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Frank_Hoenedge

Mayan Relief works - Artistic Pinnacle?

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Many years ago it was commented in the book The Mayan Prophecies by Adrian Gilbert and Maurice Cotterell that during analysis of items such as:

The Sarcophagus lid from Palenque; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K'inich_Janaab'_Pakal#/media/File:Pacal_the_Great_tomb_lid.svg

and the Calendar stone

That Acetate tracings of the details were left on a table, which when observed again at angles seemed to indicate a deeper story than the relief itself would translate.

 

If the Mayan's were consuming DMT in the form of Ayahuasca brew then such a focusing stone could possibly be interpreted in a single position.

 

Is the level of artistic influence, given their astronomical calendar, also a pinnacle of their race or was it simply a byproduct of drug-fueled extravagance?

 

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One hell of a thing. All cultural appropriation aside it would be comedy to watch

 

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In North America the use of drugs in sweat lodges had a religious significance and men would meet their spirit guides to face themselves. I am not that well informed on the subject and leave it at that. There are other members that would have a greater understanding on the subject like Piney maybe he will be better equipped to comment.

jmccr8 

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...I think you need to better describe what you mean by "deeper story." Weasel words like that make it seem like you can't or won't provide a clearer meaning, so it sort of feels like you're stacking the deck against a rational discussion.

--Jaylemurph

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1 hour ago, jaylemurph said:

...I think you need to better describe what you mean by "deeper story." Weasel words like that make it seem like you can't or won't provide a clearer meaning, so it sort of feels like you're stacking the deck against a rational discussion.

--Jaylemurph

Mein Gott!!! The name of the site is" unexplained mysteries". The moderator for this part of the forum is a Chicagoan fixated on cats and one of the least useful civilizations in history (Egypt), and you honestly expect rational discussion?

I expect geyser powered funiculars, Greenland lifting its petticoat to hopscotch around the Atlantic, and the foothills around Visoko region of Bosnia to be interpreted as Osmanich asserts. Sprinkle in a bit of reverence for the Annunaki, forget Angkor Wat was built within recorded history, and recognize the SCA (sinister cabalistic academics) want to steer humankind from the righteous Basset path toward a life of demonic feline servitude.

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5 hours ago, Jarocal said:

...and recognize the SCA (sinister cabalistic academics) want to steer humankind from the righteous Basset path toward a life of demonic feline servitude.

We're doing an excellent job of it, aren't we?

giphy.gif

Long live our beloved benevolent Feline Overlords!

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13 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

In North America the use of drugs in sweat lodges had a religious significance and men would meet their spirit guides to face themselves. I am not that well informed on the subject and leave it at that. There are other members that would have a greater understanding on the subject like Piney maybe he will be better equipped to comment.

jmccr8 

I thought you and Moses spent a lot of time in the sweat lodge, after your binge sessions. I've actually been in a sweat lodge quite a few times. This was many years ago, back when I still had hair, and it was in the tradition of the Northern Plains. No mind-altering substances for us.

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34 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

I thought you and Moses spent a lot of time in the sweat lodge, after your binge sessions. I've actually been in a sweat lodge quite a few times. This was many years ago, back when I still had hair, and it was in the tradition of the Northern Plains. No mind-altering substances for us.

That is true but when one is doing a spiritual search there is a medicine man and the use of drugs from what I was told by two individuals that I knew back in the 70's. I have been in sweat lodges myself on a couple of occasions an there were no drugs then either just burning sweetgrass and a couple of other plant material and chanting.Actually Moses and I just use the old hair of the dog method after binges but then we don't drink the cheap stuff so recovery is not so difficult and half the time we are in the spirit world anyway.:innocent::whistle::w00t: Moses does a lot off praying and I give him a lot of reasons to pray.:lol:

jmccr8

 

y

Edited by jmccr8
amended for clarity
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15 hours ago, Frank_Hoenedge said:

Many years ago it was commented in the book The Mayan Prophecies by Adrian Gilbert and Maurice Cotterell that during analysis of items such as:

The Sarcophagus lid from Palenque; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K'inich_Janaab'_Pakal#/media/File:Pacal_the_Great_tomb_lid.svg

and the Calendar stone

That Acetate tracings of the details were left on a table, which when observed again at angles seemed to indicate a deeper story than the relief itself would translate.

 

If the Mayan's were consuming DMT in the form of Ayahuasca brew then such a focusing stone could possibly be interpreted in a single position.

 

Is the level of artistic influence, given their astronomical calendar, also a pinnacle of their race or was it simply a byproduct of drug-fueled extravagance?

 

No more than any other culture. The quest for intoxication is a common thread throughout history in all civilizations and peoples.

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18 hours ago, Frank_Hoenedge said:

One hell of a thing. All cultural appropriation aside it would be comedy to watch

 

 

Why is that Frank  ? 

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16 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

In North America the use of drugs in sweat lodges had a religious significance and men would meet their spirit guides to face themselves

Drugs are not used in plains tradition lodges, Lakota Blackfeet, and others.  In a good sweat with an experienced intercessor, you need no drugs. Sweats are to pray and purify, it can be done frequently in every day life. A great thing about this tradition is that there is no fixed dogma as you would associate with an organized church.  Each person develops a personal relationship with the spirit world, and each teacher teaches as he has learned.  Great arguments arise over this at times.  There is no "right" way.  As you go through your life, you find your own understanding and may diverge from your teachers practices. 

There are sweats during a Vision quest too, can be once or twice a day for the helpers and supporters.   The vision  questors, crying for a vision, sweat before they go up on the mountain and four days later when they come back. On the mountain, they pray, they might sing, smoke a form of tobacco, but no drugs or alcohol. Being alone without food and water for four days puts you in the frame of mind to look deeply into yourself.  People might go on one or many vision quests.  It may be to look for power, it may be to seek understanding. A big part for young people is to begin to figure out how to live their lives in a good way and find their place in their community.  Spirit animals are not the primary goal.  Something may come to you and resonate, but such a visitation is not necessary to gain much from the experience.

Peyote intercessors called road men  conduct ceremonies , not usually in sweat lodges that use peyote of course.  Other forms of mind altering substances like datura, tobacco, and ayahuasca are used by a variety of folks for various reasons.

If you ever have a chance to participate in  a traditional Lakota inipi (sweat), I encourage you to do so.  It is much more visceral and tuned to the human condition than anything a New Age practitioner can make up.  Don't take in expectations or ask too many questions, just experience it.  You will be safe.  A good intercessor takes care of everybody in the ceremony and does not let anything get out of hand.. You don't need to be a shaman, just an ordinary person.  Experience the depth of your life and your connections to others.  It is enough.

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44 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

Why is that Frank  ? 

Not to speak for frank, heh heh, but i would imagine one who had never witnessed such an experience-let alone taken part in one-a person might have all kinds of fanciful ideas of what that would look like.

I spent about 9 hours by a fire in a tent staring at a crystal like rock i had picked up beside the river earlier that day. The changes taking place in my psyche were truly lifechanging, but wouldn't have made a great tv show...

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18 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

In North America the use of drugs in sweat lodges had a religious significance and men would meet their spirit guides to face themselves. I am not that well informed on the subject and leave it at that. There are other members that would have a greater understanding on the subject like Piney maybe he will be better equipped to comment.

jmccr8 

You've misunderstood, the overlay of acetate sheets allowed a deeper story to emerge in the interpretations of the book, there was nothing 'hidden' about it, and no rabbit hole.

 

The rational discussion is whether or not it is an intended design aspect or an extension of artistic licence in the reporting observer.

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10 minutes ago, Frank_Hoenedge said:

You've misunderstood, the overlay of acetate sheets allowed a deeper story to emerge in the interpretations of the book, there was nothing 'hidden' about it, and no rabbit hole.

 

The rational discussion is whether or not it is an intended design aspect or an extension of artistic licence in the reporting observer.

Np I thonk the desogn was deliberate and may have had a ritual that was enacted through it was all I was suggesting and for clarification I don't know enoigh about it and was not inferring that I was speaking from a position of authority.

jmccr8

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2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Drugs are not used in plains tradition lodges, Lakota Blackfeet, and others.  In a good sweat with an experienced intercessor, you need no drugs. Sweats are to pray and purify, it can be done frequently in every day life. A great thing about this tradition is that there is no fixed dogma as you would associate with an organized church.  Each person develops a personal relationship with the spirit world, and each teacher teaches as he has learned.  Great arguments arise over this at times.  There is no "right" way.  As you go through your life, you find your own understanding and may diverge from your teachers practices. 

There are sweats during a Vision quest too, can be once or twice a day for the helpers and supporters.   The vision  questors, crying for a vision, sweat before they go up on the mountain and four days later when they come back. On the mountain, they pray, they might sing, smoke a form of tobacco, but no drugs or alcohol. Being alone without food and water for four days puts you in the frame of mind to look deeply into yourself.  People might go on one or many vision quests.  It may be to look for power, it may be to seek understanding. A big part for young people is to begin to figure out how to live their lives in a good way and find their place in their community.  Spirit animals are not the primary goal.  Something may come to you and resonate, but such a visitation is not necessary to gain much from the experience.

Peyote intercessors called road men  conduct ceremonies , not usually in sweat lodges that use peyote of course.  Other forms of mind altering substances like datura, tobacco, and ayahuasca are used by a variety of folks for various reasons.

If you ever have a chance to participate in  a traditional Lakota inipi (sweat), I encourage you to do so.  It is much more visceral and tuned to the human condition than anything a New Age practitioner can make up.  Don't take in expectations or ask too many questions, just experience it.  You will be safe.  A good intercessor takes care of everybody in the ceremony and does not let anything get out of hand.. You don't need to be a shaman, just an ordinary person.  Experience the depth of your life and your connections to others.  It is enough.

Thank you for you input and yes I agree with you description as that was my experience in as sweat lodge.the two fellows that I knew had travelled to SW USA.for the experience that they had and like I said it was the 70s so it may not have been traditional practice but do recall that there was payote and mesqite involed.

jmccr8

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On 9/27/2017 at 3:14 PM, jmccr8 said:

In North America the use of drugs in sweat lodges had a religious significance and men would meet their spirit guides to face themselves. I am not that well informed on the subject and leave it at that. There are other members that would have a greater understanding on the subject like Piney maybe he will be better equipped to comment.

jmccr8 

Aye soz lad, meant this one

22 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

...I think you need to better describe what you mean by "deeper story." Weasel words like that make it seem like you can't or won't provide a clearer meaning, so it sort of feels like you're stacking the deck against a rational discussion.

--Jaylemurph

 

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1 hour ago, Frank_Hoenedge said:

Aye soz lad, meant this one

 

Okay

jmccr8 

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14 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

Not to speak for frank,

You may as well, doesn't look like he is gonna fess up . 

14 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

 

 

heh heh, but i would imagine one who had never witnessed such an experience-let alone taken part in one-a person might have all kinds of fanciful ideas of what that would look like.

I spent about 9 hours by a fire in a tent staring at a crystal like rock i had picked up beside the river earlier that day. The changes taking place in my psyche were truly lifechanging, but wouldn't have made a great tv show...

 

Were you on peyote  ?    :D 

I have a 'pet rock' that did that to me !     It contains a story  ( by detecting its composition and arrangement )  of  moving from ancient Antarctica to Australia's present location, being  ejected from a volcano weathered as a river rock, picked up by a glacier, taken out to sea, fallen to the bottom into mud, being encased in mudstone, coming back to the surface, being exposed by massive fault subduction, being eroded again by a river   ( so the original volcanic rock is embedded in and protruding out of the mudstone river rock ) .

That would make a great visual for tv show  :)     But not me sitting there staring at it

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4 hours ago, Frank_Hoenedge said:

Aye soz lad, meant this one

 

...well, that clears everything right up.

*sigh*

--Jaylemurph

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19 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

...well, that clears everything right up.

*sigh*

--Jaylemurph

Maybe if he got off the phone when trying to talk to others it would be clearer  ?

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3 hours ago, back to earth said:

You may as well, doesn't look like he is gonna fess up . 

 

Were you on peyote  ?    :D 

I have a 'pet rock' that did that to me !     It contains a story  ( by detecting its composition and arrangement )  of  moving from ancient Antarctica to Australia's present location, being  ejected from a volcano weathered as a river rock, picked up by a glacier, taken out to sea, fallen to the bottom into mud, being encased in mudstone, coming back to the surface, being exposed by massive fault subduction, being eroded again by a river   ( so the original volcanic rock is embedded in and protruding out of the mudstone river rock ) .

That would make a great visual for tv show  :)     But not me sitting there staring at it

Something similar lol

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On 9/28/2017 at 7:15 AM, back to earth said:

 

Why is that Frank  ? 

Wes is right, however compared with the final scenes of Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull a man stood reading a book that is only fully read when he's tripping balls is a lot more joyful.

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On 9/27/2017 at 7:05 AM, Frank_Hoenedge said:

Many years ago it was commented in the book The Mayan Prophecies by Adrian Gilbert and Maurice Cotterell that during analysis of items such as:

The Sarcophagus lid from Palenque; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K'inich_Janaab'_Pakal#/media/File:Pacal_the_Great_tomb_lid.svg

and the Calendar stone

That Acetate tracings of the details were left on a table, which when observed again at angles seemed to indicate a deeper story than the relief itself would translate.

If the Mayan's were consuming DMT in the form of Ayahuasca brew then such a focusing stone could possibly be interpreted in a single position.

Is the level of artistic influence, given their astronomical calendar, also a pinnacle of their race or was it simply a byproduct of drug-fueled extravagance?

 

Or it's an example of how cultural things can look odd to someone who's not from that culture.  Their style was developed from regional influences over a long period of time and from other cultures.  

The vine grows in South America, over a thousand miles away from the areas where the Aztecs lived (the Aztecs did the Calendar Stone, and it was found in Mexico City.)  The Mayas lived in Central America, in southern Mexico/Guatemala, etc.  That's still over a thousand miles away from the vines.  DMT/Ayahuasca seems very unlikely.

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1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Or it's an example of how cultural things can look odd to someone who's not from that culture.  Their style was developed from regional influences over a long period of time and from other cultures.  

The vine grows in South America, over a thousand miles away from the areas where the Aztecs lived (the Aztecs did the Calendar Stone, and it was found in Mexico City.)  The Mayas lived in Central America, in southern Mexico/Guatemala, etc.  That's still over a thousand miles away from the vines.  DMT/Ayahuasca seems very unlikely.

It's not at all unlikely. Whether it happened remains to be seen. There was extensive trade by raft and canoe up and down the coast from Mexico to Peru. Large rafts with sails were reported by the Spanish who first sailed those waters. Corn made it's way from Mexico to Cuzco, so it's far from beyond the realm of possibility that Ayahuasca was exported to Mesoamerica. 

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