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Scudbuster

Carl Sagan on Religion

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GlitterRose

Look at it like this...the Protestant Reformation happened, but did it really do anything to change the Catholic Church?

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and then
Just now, ChaosRose said:

Of course not. There are some things beyond the scope of science. 

Yet so many scientists state dogmatically their derision of faith.  I simply point out their hypocrisy.  I don't fault them for their belief, yet most of them today actually believe they have a right to not only dissent but to actually force their world-view on those of faith.  Just remember that there are also predictions that untold numbers of Christians that will choose death by execution rather than give up their faith in God.  THAT is going to cause a harvest of new believers that amazes the nonbelievers.  A person who is willing to give up their life for what they believe, not to kill innocents but just to PROVE they believe, is the most powerful witness of faith that a human being can give.

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GlitterRose
Just now, and then said:

Yet so many scientists state dogmatically their derision of faith.  I simply point out their hypocrisy.  I don't fault them for their belief, yet most of them today actually believe they have a right to not only dissent but to actually force their world-view on those of faith.  Just remember that there are also predictions that untold numbers of Christians that will choose death by execution rather than give up their faith in God.  THAT is going to cause a harvest of new believers that amazes the nonbelievers.  A person who is willing to give up their life for what they believe, not to kill innocents but just to PROVE they believe, is the most powerful witness of faith that a human being can give.

I think what they balk at most is the insistence of many of faith to completely ignore well-known scientific facts in favor of the old book that men with no science wrote. 

I can understand the frustration.

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Will Do
Just now, ChaosRose said:

Not really. New sects develop, and they might be more progressive than the old ones, but those orthodox sects have never really gone away. They just might have fewer adherents. And even that changes with the climate.

Science in the last two hundred years has transformed the world for the masses from one of physical hardship to one of relative luxury and ease, as in transportation, communication, and sanitation.

Religion lags behind in comparison but like in the beginning of the industrial revolution, in order for society to cross over the barrier to the life of leisure we enjoy today, religiously speaking, the masses have to endure the relative hardships to the religious complex like the factory workers of the burgeoning industrial complex did in the early days in order for all of us and our descendants to become free eventually of institutionalized religious organization that is a burden and a spiritual hardship in many ways.

 

 

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Will Do

A new approach to religion is emerging however slowly that will reciprocate eventually the advancements made in science.

Evolution cannot be stopped, even as evolution extends itself to the fundamental things of "religion."

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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jmccr8
39 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Religion is self-correcting too. But it isn't happening in the same way that science self-corrects. 

 

 

Will

Could you show how religion is selfcorrrecting, in some instances religion dpes not question itself amd other times amendments are made grudgingly do to social pressure and science is more fluid with what is discovered.

jmccr8

45 minutes ago, and then said:

I accept that.  I also accept that science is the best method to prove our theories about our physical reality.  What I don't believe is that science has all or ever will have all the answers.  Science can tell us "how" but not "why". The very fact that science's best answer to the moment of creation of our universe(s) is that something came from nothing proves this to me.  Their answer to the beginning of all things is just as magical as any religionist.  Further, those old men wrote things a couple of millennia ago that have come true and other things that seem to be coming true today.  

A couple of examples are the coming total destruction of the city of Damascus, Syria and a multi-nation assault against Israel where the only common tie is that they are all Islamic and they all hate the Jews.  That was written a thousand years before Islam was a religion.  Damascus has never been totally rendered a "heap of ruins" OVERNIGHT, nor left uninhabitable for any length of time.  It has changed hands many times but it always was occupied and the city lived on.

When these things happen, as I know they will, folks should remember that to reject a thing without investigation is the worst kind of ignorance.

Every since the writing of revelations each generation saw signs and felt thatt they were living in the end of times and yet we are still here for future generations to continue the custom of end of days on. 

Personally I don't spend time trying to make today's news into yesterdays prophecies I have always lived my life as my first and last. When I go to sleep at night I have no expectation of waking tomorrow, I have a plan for me simply because I want to have a goal and if I don't live to see it through it's no big deal. I have lived far longer that I ever expected to and keep my self busy so that my brain doesn't rot from boredom.

jmccr8

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Will Do
7 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Will

Could you show how religion is selfcorrrecting, in some instances religion dpes not question itself amd other times amendments are made grudgingly do to social pressure and science is more fluid with what is discovered.

jmccr8

 

First I need to be clear that the way religion self-corrects (evolves) is not comparable to how science does.

Before I go any further with how man's concept of God keeps improving as it evolves, I would point to how a child when very young is not over educated by good and wise parents about the realities of life.

Good parents wait until their child becomes more inquisitive about what is unknown to him or her when they realize there are more things he or she needs to know. Until their child makes specific inquiries, good and wise parents withhold giving their child advice about many things.

Mankind's need and knowledge of religion works the same way. When you look at the several different concepts of God as recorded in the Bible for example, the overall concept evolves from a God of vengeance and fear to a God of mercy and love, and this is what I meant that religion, by its conceptual evolution, self-corrects as revelation is provided in one way or another in line with man's naturally occurring growing inquisitiveness and a greater capacity for more revelation (information) about God.

 

 

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GlitterRose
2 hours ago, Will Due said:

Science in the last two hundred years has transformed the world for the masses from one of physical hardship to one of relative luxury and ease, as in transportation, communication, and sanitation.

Religion lags behind in comparison but like in the beginning of the industrial revolution, in order for society to cross over the barrier to the life of leisure we enjoy today, religiously speaking, the masses have to endure the relative hardships to the religious complex like the factory workers of the burgeoning industrial complex did in the early days in order for all of us and our descendants to become free eventually of institutionalized religious organization that is a burden and a spiritual hardship in many ways.

 

 

It seems like the more progressive denominations are losing ground, while the fundamentalist megachurches are flourishing. That seems whole lot like going backwards to me.

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ChrLzs
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I just wish that scientists would drop the arrogance and admit that they can't prove that a Creator doesn't exist,

Mmmm?  Really?  You are wishing for something that is already how science works?  Science has nothing to say on things that don't exist.  Science makes observations, and does its best to explain those observations.  Could you quote/cite this 'behavior' you allege?  If there is something they are arrogantly denying, but of which proof exists, can you please CITE the scientist in question, followed by the evidence to the contrary?

And can you honestly not see the irony/illogic in this, especially when followed by:

Quote

any more than a believer can prove that He does.

Well, why can't you?  We can prove (beyond reasonable doubt) dogs and cats exist.  People.  Earth. The Cosmos.  Pretty easily, in fact.  There's a huge amount of stuff that science (and any logical, reasonable human) accepts as proven beyond reasonable doubt.

So why are you having a problem with proving this?  Creator not playing ball?  A lack of convincing evidence?

 

I know what that's like - me, I worship the Invisible Pink Unicorn....

 

Edited by ChrLzs
... grr. Editor won't allow line breaks..
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and then
2 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

Science has nothing to say on things that don't exist. 

You could have fooled me.  There is a strong component of science worshippers right here on UM that REGULARLY say quite a lot about a thing they believe "does not exist".  Further, they regularly attempt to demean and despise those who show any faith whatever in a God of Creation.  I'm not sure why you'd try to deny the obvious.  It isn't your belief system that I have a problem with.  It's the total arrogance that flows from those who share it that is hard to take.

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Will Do
6 minutes ago, and then said:

You could have fooled me.  There is a strong component of science worshippers right here on UM that REGULARLY say quite a lot about a thing they believe "does not exist".  Further, they regularly attempt to demean and despise those who show any faith whatever in a God of Creation.  I'm not sure why you'd try to deny the obvious.  It isn't your belief system that I have a problem with.  It's the total arrogance that flows from those who share it that is hard to take.

Where's the double like button?

 

 

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ChrLzs
53 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Where's the double like button?

Right next to the "Me Too!!! even though neither they or I can give examples - we love to handwave!!!" button.

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Sherapy
7 hours ago, and then said:

Yet so many scientists state dogmatically their derision of faith.  I simply point out their hypocrisy.  I don't fault them for their belief, yet most of them today actually believe they have a right to not only dissent but to actually force their world-view on those of faith.  Just remember that there are also predictions that untold numbers of Christians that will choose death by execution rather than give up their faith in God.  THAT is going to cause a harvest of new believers that amazes the nonbelievers.  A person who is willing to give up their life for what they believe, not to kill innocents but just to PROVE they believe, is the most powerful witness of faith that a human being can give.

What reason would there be to willingly die just to prove you believe something? Why not just argue for it using facts. What people will think this is another Branch Davidian or Heaves Gates cult or suicide bombers without the bombs. 

This type of belief is not a good thing And then. Sheesh.

 

Edited by Sherapy
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ChrLzs

And then - I take it you won't be answering the questions I asked - the ones you edited out...?  When you add that to the fact that you will not give an example of the 'arrogance'.... well, I think the arrogance might all be in your heads .. and that's ... well...

.. rather arrogant, really.. :D

Worth noting who started the ad-hominem approach, btw...  Me, I'd rather have a conversation that was based on the facts/logic, than on attacks on people's *alleged* state of mind.

I can make you sound arrogant too, just by reading your posts in an angry voice.  You should try not doing that.

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11 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

What reason would there be to willingly die just to prove you believe something?

Sherapy, with all due respect - and I DO respect your opinions, I'm speaking of a time that is coming when believers will be faced with a choice of standing for the belief - at the cost of their lives - or denying their belief so they can breathe for a few more years.  It is in this context that I'm speaking.  There is nothing arbitrary about it.  People who don't have faith in God cannot understand such behavior and that's okay for now.  Think about this for a moment, though.  If a time comes in your life when you see these things happening, actual executions of people just because they won't reject their faith, what will you do?  What choice will you make?  It's a hypothetical for now but when it happens, all moral human beings are going to be faced with a real dilemma.  Do they remain silent and allow it to happen or do they risk death themselves.  The Bible clearly states that this will happen.  The primary means of executing these believers will be by beheading.  Can you think of any modern context for such behavior?  Only one occurs to me.

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Will Do

"It is easy to die in the line of physical battle when your courage is strengthened by the presence of your fighting comrades, but it requires a higher and more profound form of human courage and devotion calmly and all alone to lay down your life for the love of a truth enshrined in your mortal heart."

 

The lines are drawn.

 

 

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GoldenWolf
5 minutes ago, Will Due said:

The lines are drawn.

 

 

Read my signature.

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Davros of Skaro
12 hours ago, and then said:

People who don't have faith in God cannot understand such behavior and that's okay for now. 

I completely comprehend such behavior. People are willing to die for their addiction. The Maoist revolution of the mid twentieth century executed heroin addicts. You want to stay alive then stop using heroin....Nope!

Opiod addicts today know that their smack of questionable origin can be a hot dose causing a fatality. Do they stop....Nope!

Quote

Think about this for a moment, though.  If a time comes in your life when you see these things happening, actual executions of people just because they won't reject their faith, what will you do?  What choice will you make? 

How about your fairytale scenario was happening to innocent faithful to the end Muslims? Would you convert to Islam because their faith shows it's true? ....Nope! You're addicted to your brand.

Quote

It's a hypothetical for now but when it happens, all moral human beings are going to be faced with a real dilemma.  Do they remain silent and allow it to happen or do they risk death themselves. 

The majority of the people are moral, and this will not happen unless hidden from the public. We have learned from the past, and we will not repeat it.

Quote

The Bible clearly states that this will happen. 

The same book that clearly states that the Earth is a flat circle, domed by glass that holds up an ocean, and the lights of the Heavens are affixed to said dome?

Quote

The primary means of executing these believers will be by beheading.  Can you think of any modern context for such behavior?  Only one occurs to me.

I know you are riding a high of confirmation bias via recent events, but this is what addiction does to people. I heard one guy recently say that hurricanes form out of the old slave trade routes because God is showing the evils of slavery.

The mind can make people do, and think sick things so dying for a belief is not special. 

13d6d28f15fd6611305969741f76abe0--nerd-girls-fandoms-unite.jpg

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and then

Is there anything you'd die for?  What makes you special in Davros' eyes? Other than the desire to crush the faith of others on an internet forum? ;) 

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jmccr8
18 hours ago, Will Due said:

First I need to be clear that the way religion self-corrects (evolves) is not comparable to how science does.

Before I go any further with how man's concept of God keeps improving as it evolves, I would point to how a child when very young is not over educated by good and wise parents about the realities of life.

Good parents wait until their child becomes more inquisitive about what is unknown to him or her when they realize there are more things he or she needs to know. Until their child makes specific inquiries, good and wise parents withhold giving their child advice about many things.

Mankind's need and knowledge of religion works the same way. When you look at the several different concepts of God as recorded in the Bible for example, the overall concept evolves from a God of vengeance and fear to a God of mercy and love, and this is what I meant that religion, by its conceptual evolution, self-corrects as revelation is provided in one way or another in line with man's naturally occurring growing inquisitiveness and a greater capacity for more revelation (information) about God.

 

 

Hi Will,

If god is without fault and his word is divine then why would man need to correct him. All that is written about all gods is written by men who say they have been inspired by god or that god spoke to/through them. That is why religions have corrections is because they are man made constructs, god doesn't have a religion and doesn't belong to a church. On the assumption that god exists then the interpretations of god become false and god has created man to war with each other through deception by letting all praise god by different names and killing. No religion is a man made construct and has little to do with god.

Science on the other hand investigates the world seeks to make it intelligible for me this is how god moves men but it is not god itself because we are god and all that we experience in a physical world.

jmccr8

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I'mConvinced
13 hours ago, and then said:

I'm speaking of a time that is coming when believers will be faced with a choice of standing for the belief - at the cost of their lives - or denying their belief so they can breathe for a few more years.

This has already happened many times - usually it's a gift from one religion to another.

13 hours ago, and then said:

People who don't have faith in God cannot understand such behavior and that's okay for now

And you were calling who arrogant again? 

21 hours ago, and then said:

Just remember that there are also predictions that untold numbers of Christians that will choose death by execution rather than give up their faith in God.  THAT is going to cause a harvest of new believers that amazes the nonbelievers.  A person who is willing to give up their life for what they believe, not to kill innocents but just to PROVE they believe, is the most powerful witness of faith that a human being can give.

It's the most powerful witness that faith is without reason.

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and then
1 hour ago, I'mConvinced said:

This has already happened many times - usually it's a gift from one religion to another.

And you were calling who arrogant again? 

It's the most powerful witness that faith is without reason.

Your answers tell me that when you see these things occur, you will blame, not those doing the slaughtering, but those who yield up their lives.  Tell me, do you equate such behavior with the suicide bombers of Islam?  Are they all the same to you?  Just curious.

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GoldenWolf
48 minutes ago, and then said:

Your answers tell me that when you see these things occur, you will blame, not those doing the slaughtering, but those who yield up their lives.  Tell me, do you equate such behavior with the suicide bombers of Islam?  Are they all the same to you?  Just curious.

I suppose you think Samson is the end all, be all example of a Martyr?

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Will Do
3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will,

If god is without fault and his word is divine then why would man need to correct him. All that is written about all gods is written by men who say they have been inspired by god or that god spoke to/through them. That is why religions have corrections is because they are man made constructs, god doesn't have a religion and doesn't belong to a church. On the assumption that god exists then the interpretations of god become false and god has created man to war with each other through deception by letting all praise god by different names and killing. No religion is a man made construct and has little to do with god.

Science on the other hand investigates the world seeks to make it intelligible for me this is how god moves men but it is not god itself because we are god and all that we experience in a physical world.

jmccr8

Hi jm,

I'm going to try and elaborate.

Quote

If god is without fault and his word is divine then why would man need to correct him.

Man isn't correcting God. God corrects man. Like a toddler who barely knows his parents and is allowed to behave badly sometimes, eventually he will be corrected at the appropriate time. 

 

Quote

All that is written about all gods is written by men who say they have been inspired by god or that god spoke to/through them.

Not anymore. There is a source of information about God that is completely different than anything written about him before and is totally UN-inspired.

Spoiler

I think you know what I'm referring to.

 

Quote

That is why religions have corrections is because they are man made constructs, god doesn't have a religion and doesn't belong to a church.

If I understand you right, I think you're onto something profound and insightful. Yes, God doesn't have a religion and although he sponsors all of man's religious attempts to understand and get to know him, he has created man with a plan in mind for him to live in a certain way that promotes the natural relationship man has with God and God has with man, his son.

This "way" is becoming better known now and will be a common experience for us all eventually because it was designed to allow man to function religiously, that is to live a true religious life, but only after man goes through all the elementary (primitive) religious experiences which he will graduate from in time, to a higher and more independent way compared to being devoted to the traditional organized religions of authority, to live religiously the way God originally designed man to live correctly, instead of according to the incorrect but inspired way some men of old recorded it in many books of several traditional religions.

 

Quote

On the assumption that god exists then the interpretations of god become false and god has created man to war with each other through deception by letting all praise god by different names and killing.

God apparently has allowed for a situation to develop due to the supreme fact of man's free will that man will for a very long time be in almost total error in his interpretation of God. This problem is inherent but it's also designed to be overcome by man's ability (gift) to choose good over evil. When more men do this, choose good in spite of all that is evil and deceptive, war will end.

 

Quote

religion is a man made construct and has little to do with god.

I can agree with you here but only in so far that anything about religion has to do with God only to the degree that man will take on his obligation, as a son of God, to be about the "doing of the Father's will" on earth as it is in Heaven.

 

Quote

Science on the other hand investigates the world seeks to make it intelligible for me this is how god moves men but it is not god itself because we are god and all that we experience in a physical world.

Yes that's right. We are the children of God who will eventually become like him because of our faith in this family relationship "and all that we experience in a physical world."

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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I'mConvinced
3 hours ago, and then said:

Your answers tell me that when you see these things occur, you will blame, not those doing the slaughtering, but those who yield up their lives.  Tell me, do you equate such behavior with the suicide bombers of Islam?  Are they all the same to you?  Just curious.

No, I'll sit to one side weeping at the stupidity of both.

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