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Outlawing faith


Wes4747

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12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Love does not cause a crime of passion. Indeed love will stop you hurting anyone.  Jealously envy selfishness possessiveness  etc., now yes they do harm.

This is far too simplistic a view. Emotions are entwined on a fundamental level and our definitions are poor attempts to separate them. 

There is no need for us to discuss this topic further, I now understand your position and we'll endlessly disagree.

You have moved away from the original argument we were having, you ignore the contradictions I point out and offer no explanation. You barely address a single question I ask but rather shift the goalposts to suit your argument.

All of this is a shame because our views on many things align quite nicely. Where we differ is in how the mind really works. I've experienced things you have not and this is why I know you to be wrong in this regard. This is just like you with your God connection and psychic powers. You say I can't understand because I haven't experienced them, well, you need to apply this same logic to yourself.

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

To know Faith, one's own very personal Faith, is to walk in it's garden, alone. Some gardens are beautiful, awash with the color and the fragrance of flowers, redolent with their perfumes and riotous with the songs of myriad birds. Others are dreary places, unloved and forgotten, "unweeded gardens, gone to seed. Things rank and gross in nature possess them, merely." I find it curious yet inspiring  that even some who profess to know not God abide in the most beautiful of gardens. One's statement of Faith is who one is, what one is, how one is and what one says. It is the person, themselves, who is the statement of their Faith and none other.

Beautiful! 

And true. 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

That is not true. I am in control of self to a very high degree, and that is all I am talking about. I am not in control of others or of nature but by controlling self i can improve my interactions and survivability with others and nature. there is no physical flaw in the human mind or body which stops us completely taking control of our thoughts and behaviours in a conscious and considered way, but to gain total control takes practice and effort, and hence time. 

it is an illusion, and a dangerous one, to believe that circumstances outside our control, control us That, because we are hungry, we have to kill or steal to survive, for example.  That we are not always, and totally, responsible for our own thoughts and behaviors .EVERY human can chose the thoughts they construct and EVERY adult, functioning, human has the physical abilty to control,their body by application of mind, will and discipline   Just because few exercise this abilty does not negate its existence in us all      

That is just BS, Walker.  Our brains, for one thing, react to stimulus before we even know we are reacting to it.  My guess is you have never cared for a person with dementia.  .I have three times over, plus having a disease of the central nervous system myself.   I have often wonder how people who think we are nothing but soul explain dementia.  When people get dementia their whole personality changes. I had a neighbor couple, the wife was as sweet as she could be. After she got alzheimer's she completely changed.  They went for a walk past my house every morning, but one day she decided she did want to go for a walk and turned on her husband, it took two of us to pull her off him.  He ended up having to put her in a nursing home that could handle violent patients.  I sat with him one evening while he tried to understand why the loving wife was gone and who had taken her place. His christian faith didn't hold any answers for him.   

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14 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Beautiful! 

 

Yours is a particularly lovely one. I've sometimes admired it's serenity, in the early morning light, gazed across the shimmering expanse of it's lush parterres and sniffed the rich bouquet of it's roses. Now, I've picked only a few roses in my life and was often pricked by their thorns, but I have admired a great many, from afar.

 

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56 minutes ago, Will Due said:

@Stubbly_Dooright please share with us your subjective experiences regarding your faith in God. I don't think I've seen you post anything about it. 

Is that an order, or just asking? ;)   

Knowing you, I'm kidding on that, and feel great curiosity from you. :) 

Well, my subjective experiences is about my faith, my spirituality, and such, but I wouldn't put it toward God. I don't think of God, as most do, when it comes to seeing things in a spiritual point of view. Will, I'm sure you have noticed, I pretty much describe it as seeing it as a general 'higher power', and even that, that is not necessarily drawn out, like in the manner of how God is usually seen as. And, as you know about me, growing up secular, I never really had an idea, or 'concept' as maybe 'one' would put it, or such of God as most see it. Regarding the beginnings of my 'spiritual' or faith experiences, I often describe to others, that 'it could be' God who sent it to me. I want to point out, 'could be' Maybe God did it, maybe not. *shrugs* 

Though, I'm not saying that I feel strongly that it was not a spiritual gift at all, but that it was a spiritual gift from some other paranormal or higher being type entity. I could even entertain it was a gift from ghosts, (down folks, down, I'm just entertaining it and in a subjective manner), but in the end, being my faith or spiritual experience being of God, I really can't say that it's God. But, yes, I feel strongly that I have, had, will still have, party in, and enjoy, and get enlighten, within a spiritual experiences and feel a faith toward them. 

I feel, that I have to note in my opinion, when I post here in the 'Spirituality, Religion, and Beliefs' section, it seems that it's one particular one, and always assumed as Christianity. When I feel it's about all of them, or it would be labeled as one particular one, right? So, I would think it can be seen that I have a strong religious and faith experience path, just not seeing as in the popular one. 

My experiences, come from within, as messages I myself interpret, but feel that my behaviors, actions, and attitudes than reflects it in how I play it out with my life, private and public. And with just me,myself, and I, and with every type of person involved in my life. I feel, that we all have this. I'm not saying, we all definitely have this, just that I feel in the subjective sense, that I'm entertaining it to be. How someone else sees how they believe or don't believe, is their very right in seeing it as they see fit. And believe it or not, I totally understand that. :yes: 

Now, here's something else, I hope you will respect and understand Will. There is a lot in my belief system and my spiritual experiences, I'm not going to discuss. I won't, because I feel strongly that it's my private thing. But, I can understand other's feelings in their experiences, and will discuss my feelings just the same. As there many different aspects in many different religions and beliefs, mine is just that as well. I guess the difference is, I don't proselytize it, (which my belief strictly prohibits in pushing and receiving.) and I feel comfortable in just me being it, or if others suddenly have felt the same way and we're all in the same situation. :yes:  :) Let's just, my faith in things, with pertaining with my belief, is very very very strong, that I don't need to get someone else to see it the same way as well. 

I'm sorry, Will, that I will not describe my experiences, the numerous amounts of them, in personal detail, because that's how I see them. Personal. I also see them as private. I guess, that's why I feel very strong in understand subjectivity and objectivity when it comes to spiritual paths, because I think seeing the differences is very important in how you go about your path and then mingle with others in different paths. Division stunts growth, and inclusion stimulates it, in my feeling. 

Yeah, I know, how can I stimulate, if a lot is kept private with my belief. Well, I feel, again, that my behavior, actions, and words, will reflect in thought provoking ideas, and thus speak for itself in the end. :yes: 

But, if to sum up the answer to your question, Will, let's just say, things that have occurred, that sparked a wonder in me, brought about a path that kept getting better. 

Maybe that'll help in explaining it or not. I just hope you understand and that what I have posted kind of answers your question. :) 

Quote

But perhaps you have and I just missed it.

Both ... *shrugs* maybe........ Like I said, I've spoken what I can, and the rest has been private and I apologize of that.... in a way. 

44 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

To know Faith, one's own very personal Faith, is to walk in it's garden, alone. Some gardens are beautiful, awash with the color and the fragrance of flowers, redolent with their perfumes and riotous with the songs of myriad birds. Others are dreary places, unloved and forgotten, "unweeded gardens, gone to seed. Things rank and gross in nature possess them, merely." I find it curious yet inspiring  that even some who profess to know not God abide in the most beautiful of gardens. One's statement of Faith is who one is, what one is, how one is and what one says. It is the person, themselves, who is the statement of their Faith and none other.

As if this doesn't already back up my feelings of subjectivity when it comes to faith. 

................ uh, ..................... sorry Hammie. :blush:  

 

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30 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yours is a particularly lovely one. I've sometimes admired it's serenity, in the early morning light, gazed across the shimmering expanse of it's lush parterres and sniffed the rich bouquet of it's roses. Now, I've picked only a few roses in my life and was often pricked by their thorns, but I have admired a great many, from afar.

 

I have thorns too, without them I can’t grow, and am not living my life. 

I do agree you are Christian to emulate on the better days ( said in compassion and empathy) because you don’t limit yourself to lip service, you share your humanity warts and all. 

 

Faith to me is an inner  trust, a certainty of action based on the confidence I have cultivated from the experiences ( opportunities) I have taken to nurture it and at times I see the grace, the zen, the reality, the happenstance etc. and seize the moment and at times I miss it completely. 

 

It is by way of practice with the life we have, the circumstances we have,  and how we experience them that define us, speak for us. IMHO

In part, the stories we tell, the experiences we share are our choices, our behaviors expressed. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yours is a particularly lovely one. I've sometimes admired it's serenity, in the early morning light, gazed across the shimmering expanse of it's lush parterres and sniffed the rich bouquet of it's roses. Now, I've picked only a few roses in my life and was often pricked by their thorns, but I have admired a great many, from afar.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

That is just BS, Walker.  Our brains, for one thing, react to stimulus before we even know we are reacting to it.  My guess is you have never cared for a person with dementia.  .I have three times over, plus having a disease of the central nervous system myself.   I have often wonder how people who think we are nothing but soul explain dementia.  When people get dementia their whole personality changes. I had a neighbor couple, the wife was as sweet as she could be. After she got alzheimer's she completely changed.  They went for a walk past my house every morning, but one day she decided she did want to go for a walk and turned on her husband, it took two of us to pull her off him.  He ended up having to put her in a nursing home that could handle violent patients.  I sat with him one evening while he tried to understand why the loving wife was gone and who had taken her place. His christian faith didn't hold any answers for him.   

Exactly, Grandpa! ( And (((HUGS)))  .. ) 

There was someone in the family who had alzheimer's, ( she has since passed away ) and I remember seeing a very talkative person turn into a very quiet reclusive individual. There is also another family member now who has dementia, and their behavior is described as the same way, you described it in your post. If anything, if I could bring up my experiences in my car accident in 1989 where I got a concussion, I was conscious during immediate aftermath of the accident, ( someone was driving and told me this), but I don't remember it and was still talking and saying things that didn't make sense. (yes, again, I bring up the question I was told I was asking for a pet cat named a certain name, but never ever owned) Gee, how could I control that? My head punched a hole in the windshield! 

If that could be a good example. *shrugs* 

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8 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Is that an order, or just asking? ;)   

Knowing you, I'm kidding on that, and feel great curiosity from you. :) 

Well, my subjective experiences is about my faith, my spirituality, and such, but I wouldn't put it toward God. I don't think of God, as most do, when it comes to seeing things in a spiritual point of view. Will, I'm sure you have noticed, I pretty much describe it as seeing it as a general 'higher power', and even that, that is not necessarily drawn out, like in the manner of how God is usually seen as. And, as you know about me, growing up secular, I never really had an idea, or 'concept' as maybe 'one' would put it, or such of God as most see it. Regarding the beginnings of my 'spiritual' or faith experiences, I often describe to others, that 'it could be' God who sent it to me. I want to point out, 'could be' Maybe God did it, maybe not. *shrugs* 

Though, I'm not saying that I feel strongly that it was not a spiritual gift at all, but that it was a spiritual gift from some other paranormal or higher being type entity. I could even entertain it was a gift from ghosts, (down folks, down, I'm just entertaining it and in a subjective manner), but in the end, being my faith or spiritual experience being of God, I really can't say that it's God. But, yes, I feel strongly that I have, had, will still have, party in, and enjoy, and get enlighten, within a spiritual experiences and feel a faith toward them. 

I feel, that I have to note in my opinion, when I post here in the 'Spirituality, Religion, and Beliefs' section, it seems that it's one particular one, and always assumed as Christianity. When I feel it's about all of them, or it would be labeled as one particular one, right? So, I would think it can be seen that I have a strong religious and faith experience path, just not seeing as in the popular one. 

My experiences, come from within, as messages I myself interpret, but feel that my behaviors, actions, and attitudes than reflects it in how I play it out with my life, private and public. And with just me,myself, and I, and with every type of person involved in my life. I feel, that we all have this. I'm not saying, we all definitely have this, just that I feel in the subjective sense, that I'm entertaining it to be. How someone else sees how they believe or don't believe, is their very right in seeing it as they see fit. And believe it or not, I totally understand that. :yes: 

Now, here's something else, I hope you will respect and understand Will. There is a lot in my belief system and my spiritual experiences, I'm not going to discuss. I won't, because I feel strongly that it's my private thing. But, I can understand other's feelings in their experiences, and will discuss my feelings just the same. As there many different aspects in many different religions and beliefs, mine is just that as well. I guess the difference is, I don't proselytize it, (which my belief strictly prohibits in pushing and receiving.) and I feel comfortable in just me being it, or if others suddenly have felt the same way and we're all in the same situation. :yes:  :) Let's just, my faith in things, with pertaining with my belief, is very very very strong, that I don't need to get someone else to see it the same way as well. 

I'm sorry, Will, that I will not describe my experiences, the numerous amounts of them, in personal detail, because that's how I see them. Personal. I also see them as private. I guess, that's why I feel very strong in understand subjectivity and objectivity when it comes to spiritual paths, because I think seeing the differences is very important in how you go about your path and then mingle with others in different paths. Division stunts growth, and inclusion stimulates it, in my feeling. 

Yeah, I know, how can I stimulate, if a lot is kept private with my belief. Well, I feel, again, that my behavior, actions, and words, will reflect in thought provoking ideas, and thus speak for itself in the end. :yes: 

But, if to sum up the answer to your question, Will, let's just say, things that have occurred, that sparked a wonder in me, brought about a path that kept getting better. 

Maybe that'll help in explaining it or not. I just hope you understand and that what I have posted kind of answers your question. :) 

Both ... *shrugs* maybe........ Like I said, I've spoken what I can, and the rest has been private and I apologize of that.... in a way. 

As if this doesn't already back up my feelings of subjectivity when it comes to faith. 

................ uh, ..................... sorry Hammie. :blush:  

 

Don't apologize! Your petunias and morning glories are astonishing!;)

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40 minutes ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

That is just BS, Walker.  Our brains, for one thing, react to stimulus before we even know we are reacting to it.  My guess is you have never cared for a person with dementia.  .I have three times over, plus having a disease of the central nervous system myself.   I have often wonder how people who think we are nothing but soul explain dementia.  When people get dementia their whole personality changes. I had a neighbor couple, the wife was as sweet as she could be. After she got alzheimer's she completely changed.  They went for a walk past my house every morning, but one day she decided she did want to go for a walk and turned on her husband, it took two of us to pull her off him.  He ended up having to put her in a nursing home that could handle violent patients.  I sat with him one evening while he tried to understand why the loving wife was gone and who had taken her place. His christian faith didn't hold any answers for him.   

Indeed, the thing is MW claims to have taken care of his wife’s parents that had Alzheimer’s. 

Or you can get a patient with dementia that was a sociopath their whole life and was masking ( hiding it) and dementia strips them of the ability  to do this anymore and they become living monsters, and no facility or psych ward will take them because they are to violent these are the things of nitemares. 

The thing is it is when ones faith is actually tested you see it doesn’t hold up as a solution with real life problems. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Don't apologize! Your petunias and morning glories are astonishing!;)

Awww, shucks :blush:   thanks!!! And, I love morning glories. ....................... yes, petunias too!!

You're .............sooooo........................sweeeeet!!!  :D   

 

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17 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I have thorns too, without them I can’t grow, and am not living my life. 

Thorns are good. It keeps men apprised of boundaries violated, feelings encroached upon. Few roses are without them. Roses, like love, are fragile things requiring a delicate touch. Thorns are there to remind us.

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3 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Thorns are good. It keeps men apprised of boundaries violated, feelings encroached upon. Few roses are without them. Roses, like love, are fragile things requiring a delicate touch. Thorns are there to remind us.

Exactly, thorns ( boundaries) are a good thing as they teach others how to respect us, and trust ( faith) is earned in my world. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Is that an order, or just asking? ;)   

Knowing you, I'm kidding on that, and feel great curiosity from you. :) 

Well, my subjective experiences is about my faith, my spirituality, and such, but I wouldn't put it toward God. I don't think of God, as most do, when it comes to seeing things in a spiritual point of view. Will, I'm sure you have noticed, I pretty much describe it as seeing it as a general 'higher power', and even that, that is not necessarily drawn out, like in the manner of how God is usually seen as. And, as you know about me, growing up secular, I never really had an idea, or 'concept' as maybe 'one' would put it, or such of God as most see it. Regarding the beginnings of my 'spiritual' or faith experiences, I often describe to others, that 'it could be' God who sent it to me. I want to point out, 'could be' Maybe God did it, maybe not. *shrugs* 

Though, I'm not saying that I feel strongly that it was not a spiritual gift at all, but that it was a spiritual gift from some other paranormal or higher being type entity. I could even entertain it was a gift from ghosts, (down folks, down, I'm just entertaining it and in a subjective manner), but in the end, being my faith or spiritual experience being of God, I really can't say that it's God. But, yes, I feel strongly that I have, had, will still have, party in, and enjoy, and get enlighten, within a spiritual experiences and feel a faith toward them. 

I feel, that I have to note in my opinion, when I post here in the 'Spirituality, Religion, and Beliefs' section, it seems that it's one particular one, and always assumed as Christianity. When I feel it's about all of them, or it would be labeled as one particular one, right? So, I would think it can be seen that I have a strong religious and faith experience path, just not seeing as in the popular one. 

My experiences, come from within, as messages I myself interpret, but feel that my behaviors, actions, and attitudes than reflects it in how I play it out with my life, private and public. And with just me,myself, and I, and with every type of person involved in my life. I feel, that we all have this. I'm not saying, we all definitely have this, just that I feel in the subjective sense, that I'm entertaining it to be. How someone else sees how they believe or don't believe, is their very right in seeing it as they see fit. And believe it or not, I totally understand that. :yes: 

Now, here's something else, I hope you will respect and understand Will. There is a lot in my belief system and my spiritual experiences, I'm not going to discuss. I won't, because I feel strongly that it's my private thing. But, I can understand other's feelings in their experiences, and will discuss my feelings just the same. As there many different aspects in many different religions and beliefs, mine is just that as well. I guess the difference is, I don't proselytize it, (which my belief strictly prohibits in pushing and receiving.) and I feel comfortable in just me being it, or if others suddenly have felt the same way and we're all in the same situation. :yes:  :) Let's just, my faith in things, with pertaining with my belief, is very very very strong, that I don't need to get someone else to see it the same way as well. 

I'm sorry, Will, that I will not describe my experiences, the numerous amounts of them, in personal detail, because that's how I see them. Personal. I also see them as private. I guess, that's why I feel very strong in understand subjectivity and objectivity when it comes to spiritual paths, because I think seeing the differences is very important in how you go about your path and then mingle with others in different paths. Division stunts growth, and inclusion stimulates it, in my feeling. 

Yeah, I know, how can I stimulate, if a lot is kept private with my belief. Well, I feel, again, that my behavior, actions, and words, will reflect in thought provoking ideas, and thus speak for itself in the end. :yes: 

But, if to sum up the answer to your question, Will, let's just say, things that have occurred, that sparked a wonder in me, brought about a path that kept getting better. 

Maybe that'll help in explaining it or not. I just hope you understand and that what I have posted kind of answers your question. :) 

Both ... *shrugs* maybe........ Like I said, I've spoken what I can, and the rest has been private and I apologize of that.... in a way. 

As if this doesn't already back up my feelings of subjectivity when it comes to faith. 

................ uh, ..................... sorry Hammie. :blush:  

 

Thanks Stubbly. I appreciate all you do in this forum.

I will tell you that I see things almost identical to how you've described your spiritual religious experiences. I hope you don't mind that I just used the word religious in conjunction with the word spiritual. 

I too feel it's very important to never tell or describe those personal spiritual experiences that light the way personally and subjectively for our transformations. 

I've been talking about the essence of what you have just now described here by using the term "true religion"

I believe what you're experiencing is exactly that, true and spiritual in the greatest sense of what the word religion means. Especially in regard to how these experiences cause growth and a greater appreciation for everything, especially the relationships with others.

It's your sincerity Stubbly, that impresses most. It's a very good thing that I've gotten to know you through participating in UM. :)

 

 

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59 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Thanks Stubbly. I appreciate all you do in this forum.

I will tell you that I see things almost identical to how you've described your spiritual religious experiences. I hope you don't mind that I just used the word religious in conjunction with the word spiritual. 

I too feel it's very important to never tell or describe those personal spiritual experiences that light the way personally and subjectively for our transformations. 

I've been talking about the essence of what you have just now described here by using the term "true religion"

I believe what you're experiencing is exactly that, true and spiritual in the greatest sense of what the word religion means. Especially in regard to how these experiences cause growth and a greater appreciation for everything, especially the relationships with others.

It's your sincerity Stubbly, that impresses most. It's a very good thing that I've gotten to know you through participating in UM. :)

 

 

Will, if all along you share with Stubbs that the essence of true religion are the subjective experiences that lead us to grow and have a better appreciation of everything, especially the chance to have a better relationship with others” ( Will Due ), why are you posting to MauriOra the following:

“Unfortunately, when things are said in forums like this one that are really for real, there are those who have to jump on it to belittle and mock.

Can you clarify what you mean by saying things that are “really for real?”

     “ What they don't understand is that this response and behavior of theirs is exactly what ends up validating further the truth of what they want to break down. It's amusing to see this carry on as if they are thinking they're winning when in reality the fact that there might be silence or an attitude of non-defense goes so much further to it being a factor of clarity for all that read these posts. Especially for those who read but never respond” ( Will Due).

 

My question is what is your reason for being here? Are you seeking like minds, converts,  or are you sincerely questioning? If you are seeking like minds this is fine, but can you tell me how the post I have of yours that I quoted does this?

Fair question, Will. 

Stubbs believes in a higher power of some kind, she is open and honest about it and she loves to hear about any path, we all know she beliefs in a higher power and we all respect her immensely it doesn’t t matter that she believes in a higher power, she is our Stubbs, a worthy voice, a inclusive lady, one I respect immensely and read everything she posts and have learned so much from her. You say you find her posts sincere, this is a good call, cuz she is sincere. 

Do you think it is a good idea to earn credibility on a forum, and if so how would you go about this?

 

 

 

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The best part of being here is learning to like and appreciate different-minded people, to widen one's perspective beyond the narrow vision of monoculturalism.

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7 hours ago, MauriOra said:

Quite correct. I absolutely comprehend everything you've said and am puzzled as to why others cannot get the gist of what your explaining. It's clear and concise and articulated very well in my opinion.. My own Experiences mirror what you say..that's probably why I get it.. 

It's not that we don't get what he is saying, he has made some wide deviations from what we are trying to discuss with him and is not relevant to questions put to him several pages back.

jmccr8

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On 19/10/2017 at 4:24 AM, Mr Walker said:

I dont think you WANT to understand  what i write  Humans have primate drivers  but we also have self conscious awareness Thus we know it is wrong to rape murder or hurt another  What is natural and allowable in a great ape is no longer naturla or allowable in a human being  There is no disdain for animal instincts just an understanding that we are more than JUST animals and have a capacity to control our behaviours which no other animals do   And in part we have been doing this successfully for millennia But ask a woman how far men have advanced in regard to sexual harassment, violence, rape and abuse . The answer is, not far enough.

If you  dont see the relevance of the experiences, then you are not comprehending any of my argument (i value skills and experience and despite what you think, have probably engaged with a far wider range of experiences and thus skills than you have)    it is just that i see these as restricted  by many physical factors  Eg to learn to snow ski i had to travel thousands of kilometres, spend a month's pay and  a couple of days on the slopes . I try to be as diverse as i can in my experiences but there a re many things i will never have the chance to experience in real life BUT i can experience them, learn about them, understand them, and  learn FROM them, by reading how other people engaged in them. 

Iv'e never used my fist on a juvenile (or indeed on any human or animal,) since i was in my last fight at  school in the 60s,  when two  other 15/16 year olds, who went on to be police officers  forced every boy in their year level to fight them, to establish their physical superiority.  If you didn't fight back, they just beat you up any way      It was at that point that  i decided to learn how to be able to defend myself, but also other strategies to win a fight without ever engaging in one. if those young blokes had tried the same thing a year or later i would simply have picked up a pencil from  a desk, held it to the eye of one, and told them that  if the y persisted i would insert it into their brain via their eye socket or described one of several other ways i could kill or incapacitate them, rather than engage in a "fair" fist fight  My mental attitude had changed  While i was not afraid of them i had never thought through difernt responses never expecting to have to face this sort of situation in my home class room just before school started  Once i worked out different  strategies and practiced them until  i was confident  i could carry them off,  i was no longer restricted in my options   ( i could also have threatened to report them for assault and thus prevent them ever becoming police officers which was their total  ambition in life. This would probably have stopped them,  but back then you never dobbed to parents teachers or any authority)        

In every case since, where i have been threatened by a student or an adult, something about my demeanour has caused them to   stop, rethink, and back off.  I don't fully know why this is, but it has something to do with human psychology.  I am small and quietly spoken ,  but until my sixties  i could kill an attacker in any one of many ways with any one of many objects to hand,  and would  have done do so calmly, and without fear or anger,  knowing that i had a moral right to defend myself or a person under my care and protection.  I dont have to face that situation  much in retirement, but still find myself strategising and checking out something like a pencil, or a bunch of keys to be used as a weapon, working out the safest place to sit in a public place, and checking the location of all entry and exit points.  It is young men  (and increasingly young women ) who are most a t risk of violence, due to the nature of young men, and increasingly, young women. 

  More to the point i think i could convey to others with my voice, words, posture and confidence,  my absolute certainty that i could,  and my willingness to, kill or incapacitate them  if attacked, which stopped anyone ever doing so.  

  It worked.  i've never engaged in violence since then.  I have walked in between two very fit young men who were pounding on each other, to stop them fighting, and copped a few accidental blows in the process, but they were very apologetic, so i let it ride  i have restrained a young teenager who was trying to kill her sister and i restrained a woman trying to kill herself, due to  postnatal depression I have confronted people to protect others and confronted armed intruders with my own weapons,   but i've never lost my temper and i've never hit another person with my fists.  Indeed  I  have never administered any form of physical punishment on a child or teenager, because  i have never had to  due to my own nature. Kids don't seem to defy me, or lose their temper, or pick a fight with me  very often. In 40 years of teaching i've only had one male,  whom I can remember, punch me and crack a rib. by thye i was in my 60s  I simply took his fist in mine, put my face right in his,  and told him very  quietly that once i took my hand away,  if he hit me again, i would kill him.  That had a remarkably calming effect .   Of course his mother got a little upset but I told her that, if she prefered to make a fuss about my handling of the situation  i would press assault charges.   He was moved from the school (this was just one example of a long string of violent behaviours) and in the next holidays set fire to his new school .. i think his mother then took him out of school and home schooled him  

I dont have any problem with the tactical use of violence to minimise, avoid, or win, a conflict, especially in self defense or to protect others.

My concern is with people who can't control their violence, and hurt others who do not deserve to be hurt.  eg in social situations, on the street, in cars/road rage incidents, or in a domestic situation. 

 I've avoided violence by always being in control, but if I had to have used violence, it would have been overwhelming, and total, in order  to minimise harm to me or other victims. 

Walker

I am using my phone so I can't break down your post to address specific comments at this time.

Rape, murder and pedeofilic acts are committed by conscious intent and do not fall into the qualities of animal instinct which is more reactionary. The above stated crimes require reasoning and selection of victims and mode of  employment  these deliberate rationalizations. If you are interested the books that I read were written by John E Douglas who started the profiling of these serial offenders while working for the FBI. Your assertion that in modern times that animal instinct is not needed is lacking because it is adaptive to the environment that we live in, instead of predictors we become aware of traffic, the movement of overhead cranes at work the smell of chemicals and the sounds of tools all part of our survival instinct.

In so far as me not wanting to understand read what we have been discussing for the past year through different threads that this subject continues to arise in. When you said students you were a teacher so if they were your peers then you should have identified them as fellow students, none the less I still find your claim suspect. If these boys had beaten all the other boys in your school/neighborhood and this was your first experience of defending yourself after having been bullied and being fearful then what you have written doesn't ring true. I am surprised that he would have been gracious enough to have given you the time to tell him how you were going to use that pencil or took it away and made you eat it first, he was an experienced fighter and had likely been threatened by more intimidating foes than you.

What we are discussing is knowledge gained through experience and reading, if it will help you understand I will post pics of my work and you can explain to me how you could do that work of the same quality with just reading a book.

Understand that I did study drafting and did read and still do to augment my physical skills. I did not pursue a career in drafting because I don't like sitting at a desk day after day and enjoy making things with my hands. I can go to work  wearing cutoffs and a suntan an breath fresh air and don't have to go to the gym to workout. For me it's a win win situation and I apply the same learning process in all areas of interest the combination of physical experience and reading.

Whether you think that you have more experience than me is a pointless distraction from the discussion, I have always told you that we live in different environments with different interests and that there are some things that I will not discuss through this medium. You don't need to complete because that is not why I am here as I am very confident in who and what I am and for me based on my environment many of the things you claim are straight up laughable so if you don't want to get called on it stick to the topic.

jmccr8

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16 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

That is not true. I am in control of self to a very high degree, and that is all I am talking about. I am not in control of others or of nature but by controlling self i can improve my interactions and survivability with others and nature. there is no physical flaw in the human mind or body which stops us completely taking control of our thoughts and behaviours in a conscious and considered way, but to gain total control takes practice and effort, and hence time. 

it is an illusion, and a dangerous one, to believe that circumstances outside our control, control us That, because we are hungry, we have to kill or steal to survive, for example.  That we are not always, and totally, responsible for our own thoughts and behaviors .EVERY human can chose the thoughts they construct and EVERY adult, functioning, human has the physical abilty to control,their body by application of mind, will and discipline   Just because few exercise this abilty does not negate its existence in us all      

Dont get me wrong Walker, i learn much from you and you are a constant reminder to myself to reassess when i am getting too confident... Or cocky in life...

Humility is key to communication, i did not mean to offend.

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I wonder how this thread would have turned out if the word 'faith' was replaced with 'religious idolatry'? 

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4 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

I wonder how this thread would have turned out if the word 'faith' was replaced with 'religious idolatry'? 

About as well as if it were replaced with "secular cynicism".

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18 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

About as well as if it were replaced with "secular cynicism".

Yeah..not very in keeping with the OP's sentiment but ok. I was trying to make the point that 'faith' has such a wide definition that 'religious idolatry' might have focussed the discussion, but then some internet smartass comes along and...

I jest

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5 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

Yeah..not very in keeping with the OP's sentiment but ok. I was trying to make the point that 'faith' has such a wide definition that 'religious idolatry' might have focussed the discussion, but then some internet smartass comes along and...

I jest

The point being both terms are arbitrary judgments and only evoke controversy. It's that broad spectrum of interpretation to which you refer that makes the topic of Faith amenable to discussion.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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38 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

I wonder how this thread would have turned out if the word 'faith' was replaced with 'religious idolatry'? 

Only one way to find out. ....

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28 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The point being both terms are arbitrary judgments and only evoke controversy. It's that broad spectrum of interpretation to which you refer that makes the topic of Faith amenable to discussion.

I understand that but you cannot outlaw something that is innate to human beings. This thread has well established that. Indeed I'd go so far as to say it proves we need faith to survive. So I wondered how the thread would have evolved if...

In this context 'outlawing faith' isn't amenable to much more meaningful discussion. Unless you have more to add?

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