People looking for something materialistic to stand on and say "It is so". That it. Like so many other threads that follow similar ideas. People are afraid of death and they'll believe anything for a shred of hope. 

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XenoFish
Just now, papageorge1 said:

I don't consider it an excuse but an understanding.

I wished you start proving that statement.

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papageorge1
Just now, XenoFish said:

I wished you start proving that statement.

I don't claim proof to physical science at this time.

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XenoFish
Just now, papageorge1 said:

I don't claim proof to physical science at this time.

You don't claim proof to anything unless it anecdotal.

To get by to my point all of this boils down to Terror Management.

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papageorge1
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

You don't claim proof to anything unless it anecdotal.

To get by to my point all of this boils down to Terror Management.

I am not terrorized by materialism. I objectively believe it to be wrong.

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Aquila King
2 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

It is just an analogy and in real life what I told you is the reality of death.

And how do you know this? This is a belief you've posited based on evidence that you (or some other authority that you believe) has interpreted to be correct.

I don't mean to be such a hard ass about this, I'm simply asking for a little honesty and consistency. I know you can be quick to point out when someone is stating their beliefs as facts, but then you make a belief-based statement like this ^ as fact, when in reality it's just your belief based on interpretation. I have no problem stating that this is my belief based on interpretation, so why do so many materialists insist that their interpretation is fact? It honestly comes off as insecure. :hmm:

8 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Perhaps we will learn more as time progresses but we don't know and I prefer to just say I don't know at this time.

If you don't know then why are you claiming this to be the reality of death?

10 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I am a caregiver for the dieing and trust me there is no consciousness or the ability to respond once the kidneys shut down and the death gurgling starts.  

I could give you countless examples of people in your exact situation why would swear up and down the complete opposite of what you said to be true. You're position holds no authority to the truth claims you espouse as their are hundreds if not thousands of cases of caregivers who claim to have experienced proof of the afterlife in their line of work.

13 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

It is common for people to want to glamorize death, to have immortality, this is the ego talking and I have no issue with this whatever works for you, analogize away and I will even add that death is a bad ass thing to do, there is nothing more intense or final or scary and it is not an easy journey to traverse, thank god the conciouosness goes, seriously to witness the body dying is shocking to say the least. It is traumatizing ask any nurse or doctor, it never gets easier. 

One could say it's equally as egotistical to state one's beliefs as scientific fact. Materialists often times have a bad habit of insisting that they alone are objective, and hold the objective scientific truth. That they alone use the powers of reason and logic and evidence in order to justify their positions, while the rest of the populace that doesn't believe as they do are 'misinformed' and 'irrational'. Merely attempting to satisfy an emotional desire as opposed to them.

Is this not the human ego at work?

It's rather egotistical if you ask me to exclude oneself of any notion of bias, and to assume that you alone are being truly objective. That you alone hold the real truth while the rest are living a fairy tale, and while you alone are devoid of placing emotional attatchment to your beliefs. That you alone are able to utilize logic and reason correctly and reach the correct conclusions, and that anyone who doesn't reach the same logical conclusions that you do are 'illogical' and 'irrational'. They're considered 'unreasonable', as you alone are the true arbiters of reason. That you alone don't even have 'beliefs', as your 'beliefs' are the scientific facts, and that therefore anyone who disagrees with you is arguing against your facts.

And you wanna talk about me being egotistical because I believe in the afterlife? Of course that's the case because you alone are immune to the human ego.

I know I'm coming down on you hard here, Try not to take it to personally as I'm primarily speaking to the notion of materialism in general. I am just so sick of materialist dogmas masquerading as objective scientific truth, when in reality it acts more like religious dogma than anything else.

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Wes4747
15 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

The real point of this thread is a HOPE that there is life after death, due to the fear of losing oneself forever. That what this is all about. People looking for something materialistic to stand on and say "It is so". That it. Like so many other threads that follow similar ideas. People are afraid of death and they'll believe anything for a shred of hope. 

Disagreed. No hope for me, the outcome doesnt matter to me at all. But discussing possibilities of reported phenomena is less than harmless, might even be productive given a chance.

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XenoFish
13 minutes ago, Wes4747 said:

Disagreed. No hope for me, the outcome doesnt matter to me at all. But discussing possibilities of reported phenomena is less than harmless, might even be productive given a chance.

Yeah and I mention that as a thought experiment that reincarnation might mean rebirth as a new person in the multiverse, but that got ignored

I'm a bit cynical when it comes to threads like this.

Edited by XenoFish

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Sherapy
19 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

And how do you know this? This is a belief you've posited based on evidence that you (or some other authority that you believe) has interpreted to be correct.

I don't mean to be such a hard ass about this, I'm simply asking for a little honesty and consistency. I know you can be quick to point out when someone is stating their beliefs as facts, but then you make a belief-based statement like this ^ as fact, when in reality it's just your belief based on interpretation. I have no problem stating that this is my belief based on interpretation, so why do so many materialists insist that their interpretation is fact? It honestly comes off as insecure. :hmm:

If you don't know then why are you claiming this to be the reality of death?

I could give you countless examples of people in your exact situation why would swear up and down the complete opposite of what you said to be true. You're position holds no authority to the truth claims you espouse as their are hundreds if not thousands of cases of caregivers who claim to have experienced proof of the afterlife in their line of work.

One could say it's equally as egotistical to state one's beliefs as scientific fact. Materialists often times have a bad habit of insisting that they alone are objective, and hold the objective scientific truth. That they alone use the powers of reason and logic and evidence in order to justify their positions, while the rest of the populace that doesn't believe as they do are 'misinformed' and 'irrational'. Merely attempting to satisfy an emotional desire as opposed to them.

Is this not the human ego at work?

It's rather egotistical if you ask me to exclude oneself of any notion of bias, and to assume that you alone are being truly objective. That you alone hold the real truth while the rest are living a fairy tale, and while you alone are devoid of placing emotional attatchment to your beliefs. That you alone are able to utilize logic and reason correctly and reach the correct conclusions, and that anyone who doesn't reach the same logical conclusions that you do are 'illogical' and 'irrational'. They're considered 'unreasonable', as you alone are the true arbiters of reason. That you alone don't even have 'beliefs', as your 'beliefs' are the scientific facts, and that therefore anyone who disagrees with you is arguing against your facts.

And you wanna talk about me being egotistical because I believe in the afterlife? Of course that's the case because you alone are immune to the human ego.

I know I'm coming down on you hard here, Try not to take it to personally as I'm primarily speaking to the notion of materialism in general. I am just so sick of materialist dogmas masquerading as objective scientific truth, when in reality it acts more like religious dogma than anything else.

AK, it is a tough subject, death is not fun or easy to face. This is natural.

I can see I scared you, I apologize.

Yes, I am sharing my training as a Hospice caregiver. Prior to the actual death process which is the body organs shutting down  and yes the turning point is the kidneys shutting down, this is how we know death has begun there are death signs and one of them is no longer conscious, no longer able to respond that part of them is gone. 

Yes, lots of caregivers have beliefs or a way to cope, and yes some would make claims that they believe life goes on. 

I am only addressing the physical side of death, you would be shocked paitients that want to know what happens, that is unnerving. . 

Let me end this with for whatever this is worth to you and if it is nothing, fair enough.

Again, I can be straight to the point, but understand I don't blame you for not wanting to hear this. 

No worries, I am not offended by you.

You are a sweet kid.

We all find ways to cope and yes, a lot of people including caregivers cope by hope of an afterlife. Geez, I say whatever works for you.

Edited by Sherapy
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Aquila King
21 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

The real point of this thread is a HOPE that there is life after death, due to the fear of losing oneself forever. That what this is all about. People looking for something materialistic to stand on and say "It is so". That it. Like so many other threads that follow similar ideas. People are afraid of death and they'll believe anything for a shred of hope. 

 

17 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You don't claim proof to anything unless it anecdotal.

To get by to my point all of this boils down to Terror Management.

 

The sheer level of condescension and arrogance from this is astounding to me.

Of course this is the case for some people. But to lump us all together into some sort of fear brigade is appallingly prejudiced. Need I remind you that I was a staunch atheist for about six months before accepting the spiritual? If I was so damn terrified of the afterlife, then why the hell did I spend months on forums like this one vehemently fighting against the whole concept? There are countless examples of 'atheist turned believer' out there, and they poke the biggest damn hole in your argument that it renders it just plain silly.

You don't know me or what I've been through. I used to have weeks of sleepless nights over the fear of going to hell. During my suicidal years while I was a Christian I used to yearn for there not to be an afterlife so that when I killed myself I wouldn't go to hell. When I finally abandoned Christianity I was overjoyed and rejuvenated knowing that I wouldn't have to live this miserable life forever. That my actions today wouldn't have any eternal affect on me. I had never felt more free in my life. And honestly now that I'm back to once again believing in some sort of an afterlife, I feel a heavy burden once more. The burden of knowing that my actions have eternal repercussions, and that I'll ultimately have to be more strict with myself because I'll end up living forever.

Do you seriously think that living forever is a relaxing cushy concept? Maybe for stupid people who can't think past the end of their nose, but not me. I understand the implications and I'm most certainly not the only one. Hell, there are days in which I actually wish that there isn't an afterlife so that when I die I can 'relax' so to speak.

Don't even try to speak so condescendingly towards those you don't personally understand, because it'll get you nowhere. I'd like to be friendly with you Xeno despite our disagreements, but sometimes you need just a good swift kick in the ass.

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XenoFish
5 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Don't even try to speak so condescendingly towards those you don't personally understand, because it'll get you nowhere. I'd like to be friendly with you Xeno despite our disagreements, but sometimes you need just a good swift kick in the ass.

Do not assume I'm directly talking to you. First off you know absolutely nothing about me. Second of all being an internet tough guy will get you nowhere with me. If we actually met, you'd speak differently towards me. I promise you that kid.

I've been through a lot more misery that you can imagine. And I hope there is nothing after this life.

Edited by XenoFish
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XenoFish

Aquila you got kids? A family of your own? Have you lost a child? I have. 3 of them. I can not accept a god that would take a life. I can not accept an afterlife where my kids could be in hell due to some belief systems. I'd rather accept that they are just gone. Now a memory, but you wouldn't understand that would you. Have you seen someone die of lung cancer? A man who was a role model to you and fought in WW2. Died and the last things I said to him was "It's okay to go." those words and his grip on my hand, that haunts me. Then seeing your grandmother die of the very same thing you have. To see her lifeless body kept alive by machines, no brain functions at all. No response, because dead is dead no matter how much we hope. It never changes. But if wishful thinking makes your life better do it. I just don't care anymore.

So don't you dare assume anything of me child.

Edited by XenoFish
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Aquila King
11 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

AK, it is a tough subject, death is not fun or easy to face. This is natural.

I can see I scared you, I apologize.

Yes, I am sharing my training as a Hospice caregiver. Prior to the actual death process which is the body organs shutting down  and yes the turning point is the kidneys shutting down, this is how we know death has begun there are death signs and one of them is no longer conscious, no longer able to respond that part of them is gone. 

Yes, lots of caregivers have beliefs or a way to cope, and yes some would make claims that they believe life gets on. 

I am only addressing the physical side of death. 

Let me end this with for whatever this is worth to you and if it is nothing, fair enough.

Again, I can be straight to the point, but understand I don't blame you for not wanting to hear this. 

No worries, I am not offended by you.

You are a sweet kid.

We all find ways to cope and yes, a lot of people including caregivers some more than others. 

I'm not scared, I'm just a little PO'd and fed up. Not at you, at just a certain philosophy out there atm...

I disagree with you, but I respect your belifs and I do thank you for sharing.

I myself spent 2 years on and off dealing with hospice and hospice nurses when my step-dad was dying of cancer. He was the only real thing close to a father to me, so I totally understand the pain associated with it. I'm sorry you have to go through that, but the work you're doing is real special and I commend you for that.

Now I'mma go calm down with some cat videos on youtube or something. I wish you all the best of luck.

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Sherapy
10 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

 

 

The sheer level of condescension and arrogance from this is astounding to me.

Of course this is the case for some people. But to lump us all together into some sort of fear brigade is appallingly prejudiced. Need I remind you that I was a staunch atheist for about six months before accepting the spiritual? If I was so damn terrified of the afterlife, then why the hell did I spend months on forums like this one vehemently fighting against the whole concept? There are countless examples of 'atheist turned believer' out there, and they poke the biggest damn hole in your argument that it renders it just plain silly.

You don't know me or what I've been through. I used to have weeks of sleepless nights over the fear of going to hell. During my suicidal years while I was a Christian I used to yearn for there not to be an afterlife so that when I killed myself I wouldn't go to hell. When I finally abandoned Christianity I was overjoyed and rejuvenated knowing that I wouldn't have to live this miserable life forever. That my actions today wouldn't have any eternal affect on me. I had never felt more free in my life. And honestly now that I'm back to once again believing in some sort of an afterlife, I feel a heavy burden once more. The burden of knowing that my actions have eternal repercussions, and that I'll ultimately have to be more strict with myself because I'll end up living forever.

Do you seriously think that living forever is a relaxing cushy concept? Maybe for stupid people who can't think past the end of their nose, but not me. I understand the implications and I'm most certainly not the only one. Hell, there are days in which I actually wish that there isn't an afterlife so that when I die I can 'relax' so to speak.

Don't even try to speak so condescendingly towards those you don't personally understand, because it'll get you nowhere. I'd like to be friendly with you Xeno despite our disagreements, but sometimes you need just a good swift kick in the ass.

Hey hey hey this is a tough subject for us all let's not turn on each other it won't do anything productive or help.

I am so sorry to hear what you dealt with as a Christian, I am glad you found the courage to get away.

I went through the same thing, by myself  the whole hell thing was too much to take as a 7 year old. 

Honestly, I feel the same way about an afterlife, oh hell no. 

I want to be dead and worm food. I am hoping for this. This gives me tremendous hope.

 

 

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XenoFish

You want to know the real afterlife?

It's a memory. The idea of someone you knew. They exist to you for as long as you live within your mind. A mental construct of who they were. It is never truly them, but its as close as you'll ever get. Then you honor their memory at the graveyard, you invoke them when you ask , "What would X say about this?". As for consciousness without life, I need evidence for that and years of summoning the dead, showed me nothing. And to be honest that hurt like hell.

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Aquila King
6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I can not accept an afterlife where my kids could be in hell due to some belief systems. I'd rather accept that they are just gone.

 

3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I want to be dead and worm food. I am hoping for this. This gives me tremendous hope.

 

This ^ is exactly what I'm asking for. Just a bit of honesty of our own humanity. To not pretend like the reason we take the positions we do is solely for the sake of scientific evidence. We all have **** that we gotta deal with in life, that more often then not ends up shaping our own biases and our own conclusions. It's what makes us all human.

I just can't stand it when people would rather pretend to be robots or freaking vulcuns from star trek then to just admit that they're just as ****ing human as the rest of us.

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