Las Vegas Strip Shooting

[Gromdor]

3 hours ago, Gunn said:

Huh? Why wouldn't they be held accountable if they didn't kill themselves in the end? I thought the old argument between you and me was they couldn't plan things out if they were mentally ill in some way? And I'm saying they still can. Did you not read my example of Charles Manson being diagnosed with schizophrenia and paranoid delusional disorder? You know he was on death row before California changed it's laws. They sure held him accountable, even though he didn't personally do the murders.

I know that he didn't kill anyone.  His legally sane followers did it for him.  They locked him up because he was charismatic enough to convince normally sane people into doing murder.  No disagreement here.

My issue is your stance that no sane person could commit these atrocities, thusly the Vegas Shooter had to be insane.  As a veteran, I can attest that there are plenty of situations where sane people kill all the time.  The guy did it because he wanted to.  Why so hard to come to terms with that?

[Gunn]

8 hours ago, Gromdor said:

My issue is your stance that no sane person could commit these atrocities, thusly the Vegas Shooter had to be insane.  As a veteran, I can attest that there are plenty of situations where sane people kill all the time.  The guy did it because he wanted to.  Why so hard to come to terms with that?

Not when they kill themselves in the end. Explain to me how he could not have had some type of mental illness when he killed himself in the end after killing all those people? How does that work when they're suicidal like that? He obviously knew he was going to commit suicide in the very last moments. He even put up cameras in the hotel hallway to see the police coming, so as to keep them from arresting him or taking him down before he could take his on life. He planned that **** to the very end so he could kill himself. He obviously was one of those crazy people who blamed the whole world for his problems and figured that he should take out as many people as he could kill before he took his own life. So that tells me he had some mental health issues going on in his head when he did this. That's not sane logic when they do that, that's backwards logic or some type of mental illness.

Look, some people who want to commit murder don't kill themselves right after, and want to live another day to kill again. Yeah there are those types too, who are just plain mean and evil and I get what you're saying. But not with a murder/instant suicide type of incident like this. There has got to be a mental illness there to do what he did. So why can't you see and understand the difference?

Edited September 22, 2018 by Gunn

[Likely Guy]

On 9/22/2018 at 8:18 AM, Gromdor said:

I know that he didn't kill anyone.  His legally sane followers did it for him.  They locked him up because he was charismatic enough to convince normally sane people into doing murder.  No disagreement here.

My issue is your stance that no sane person could commit these atrocities, thusly the Vegas Shooter had to be insane.  As a veteran, I can attest that there are plenty of situations where sane people kill all the time.  The guy did it because he wanted to.  Why so hard to come to terms with that?

Insanity.

God. I wish that there were a perfect legal definition.

Edit: Not that it would matter that much,

Edited September 24, 2018 by Likely Guy

[Gunn]

2 hours ago, Likely Guy said:

Insanity.

God. I wish that there were a perfect legal definition.

Edit: Not that it would matter that much,

Hmm. Well I'm not 100 percent sure either, LG. But there are times when I think this definition comes pretty close to it.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Gunn

[aztek]

you do not have to be insane to commit a suicide, mass shootings are basically public suicides.  desire to kill does not mean mental illness. at least not one that would shield you from standing  trial

Edited September 24, 2018 by aztek

[yesnomaybe]

19 hours ago, Gunn said:

Hmm. Well I'm not 100 percent sure either, LG. But there are times when I think this definition comes pretty close to it.

Fake quote:

https://www.businessinsider.com/misattributed-quotes-2013-10

[Gunn]

7 hours ago, aztek said:

you do not have to be insane to commit a suicide, mass shootings are basically public suicides.  desire to kill does not mean mental illness. at least not one that would shield you from standing  trial

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here, Aztek. Are you saying that positive thinking people commit suicide as well? I don't get that. Because there has got to be some type of negative mental thinking (like being fired from a job, divorce, drugs, losing a fortune) that usually leads to depression and then sometimes cause people to commit suicide over it, because they can't get out of the spiraling negative thought pattern causing depression.

On the "desire to kill does not mean mental illness", I agree, but like I stated to Gromdor, some people who want to commit murder don't kill themselves right after because they want to live another day to kill again. So there are those types too, who are just plain mean and evil. Like Dylann Roof who committed the Charleston church murders.

 

2 hours ago, yesnomaybe said:

Fake quote:

https://www.businessinsider.com/misattributed-quotes-2013-10

Hey thanks new member and BTW, welcome to the forums. I did not know that. But I couldn't read the rest of the article because of a website owner pop-up telling me to disable my pop-up blockers, all I could read was that Einstein was not the original author before that happened. So do you or anyone else know who the original author was? Or is it one of those anonymous quotes? Regardless, I still think it's a pretty close definition in my experience. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Gunn

[Farmer77]

9 minutes ago, Gunn said:

On the "desire to kill does not mean mental illness", I agree, but like I stated to Gromdor, some people who want to commit murder don't kill themselves right after because they want to live another day to kill again. So there are those types too, who are just plain mean and evil. Like Dylann Roof who committed the Charleston church murders.

I think for many in these situations suicide could be the result of a cost benefit analysis rather than mental health issues. They made a choice , it didnt go exactly as dreamed, now they're left with another choice : life in prison and looking your horrified family in the face or simply eating a bullet.

[Gunn]

4 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

I think for many in these situations suicide could be the result of a cost benefit analysis rather than mental health issues. They made a choice , it didnt go exactly as dreamed, now they're left with another choice : life in prison and looking your horrified family in the face or simply eating a bullet.

Experts on mass shooters think that falls under the term Hopelessness, which is one of the classic signs of depression, classified as a mental disorder. What follows sometimes is a case temporary insanity and then suicide. 

But check this out and tell me what you or anybody else here thinks.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/machiavellians-gulling-the-rubes/201706/what-drives-suicidal-mass-murderers

Edited September 25, 2018 by Gunn

[Farmer77]

2 minutes ago, Gunn said:

But check this out and tell me what you or anybody else thinks.

Still reading but I scarily identify too well with this bit:

Quote

In these three cases we have sensational examples of catathymic crises.  Catathymia, a term not much used anymore, refers to a state of mind in which the individual is so overwrought with disturbing emotions that rational thought and the capacity for self-restraint are overwhelmed.  A person so afflicted would enter a dissociative state, probably to the breaking point of psychosis.  In short, temporary insanity. 

 

[Farmer77]

5 minutes ago, Gunn said:

Experts on mass shooters think that falls under the term Hopelessness, which is one of the signs of depression, classified as a mental disorder. What follows sometimes is a case temporary insanity and then suicide. 

But check this out and tell me what you or anybody else thinks.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/machiavellians-gulling-the-rubes/201706/what-drives-suicidal-mass-murderers

So I dont know what I think about it if im honest.

While I definitely understand "snapped" as quoted above I dont know that I agree that losing control in the moment actually qualifies as insanity.

Ill be chewing on this one for a bit

 

[Gunn]

27 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Still reading but I scarily identify too well with this bit:

 

I know what you mean and I've seen it happen to others. It's more scary when you are there and actually see someone flip out. It's like nothing but a raging animal comes out.

 

23 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

So I dont know what I think about it if im honest.

While I definitely understand "snapped" as quoted above I dont know that I agree that losing control in the moment actually qualifies as insanity.

Ill be chewing on this one for a bit

 

Okay, well this what the experts think and I'm inclined to agree with them, it makes much more sense to me. But yeah, it's a lot of info to take in. Also there is also the psychosis side effects certain psychological anxiety drugs can cause with some people. So keep in mind that can be another catalyst that sometimes causes temporary insanity.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Gunn

[Farmer77]

10 minutes ago, Gunn said:

Also there is also the psychosis side effects certain psychological anxiety drugs can cause with some people. So keep in mind that can be another catalyst that sometimes causes temporary insanity.

That one you'll get no argument from me on.

I once took a medication for nerve pain for MS called  Amitriptyline which is also used as an anti depressant. It made me have a mini psychotic break, lots of ranting and raving over a three day span culminating in me disappearing into the woods with my flyrod and my wife having to track me down and trick me into getting into the car so she could take me to the hospital.

The real kicker, I dont remember ANY of it beyond the first day, complete amnesia. It took a couple of days for it to lower in my system and I was fine.

I dont take prescription meds anymore.

God im lucky she stuck with me through that hell.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Farmer77

[aztek]

Just now, Gunn said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here, Aztek. Are you saying that positive thinking people commit suicide as well?

 

prbly not, at least not under ordinary circumstances , but negative thinking does not mean insane either.