Jump to content
Unexplained Mysteries uses cookies. By using the site you consent to our use of cookies as per our Cookie Policy.
Close X
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Wes4747

Outlawing faith

1,022 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

I'mConvinced

I wonder how this thread would have turned out if the word 'faith' was replaced with 'religious idolatry'? 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammerclaw
4 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

I wonder how this thread would have turned out if the word 'faith' was replaced with 'religious idolatry'? 

About as well as if it were replaced with "secular cynicism".

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'mConvinced
18 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

About as well as if it were replaced with "secular cynicism".

Yeah..not very in keeping with the OP's sentiment but ok. I was trying to make the point that 'faith' has such a wide definition that 'religious idolatry' might have focussed the discussion, but then some internet smartass comes along and...

I jest

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammerclaw
5 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

Yeah..not very in keeping with the OP's sentiment but ok. I was trying to make the point that 'faith' has such a wide definition that 'religious idolatry' might have focussed the discussion, but then some internet smartass comes along and...

I jest

The point being both terms are arbitrary judgments and only evoke controversy. It's that broad spectrum of interpretation to which you refer that makes the topic of Faith amenable to discussion.

Edited by Hammerclaw
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wes4747
38 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

I wonder how this thread would have turned out if the word 'faith' was replaced with 'religious idolatry'? 

Only one way to find out. ....

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
markdohle

Well, good luck with that :st.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'mConvinced
28 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The point being both terms are arbitrary judgments and only evoke controversy. It's that broad spectrum of interpretation to which you refer that makes the topic of Faith amenable to discussion.

I understand that but you cannot outlaw something that is innate to human beings. This thread has well established that. Indeed I'd go so far as to say it proves we need faith to survive. So I wondered how the thread would have evolved if...

In this context 'outlawing faith' isn't amenable to much more meaningful discussion. Unless you have more to add?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MauriOra
6 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

To know Faith, one's own very personal Faith, is to walk in it's garden, alone. Some gardens are beautiful, awash with the color and the fragrance of flowers, redolent with their perfumes and riotous with the songs of myriad birds. Others are dreary places, unloved and forgotten, "unweeded gardens, gone to seed. Things rank and gross in nature possess them, merely." I find it curious yet inspiring  that even some who profess to know not God abide in the most beautiful of gardens. One's statement of Faith is who one is, what one is, how one is and what one says. It is the person, themselves, who is the statement of their Faith and none other.

I agree. Beautiful HC. .

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MauriOra
7 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Hi, Mauri :st I hope you realize, I'm not mocking or being sarcastic or anything. I'm profoundly curious in how you see this. I feel, there have been a lot of behaviors, activities, and such brought up, that is thought to be done in such ways. For me, I even entertain the thought it might. And heck, invention and creativity, I feel stems from necessity and individual speculation of different paths to a solution. Though, I also feel, in the long run, a lot of things don't pan out to what I think, and still feel the need to use what is what I need. 

I have come to know, in my life, that certain things cannot be done over all, and that something can be done, but it's in rare situations to happen, and thus still in the subjective sense. For me, I feel things have to make sense to believe. And I feel, to believe, is to have the basis of experience, observation, and something backed up to have me honestly believe. My point, how is it things can be done, and where is the proof that they can be. 

Is there something you  know, with sources, that could explain it? :) 

Again, not mocking, just curious and really am interested in your thoughts and opinions. :) 

 

Hi StubblyD , thank you for being respectful. I like your question and will answer as best I can. Just gotta get this bReign to work.. I have no Sources just my own experiences. Which is a source too I guess. I  resonate with what MW says. It rings true to me. As does a lot of things I read here. We're all Teachers and Students simultaneously. I have read many of your posts too and learnt a lot thank you.  I'll answer your question shortly.. nice to meet u..

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammerclaw
54 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

I understand that but you cannot outlaw something that is innate to human beings. This thread has well established that. Indeed I'd go so far as to say it proves we need faith to survive. So I wondered how the thread would have evolved if...

In this context 'outlawing faith' isn't amenable to much more meaningful discussion. Unless you have more to add?

It's a hypothetical discussion on Faith meaning it's permutations are endless.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

The best part of being here is learning to like and appreciate different-minded people, to widen one's perspective beyond the narrow vision of monoculturalism.

For me, it is to marvel at well oiled minds, that have challenged themselves, have looked beyond the superficial and gone within and come back out with some good insights, and set aside their perspective, one is not listening to another if  they are to busy telling them what they should believe. 

We have some incredible posters here, I can’t imagine not stopping in to read my favorites and learning something, or see something in a new way. 

For example: your insights on faith, they are seasoned and it is obvious you have looked into this deeply yourself. 

I prefer authenticity in a poster.

 

Edited by Sherapy
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammerclaw
9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

For me, it is to marvel at well oiled minds, that have challenged themselves, have looked beyond the superficial and gone within and come back out with some good insights, and set aside their perspective, one is not listening to another if  they are to busy telling them what they should believe. 

We have some incredible posters here, I can’t imagine not stopping in to read my favorites and learning something, or see something in a new way. 

For example: your insights on faith, they are seasoned and it is obvious you have looked into this deeply yourself. 

I prefer authenticity in a poster.

 

I've noticed and admired the way your style and fluency in expression has evolved, advanced and become more coherent and elaborate. This sort of real time use of language textually, has helped both of us. I was something of a tyro when I first got a computer and it's helped my vocabulary and manner of expression in a rather short time. As such, this place is more important to me than facebook or twitter. Here, the overall level of intelligence is consistent with what I want to say.

I'm humbled by your words and as often inspired by your own. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammerclaw

Faith is fragile, like a beautiful but delicate flower, needing nurturing and equal measures of water, sun and shade. Not clad in iron, but soft clothing, yet it must stand the weathering of time and fate.  I know not what comfort it may bring in the hour of my passing. Will my eyes close and then awaken to a new dawn in a different place, or stay closed forever? Are we like dew, newly fallen on the rose, to only vanish away in the rising sun, or is there more to our seemingly ephemeral existence? Am I but an accident of nature, or am I a player in the troupe of life and all the world, indeed, a stage? Will I choose to play again? I know not.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

I've noticed and admired the way your style and fluency in expression has evolved, advanced and become more coherent and elaborate. This sort of real time use of language textually, has helped both of us. I was something of a tyro when I first got a computer and it's helped my vocabulary and manner of expression in a rather short time. As such, this place is more important to me than facebook or twitter. Here, the overall level of intelligence is consistent with what I want to say.

I'm humbled by your words and as often inspired by your own. 

What is a tyro? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammerclaw
8 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

What is a tyro? 

A novice. A term from medieval Latin.

Edited by Hammerclaw
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
55 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

A novice. A term from medieval Latin.

Aww, I see. This is a great place to practice writing. 

A good friend of mine who is a Proffessor of Literature always tells me the key to writing is the rewriting, the problem with thIs is it can become an obsession. I lean on the edit button quite a bit.

 

Edited by Sherapy
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Faith is fragile, like a beautiful but delicate flower, needing nurturing and equal measures of water, sun and shade. Not clad in iron, but soft clothing, yet it must stand the weathering of time and fate.  I know not what comfort it may bring in the hour of my passing. Will my eyes close and then awaken to a new dawn in a different place, or stay closed forever? Are we like dew, newly fallen on the rose, to only vanish away in the rising sun, or is there more to our seemingly ephemeral existence? Am I but an accident of nature, or am I a player in the troupe of life and all the world, indeed, a stage? Will I choose to play again? I know not.

How do you nurture faith and to what end, if any at all? 

How does it help you with the uncertainty, the unknown, the unanswerable, for me it has been easier to accept the unknown, the uncertainty, and the unanswerable. It seems natural to not have an adgenda ( just meaning in this case a preference on what may or may not happen on something I can't know while living). 

Edited by Sherapy
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stubbly_Dooright
10 hours ago, Will Due said:

Thanks Stubbly. I appreciate all you do in this forum.

I will tell you that I see things almost identical to how you've described your spiritual religious experiences. I hope you don't mind that I just used the word religious in conjunction with the word spiritual. 

I too feel it's very important to never tell or describe those personal spiritual experiences that light the way personally and subjectively for our transformations. 

I've been talking about the essence of what you have just now described here by using the term "true religion"

I believe what you're experiencing is exactly that, true and spiritual in the greatest sense of what the word religion means. Especially in regard to how these experiences cause growth and a greater appreciation for everything, especially the relationships with others.

It's your sincerity Stubbly, that impresses most. It's a very good thing that I've gotten to know you through participating in UM. :)

 

 

Awww, shucks, Will. :blush:  Thanks. :D  

And you wish to see it as religious, well why not? I do feel at times, they seem to be one and the same sometimes. And it feels natural to see my belief, as a religion sometimes. :yes:  

And yes, I feel, what you write about your religious experiences, seem to be the same as what I experience. I will say, when it comes to seeing something as 'true religion', I see that as a private personal subjective of my version of 'true religion' and that's just for me. I do see how you see what you believe in, as your 'true religion', and I find it hard to categorize it in an objective sense, but you know, that's me. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Aquila King
6 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

I wonder how this thread would have turned out if the word 'faith' was replaced with 'religious idolatry'? 

I gave up on this thread long ago. Just stoppin' in to see what's up.

I honestly don't know why you and people like jmccr8 and Sherapy spin your wheels like you do, but I commend your commitment.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jmccr8
59 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

How do you nurture faith and to what end, if any at all? 

How does it help you with the uncertainty, the unknown, the unanswerable, for me it has been easier to accept the unknown, the uncertainty, and the unanswerable. It seems natural to not have an adgenda ( just meaning in this case a preference on what may or may not happen on something I can't know while living). 

That is an interesting question Sherapy, maybe I just don't dwell on what ifs that much. For me I AM seems to give me what I need, I form goals and work to their end with no expectation of not getting there, I' m too stubborn/ strong willed to be broken, sure there are set backs and there is always a way around them. So I guess that for me my past provides my confidence in the future the faith that I have intelligence and can adapt myself and my environment. If there is something more after this life and I am me then I will face that with the same faith in me that I have now, and if there is nothing more then it has served me well in the life I live.

jmccr8

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stubbly_Dooright
5 hours ago, MauriOra said:

Hi StubblyD , thank you for being respectful. I like your question and will answer as best I can. Just gotta get this bReign to work.. I have no Sources just my own experiences. Which is a source too I guess. I  resonate with what MW says. It rings true to me. As does a lot of things I read here. We're all Teachers and Students simultaneously. I have read many of your posts too and learnt a lot thank you.  I'll answer your question shortly.. nice to meet u..

Well, I will be excited with what you have found. :yes: And thank you for your kind words. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Aquila King
8 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Walker

I am using my phone so I can't break down your post to address specific comments at this time.

Rape, murder and pedeofilic acts are committed by conscious intent and do not fall into the qualities of animal instinct which is more reactionary. The above stated crimes require reasoning and selection of victims and mode of  employment  these deliberate rationalizations. If you are interested the books that I read were written by John E Douglas who started the profiling of these serial offenders while working for the FBI. Your assertion that in modern times that animal instinct is not needed is lacking because it is adaptive to the environment that we live in, instead of predictors we become aware of traffic, the movement of overhead cranes at work the smell of chemicals and the sounds of tools all part of our survival instinct.

In so far as me not wanting to understand read what we have been discussing for the past year through different threads that this subject continues to arise in. When you said students you were a teacher so if they were your peers then you should have identified them as fellow students, none the less I still find your claim suspect. If these boys had beaten all the other boys in your school/neighborhood and this was your first experience of defending yourself after having been bullied and being fearful then what you have written doesn't ring true. I am surprised that he would have been gracious enough to have given you the time to tell him how you were going to use that pencil or took it away and made you eat it first, he was an experienced fighter and had likely been threatened by more intimidating foes than you.

What we are discussing is knowledge gained through experience and reading, if it will help you understand I will post pics of my work and you can explain to me how you could do that work of the same quality with just reading a book.

Understand that I did study drafting and did read and still do to augment my physical skills. I did not pursue a career in drafting because I don't like sitting at a desk day after day and enjoy making things with my hands. I can go to work  wearing cutoffs and a suntan an breath fresh air and don't have to go to the gym to workout. For me it's a win win situation and I apply the same learning process in all areas of interest the combination of physical experience and reading.

Whether you think that you have more experience than me is a pointless distraction from the discussion, I have always told you that we live in different environments with different interests and that there are some things that I will not discuss through this medium. You don't need to complete because that is not why I am here as I am very confident in who and what I am and for me based on my environment many of the things you claim are straight up laughable so if you don't want to get called on it stick to the topic.

jmccr8

Well done my friend, well done. A simple like of this does not suffice, I had to quote it as well.

And to @Mr Walker, Your comments on rape and pedophilia are deplorable. You should be ashamed. I'm glad you showed me who you truly are.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
18 hours ago, MauriOra said:

Quite correct. I absolutely comprehend everything you've said and am puzzled as to why others cannot get the gist of what your explaining. It's clear and concise and articulated very well in my opinion.. My own Experiences mirror what you say..that's probably why I get it.. 

I believe that some people honestly do not believe that they can control their emotional responses and thus their behaviours Others are not so honest and want an excuse to behave badly so argue that humans simply cannot exert enough will and discipline to control their thoughts and behaviours .

Some people think that if something is "natural " it must be better than anything a human can do Ie that it is normal to tear your hair out with grief and not normal to feel only a small amount of grief Others think anger is natural and unavoidable. Many people do not realise that our behaviours and responses, are learned and often culturally specific.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
16 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

Weeeellllll..... This post is much like some other thing that looks good on paper- but in real world applications, it is utter nonsense.

You think you control your philosophies? You choose them? Yet previously we have discussed environmental factors molding who we are. Your views, the ones you have "chosen" to hold true guide your actions. 

I propose that our world has molded your views much more than any original thought or inspiration you think you might have had.

What lets me know you have this illusion? This view of yourself you share constantly. Though your philosophies seem to be improving, you still have failed to break the great illusion.

I wish you well. 

 A self aware human mind is just that, Ie slef aware. it has the cognitive abilities to think objectively and subjectively, to understand the interplay of conscious and subconscious thought and the nature and purpose of dreams imagination etc.

it can operate in several modes a t once processing thousands of images and pieces of data a second  and use the interplay between those modes to examine and compare the outcomes of different strategies and lines of thought,  using rational, intuitive, imaginative or other mental processes. It can think linearly or using forms of mind mapping.

  We can analyse ourselves and come to know and understand who we are how we came ot be as we are and how to reconstruct ourselves into what we want to be How we constructed our beliefs values and opinions on any subject My parents made me aware of these things as a preschooler and i've been working with them since my first conscious memories  So yes i choose how and why i construct my philosophies I first formed a conscious value line, based on prioritising outcomes when difernt values were applied when i was 3 or 4 years old 

 I use an outcome based, criteria referenced system to decide what are positive constructive values and hence actions and behaviours. I choose certain things to be more important, based on similar criteria referenced value based judgements. I take on expert advice and test its validity but don't simply accept it as valid. 

And then I read. i read millions and millions of words by tens of thousands of peole. And in those worlds i find interesting, unusual,conflicting, complementary, challenging and motivating, ideas and concepts.

So i sift through them and consciously apply those which will improve my life based on those values and criteria established in child hood   i am constantly in the now adapting evolving responding and thinking by using the past present and future to extrapolate analyse and  evaluate optimal ways of thinking and behaving Thus when about 12 or 13 i consciously incorporated Asimov's 3 laws of robotics as my own core laws of behaviour  And i did this deliberately and consciously because the y met my existing values and priorities.    I still make mistakes and get things wrong But only rarely, and almost never with serious consequences on me or others  

Of course my world has molded  me and my thoughts The biggest example is that, while i have a little background in other languages i really only speak or read English and so, of course,  my data input is limited to that language. However i am aware of this limitation and the influences it has on cultural perspective. I do what i can to overcome it by reading translations from other languages and watching a wide range of programmes, both contemporary and historical, from other non english speaking  countries  which have very different core values and attitudes. Currently these include turkish, korean, chinese, german, A couple of the baltic nations  and a couple of scandinavian ones.

So it is not  nonsense for me. It is my life and how i have lived and shaped it since i was about 3 years old   i set out my life plan in childhood and achieved all my goals by the time i was 30 introducing new ones  adapting and evolving as i went along  Then i rewrote a second and   i am now well into my third. I control and shape my life, the person whom i am, and how i behave.  No one else can do this  except  with my consent 9eg i work in a n equal and shared partnership with my wife which causes me to rearrange some of my individual and perona values and behaviours   I am a significantly difernt man after 40 years of marriage than i would have been if unmarried or married to another person. But i have also theoretically plotted these changes and differences, to see who i would have been if i had married an earlier girlfriend or remained single.

Once you really understand the capacity of the human mind, and begin to use it effectively, anyone can comprehend that we have control over ourselves and thus we have a great responsibility to use that power wisely and well.   Humans are the only entity on earth who can construct the future as they want, and choose, it to be, both for themselves and for our species 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammerclaw
3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

How do you nurture faith and to what end, if any at all? 

How does it help you with the uncertainty, the unknown, the unanswerable, for me it has been easier to accept the unknown, the uncertainty, and the unanswerable. It seems natural to not have an adgenda ( just meaning in this case a preference on what may or may not happen on something I can't know while living). 

What end? Well, that is the question, isn't it? Is death the end, or simply the end of a journey and the start of another? Is it the end of spiritual childhood and the doorway to adulthood? Is it the sweet oblivion of your own desire? It seems natural to me to yearn for more. You are still in the high Summer of your life. I'm in mid Autumn of mine--and Winter's coming. perhaps that is key to the difference in our perspectives.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.