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Sir Smoke aLot

Palestinian peace offensive

166 posts in this topic

Mr. Bibi '' doesn't accept fake Palestinian reconciliation ''. I was like... Is this man even awake these days? You do not even have the right to speak for Palestinians in this case even tho occupation made you believe that it is Israel only who has right to decide who lives and who dies in Palestine. But that is not how things work and i praise anyone with a bit of healthy common sense because that is only thing you need to realize how rude and aggressive this statement is. It is epilogue of over 100 of years of worst crimes against humanity.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Israel-wont-accept-fake-Palestinian-reconciliation-506623

'' “We expect everyone who talks about a peace process to recognize the State of Israel and, of course, the Jewish state,” Netanyahu said. “We cannot accept fake reconciliation on the Palestinian side that comes at the expense of our existence.” ''

He plays on '' Hamas charter card '' yet again :D As one knowledgable man said, '' i do not remember that USA asked of Stalin to remove communist manifesto and Lenin's state and revolution as an term before negotiations ''.

Long awaited unity of Palestinians is endangering Israel existence? As Israel named it, this is yet another of those 'vile' '' Palestinian peace offensives ''. I should have posted this in jokes subforum but it would be very worst kind of black humor.

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30 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Mr. Bibi '' doesn't accept fake Palestinian reconciliation ''. I was like... Is this man even awake these days? You do not even have the right to speak for Palestinians in this case even tho occupation made you believe that it is Israel only who has right to decide who lives and who dies in Palestine. But that is not how things work and i praise anyone with a bit of healthy common sense because that is only thing you need to realize how rude and aggressive this statement is. It is epilogue of over 100 of years of worst crimes against humanity.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Israel-wont-accept-fake-Palestinian-reconciliation-506623

'' “We expect everyone who talks about a peace process to recognize the State of Israel and, of course, the Jewish state,” Netanyahu said. “We cannot accept fake reconciliation on the Palestinian side that comes at the expense of our existence.” ''

He plays on '' Hamas charter card '' yet again :D As one knowledgable man said, '' i do not remember that USA asked of Stalin to remove communist manifesto and Lenin's state and revolution as an term before negotiations ''.

Long awaited unity of Palestinians is endangering Israel existence? As Israel named it, this is yet another of those 'vile' '' Palestinian peace offensives ''. I should have posted this in jokes subforum but it would be very worst kind of black humor.

That's because Stalin wasn't required by the UN to remove said manifesto as a precondition to joining the peace talks . The Palestine Liberation Organisation WAS. So that "knowledgeable" man was obviously NOT that "knowledgeable". Was his name Mahmoud Abbas by any chance ? :P

They stated they would do it. And they didn't. They where asked AGAIN.. and they said they would do it. But they didn't. They where asked AGAIN, and said that they HAD done it, but they hadn't. And still havn't.

The PLO - which is the supreme legal authority in "palestine" - is constitutionally committed to the destruction of the State of Israel. It has been fooling the world (which has politely avoided the issue in order to avoid derailing the "peace process") for 20 years. You cannot negotiate peace with an organisation that is committed to your destruction.

Bibi is absolutely right. Black humor indeed.

Meanwhile, to Netenyahu's statement; he is absolutely correct. If the PA forms an alliance with HAMAS, then HAMAS must formally forswear its constitution. HAMAS must forswear violence as a political tactic. HAMAS must agree to engage in - and abide by - international agreements. HAMAS must cease to be a recognised terrorist group. If they do NOT, then we have to accept that a merger with the PA would make the PA a terrorist organisation, and must be removed from all United Nations positions and functions, and all authority over the disputed territories. 

Seemples :)

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8 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

That's because Stalin wasn't required by the UN to remove said manifesto as a precondition to joining the peace talks . The Palestine Liberation Organisation WAS. So that "knowledgeable" man was obviously NOT that "knowledgeable". Was his name Mahmoud Abbas by any chance ?

That was not the point and you just made totally irrelevant remark. You do not make preconditions for peace talks, period. And no, it wasn't Abbas. This merely proves who is obstacle to peace. Israel never wanted two state solution.

It is pretty funny that you mention PLO when from 1987 until signing of Oslo accords it was clear that Israel has did all it can to say that people are terrorists which is contrary to every logic and every international law. Every step taken by Palestinians to moderate their views was meet with violence and offensive from Israel to undermine it.

I will gladly point out what happened in 1981, after Saudis have come out with proposal of peace with two state solution. About an month before that proposal PLO agreed to cease fire with Israel and has respected that agreement fully on every level even tho there were constant provocations from Israel side. Many sources point out how PLO was considering to accept two state solution.

The 'fun' starts after that. War in Lebanon, started in 1982 ( was started out of fears that international community would accept Palestinian statehood ), and, as said by Avner Yaniv ( Israeli political scientist ) that war was lead to stop Palestinian 'peace offensive' and destroy PLO as political force able to claim West Bank.

Israeli historian, Yehoshua Porath, also has something to say about this and it surely points out how Israel was frustrated by PLO respecting ceasefire and having possible claim to settle with two state solution.

See, m8, i didn't make up this right now in 2017, this is happening for long time now and repeating whenever Palestinians manage to either respect ceasefire ( Israel held Hamas responsible for any rocket launch from Gaza ) or unite among themselves. As seen at this page of THIS book there is stated that Arafat's ability to make ceasefire lasting was seen as ''a veritable catastrophe in the eyes of the Israeli government''. So, i go with Israeli sources here, would you say they are irrelevant?

In 1997. King of Jordan come out with Hamas proposal to Israel in which it was stated that they ( Hamas ) are ready to discuss all the matters. What happened after? Israel tryed to assasinate Hamas official, head of politics office. Was it not resonable and constructive offer by Hamas? Read about it please.

There are more examples of how Israel undermines any effort for peace from Palestinian side, 2nd intifada is great example for it. Long adopted belief was that '' Israel merely retalliates '' and some studys were in favor of that view. But then :http://www.pnas.org/content/107/42/17927.full , http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html

From 2nd article : '' if Israel wants to reduce rocket fire from Gaza, it should cherish and preserve the peace when it starts to break out, not be the first to kill. ''

Keep in mind that 2nd article is based on field data from mainstream organizations.

Sorry for long answer but this is only 1% of what i could write about the issue of '' Israel destroying prospects for peace and two state solution ''.

Thing is, Israel want's it all and it is Israeli officials and schollars who prove that too. Important notice, again, when Hamas won democratic elections Israel and it's 'friends in crime' were fast to label whole population of Gaza as terrorist and when Palestinians managed to settle with government of national unity between Fatah and Hamas, USA has already imposed tough sanctions which eventually have lead to breakup of that government.

I love your ''palestine'' remark. You surely do believe in '' the land without people for the people without the land '' because that is the origin of such claims and i've read two books which favor Israel and their essence is based on untrue claims which are easily and factually demolished.

I recommend you to visit Palestine photo project site and realize that there are physical proofs of not ''palestine'' but Palestine. If anything, i recomend you to adopt new strategies in apologising Israel ;) 

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If you do not want to read all this, and i understand that its long post i will make it short.

Since 1987 there are same efforts made by Palestinians to settle peace with Israel on the basis of two state solution which were undermined by Israel. If you wan't deeper analysis and reason of why i believe so then read this lenghty post above.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

That was not the point and you just made totally irrelevant remark. You do not make preconditions for peace talks, period. And no, it wasn't Abbas. This merely proves who is obstacle to peace. Israel never wanted two state solution....

If it "wasn't the point", then why did YOU cite the quotation ?

You most certainly DO make preconditions for peace talks, and that is exactly what happened during the so-called "Oslo" accords. Israel was required to recognise the PLO as a representative of the Palestinian people, and a partner to negotiate with. The PLO where required (amongst other things)  to amend their constitution to remove the sections calling for the destruction of Israel. these where known as the letters of recognition .

Perhaps you would like to confirm this, and then recast your long post in the light of it ? :)

Israel complied with its obligations. The PLO never did. They lied from day one. Just as they had lied previously. They NEVER aimed for a peaceful two-state solution. How COULD they, when their constitution required the destruction of the State of Israel ?

And Israel assasinated a HAMAS leader ? Well why not ? HAMAS was - and is - recognised as a terrorist organisation, constitutionally dedicated to the destruction of the State of Israel. We assassinate ISIS and Al Quada leaders... what's the difference between what we do, and what Israel did ?

Edited by RoofGardener
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3 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

If it "wasn't the point", then why did YOU cite the quotation ?

You most certainly DO make preconditions for peace talks, and that is exactly what happened during the so-called "Oslo" accords. Israel was required to recognise the PLO as a representative of the Palestinian people, and a partner to negotiate with. The PLO where required (amongst other things)  to amend their constitution to remove the sections calling for the destruction of Israel. these where known as the letters of recognition .

Perhaps you would like to confirm this, and then recast your long post in the light of it ? :)

 

In the context i cite the quotation it was relevant because Israel based it's position strictly and only over few paragraphs of constitution. Do you know what was cited in communist manifesto? USA could follow the same path with Soviets as Israel does with Palestinians and where would it lead us? 

I've also referenced to what has happened when there was realistic basis to expect solution and those were Israel's moves to undermine it and stop progress.

8 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Israel complied with its obligations. The PLO never did. They lied from day one. Just as they had lied previously. They NEVER aimed for a peaceful two-state solution. How COULD they, when their constitution required the destruction of the State of Israel ?

What i posted above surely points out that Israel did not comply and did it's best to provoke PLO and, eventually, launched full scale war against Lebanon for the same purpose ( keep in mind that PLO was based in Lebanon at the time, it was only reason why First Intifada actually was kind of succes, because Israel did not have possibility to blame PLO nor anyone else at Palestinian side ). Again, you continue on the same manner, are you even aware that, for example Hamas, has changed their charter and in it there is clear statement, to establish Palestinian state in West Bank and Gaza with East Jerusalem as it's capital, all with national concensus of Palestinians. 

And i talk about Hamas here, the same Hamas which Israel considers terrorist organization even tho PL in West Bank has way more allegations of violations of human rights than Hamas does, if we follow mainstream human rights organizations. Wherever one looks, there are illogical things taking place in this issue, this 'terrorist' label as one.

But that aside, let's go over '' destruction of the State of Israel ''.

And to make it short, as when Israel stated how it was '' defending itself in 1967 '' but actually planned whole operation before :

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol49no1/html_files/arab_israeli_war_1.html 

from the article : It stated that Israel could “defend successfully against simultaneous Arab attacks on all fronts . . . or hold on any three fronts while mounting successfully a major offensive on the fourth.”[5] '' )

image.jpg

As later determined, Israel striked first and destroyed Egyptian ariforce while it was on the ground.

What i would like to ask you is this, since Israel, when faced with far larger military in numbers, managed to totally defeat Egypt, Syria and Jordan and occupy a lot of land why do you say that Hamas dedication to destruction of Israel is a problem at all?

It is not a threat to Israel at all, especially not today when Palestinians do not have any possibility to lead a war and surely no means to destroy Israel. To claim that some parts of charters that Palestinian factions have are only obstacle to peace and to two state solution is lunacy when such threat did not have weight even in 1967 when faced with whole region.

In 1973 October war there were even Iraqi and North Korean fighters who were sent to fight Israel and how did it finish? By new addition of land to Israel.

Mainstream Israeli historian Ami Gluska in book, which is regarded as best scholarly study of 1967 war '' The Israeli Military and Origins of 1967 war '' confirmed Israeli cabinet decision and Soviet warning '' “The Soviet assessment from mid-May 1967 that Israel was about to strike at Syria was correct and well founded.” ''.

And now you try to tell me that opressed Palestinians pose threat to Israel existence and are only obstacle to peace? It's clear that Israel knows very well that UN still favors them, for one reason or the other, and acts accordingly.

Not to mention that USA has opened it's first military base in Israel just this september. Another addition to Israel's national security and big one if you ask me.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

AOK, lets summarise.

You state that the PLO want peace. When they where invited to what became the Oslo discussions, they where required to forswear violence, and - explicitly - to remove/amend those sections of their constitution that mandate the desetruction of Israel. That was a requirement for the meeting. Israel also had conditions it had to meet, as a prerequisite for attending the meeting.

Israel met its conditions. The PLO didn't meet theirs, and still havn't. They piled lie upon lie upon lie and made at least one US president look a complete idiot in the Rose Garden as a consequence.

Sir Smokealot.. here's a question for you. If the PLO truly wants peace with Israel, and a two-state "solution", then why has it so strongly and continuously resisted the simple act of modifying its constitution to remove the requirement that Israel be destroyed ?

Thank about that for a minute; if the constitution is not important to the PLO, then why doesn't it acceed to that simple change ? A change that it repeatedly promised to the world that it would make, and then even claimed (falsely) that it HAD made ?

On the other hand, if the constitution document IS important to the PLO, then that means that the commitment to the destruction of Israel (and the rejection of international peace solutions) is ALSO important.

This is the entity that you are dealing with. An organisation that twists and turns and distorts truth. The constitution issue - whilst it may seem small in the grand scheme of things - reveals the PLO's TRUE intentions. The destruction of Israel.

Israel understands this, even if President Carter didn't. And THAT is why they won't negotiate UNTIL the leopard shows evidence of changing its spots.

 

Now...  you state that Hamas has changed its charter. Can  you show me a link to the current, authorised Hamas charter ? And as for Jerusalem; can you give me ANY historical or cultural reason why Jerusalem should be considered a capital city of a Palestinian State ? Other than to spite the Israeli's, who have been claiming it for hundreds, if not thousands, of years ?

Edited by RoofGardener
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I've already gone through whole issue of Palestinian charters. Paragraphs in those charters which include terms as '' Jihad '' and destruction of Israel can not be used as only obstacle to peace, that is my point. In many occassions, when advancements were made either inside Palestinian community or when promoted by other parties ( such as Jordan, Saudis, Egypt.. ) it was meet with violence and eruption of violence induced by Israel to stop any progress. There are proofs for that and i noted some of it above.

Oslo accords are subject for itself and it is unrealistic to include in any serious talk, mainly because of '' right of return '' which can only be basis for concesions by Israel as those rights can not be forced in any way. So i leave it there not to distract from main issue which is '' Israel doesn't want peace and two state solution ''.

Again, you focus on '' destruction of Israel '' and with all respect, that is absurd claim to be made and if we follow that logic than Hamas was greatest asset of Israel in last couple of decades.

In new charter it is adopted what was not clearly stated before, Hamas openly states it's opposition to Zionism, not to Jewish people as those two are not synonymes anyhow. It states it's right to ressistance and also armed resistance which is legitimate and in harmony with every international law and human right. So, keep in mind that occupation is what give Hamas good legal grounds.

I have problems to find link i have saved in bookmarks, it's hard to find good source again but this one will serve it's purpose : http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-charter-1637794876

Most important aspect to note is that Hamas agrees with 1967 borders solution with two states. Isn't it a bit weird to claim that it wants destruction of Israel when it is clear they are open for 1967 borders?

Keep in mind that 1967 borders are contrary to '' UNGA 181, UNGA 194 UNSC 242, UNGA 3236, A/RES/43/177 & A/RES/67/19 ''. Even so, and with resolutions behind Oslo, Hamas publicly stated it would respect 1967 borders agreement. What else would Israel possibly need to get to the table?

 

 

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8 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

USA could follow the same path with Soviets as Israel does with Palestinians and where would it lead us? 

This statement is very telling.  I happen to believe that the outcome you allude to as possible here, is exactly what the world is going to witness in the future.  I predict that Israel will be coerced into a "peace" agreement with the Palestinians that will come into effect over a seven-year period.  Since neither side trusts the other, the implementation will be timed to PROVE each side is trustworthy.  The treaty will be broken in 3 and 1/2 years.  It won't matter to the world, which side is responsible for breaking it.  All HELL is going to break loose.  It wouldn't surprise me if Trump was the one to get the two sides to "agree" to a treaty.  That might be the only thing he could do to finally make the Left shut up, already.  :no:

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9 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

UN still favors them, for one reason or the other, and acts accordingly.

:w00t:   With friends like THAT, who needs enemies?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

That has to be the most preposterous statement you've ever made concerning Israel and the Palestinians.  

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8 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Hamas publicly stated it would respect 1967 borders agreement. What else would Israel possibly need to get to the table?

 

Maybe if Hamas showed the goodwill gesture of publicly disavowing violence against Jews by removing school books that teach small children to dehumanize them?  Until someone does this, why should Israelis ever believe that the Palestinians want to peacefully coexist?  It really does start with the children.  We both know it.  There has been too much bloodletting by both sides for adults to quickly forgive and forget.  That the Palestinian leaders still use the schools to spread such Libels is proof that they are only using the process in a cynical way to gain the ultimate advantage.  They will someday bring a great catastrophe on their people.

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16 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

.......

I have problems to find link i have saved in bookmarks, it's hard to find good source again but this one will serve it's purpose : http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-charter-1637794876...

Thanks for that link Sir SmokeaLot...I wasn't aware of that announcement. I'll read through the new charter (if that is what it is), and get back to you. :)

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4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Thanks for that link Sir SmokeaLot...I wasn't aware of that announcement. I'll read through the new charter (if that is what it is), and get back to you. :)

I'll try to find better link but maybe that one is also correct. All in all i just hope this conflict ends man, the rest of the world depends on that solution both in terms of security and better understanding among people of all races not just between Jews and Muslims and actually, i do not believe there is conflict between the two, it's rather political conflict than any other. There was a lot of propaganda which come out of this issue and that, as a result, gave rise to many misunderstandings.

Personally, i think if people as whole are indeed for peace than two states solution ( which is realistic, resonable to ask for ) based on security for civilians on both sides, unconditional security and peaceful coexistence, with respect for all international laws, than peace is not hard to achieve at all. There will be end of this conflict i just hope not in blood as too much was done over 100+ years. In case where people on both sides support solution, fully, than politicians can't do much to oppose it. Humanity cant advance as long as this is let unsolved, maybe we can agree there?

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13 hours ago, and then said:

This statement is very telling.  I happen to believe that the outcome you allude to as possible here, is exactly what the world is going to witness in the future.  I predict that Israel will be coerced into a "peace" agreement with the Palestinians that will come into effect over a seven-year period.  Since neither side trusts the other, the implementation will be timed to PROVE each side is trustworthy.  The treaty will be broken in 3 and 1/2 years.  It won't matter to the world, which side is responsible for breaking it.  All HELL is going to break loose.  It wouldn't surprise me if Trump was the one to get the two sides to "agree" to a treaty.  That might be the only thing he could do to finally make the Left shut up, already.  :no:

I hope there will be peace agreement and if it had to be broken let it be broken, but first we have to have peace :)

As for Trump, i have picture somewhere of his father with new settlers in Holy Lands, he provided a lot of financial support for illegal settlements so i doubt Trump would do anything which doesn't fully go in favor of Israel. He opened first USA military base there, in wake of Syrian conflict coming to an end with Assad staying in power, which made Israel frustrated, as they have already said officially, militants are more favorable neighbours than Assad government.

Trump, even if he wan't justice and good solution for both sides he can't go against the state, unfortuantely ( that was seen in many administrations since Lyndon Johnson for example ).

13 hours ago, and then said:

:w00t:   With friends like THAT, who needs enemies?

How many resolutions UN made which Israel didn't implement? And how did Israel get 'punished' for that? By condemnations :) I'd like such friend for my country so that there would be no Mr. Veto for Srebrenica genocide victims. But, such is the world.

12 hours ago, and then said:

Maybe if Hamas showed the goodwill gesture of publicly disavowing violence against Jews by removing school books that teach small children to dehumanize them? 

Even around year 2000 Hamas wanted to implement that which was implemented now. They clearly distance between Jews and Zionist regime. Jews are not enemies, afterall there are so many Jewish people who are against occupation and in dissagreement with many of aspects of civil and political life in Israel. I coul dname some people now but it would be pointless as there are so many, from Israel too, whom i respect deeply for their humanity before anything else. War induce people to do terrible things with thinking of greater goal and Hamas is not only one to blame for it, there is a lot of hate induced in Israel too especially towards Arab children but that is product of over century of injustice towards native population and both sides feel effects of that on their own people. That is inevitable.

 

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SirSmokeALot... I think this is one of those debates where we could circle around for ever. 

You seem to favour the paradigm that "Palestinians Good, Israeli's Bad", whereas I tend to favour the opposite. 

Not that the Palestinians people are particularly BAD... they just have vicious leadership. If anything, they ARE the victims, but victims of Arab mendacity, cynicism, betrayal, and with a dose of Islamic Supremacism thrown into the mix. (by which I mean... from the surrounding Arab nations.. with some honourable exceptions). The interference of the Soviet Union (which practically created the PLO) didn't help. 

And not that the Israeli's are particularly GOOD.. there are some nasty Zionist Supremacists amongst their politicians. 

But on balance; I regard any "peace" offerings from the PLO with deep distrust, as I regard the PLO as having a track record of cynically abusing such moves as being purely tactical weapons, rather than genuine offers. At the same time, I regard the Israeli's as broadly WANTING peace, and having a track record of honouring peace agreements in the spirit that they where intended. 

Well, we shall see. 

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8 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

And not that the Israeli's are particularly GOOD.. there are some nasty Zionist Supremacists amongst their politicians. 

You've touched on the greatest difference between these two peoples, IMO.  In Israel, there is an entire political culture that pushes for peace, even to the point of near insanity, in light of the history of the country but where is a similar dissenting population in Gaza or the West Bank?  Are we to believe that such a group of people ALL believe and agree with a governing body that denies them the vote for years and executes or jails dissenters?  

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Well, that is because Israel is a democracy with separation between executive, legislature and judiciary. In that environment, it is possible for a popular peace movement to develop. No doubt it would be observed by Shin Bett, and "dirty tricks" could be used against its leaders, but only within a - relatively liberal - judicial framework. 

The PLO is an authoritarian theocratic oligarchy and a "police state". Any dissent is met with persecution and execution. A genuine populist peace movement has no chance to develop, and would be struggling against an education system that is a direct tool of the PLO executive, and incorporates both political and religious indoctrination. 

The only "peace movement" can come from the PLO executive itself, rather than being any sort of popular expression. 

Edited by RoofGardener
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On 10/5/2017 at 7:25 AM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I hope there will be peace agreement and if it had to be broken let it be broken, but first we have to have peace :)

Well, that would be grand and cause the Europeans and some Americans to feel all warm and fuzzy for a while, but if we look at how it would appear "on the ground", it would work out exclusively to the benefit of one side.  The Palestinians are never asked to do anything except to promise to forbear from using violence.  The Israelis would be physically relinquishing territory that acts as a buffer for their security should a new conflict arise.  Do you see the problem here?  I think we both know how such a deal will end.  Hamas would set up new fortifications, continue digging tunnels, and start firing rockets within a year or so.  

I believe that a peace agreement will be reached - possibly during Trump's presidency.  If the implementation is to be a timed withdrawal over 7 years, the world needs to put on its seatbelts.  

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On 10/8/2017 at 9:34 AM, RoofGardener said:

SirSmokeALot... I think this is one of those debates where we could circle around for ever. 

You seem to favour the paradigm that "Palestinians Good, Israeli's Bad", whereas I tend to favour the opposite. 

Not that the Palestinians people are particularly BAD... they just have vicious leadership. If anything, they ARE the victims, but victims of Arab mendacity, cynicism, betrayal, and with a dose of Islamic Supremacism thrown into the mix. (by which I mean... from the surrounding Arab nations.. with some honourable exceptions). The interference of the Soviet Union (which practically created the PLO) didn't help. 

And not that the Israeli's are particularly GOOD.. there are some nasty Zionist Supremacists amongst their politicians. 

But on balance; I regard any "peace" offerings from the PLO with deep distrust, as I regard the PLO as having a track record of cynically abusing such moves as being purely tactical weapons, rather than genuine offers. At the same time, I regard the Israeli's as broadly WANTING peace, and having a track record of honouring peace agreements in the spirit that they where intended. 

Well, we shall see. 

It is one of those, i agree, we have very different views but we shall see what the future holds. Even tho, time was never Palestinian friend.

On 10/9/2017 at 7:08 PM, and then said:

Well, that would be grand and cause the Europeans and some Americans to feel all warm and fuzzy for a while, but if we look at how it would appear "on the ground", it would work out exclusively to the benefit of one side.  The Palestinians are never asked to do anything except to promise to forbear from using violence.  The Israelis would be physically relinquishing territory that acts as a buffer for their security should a new conflict arise.  Do you see the problem here?  I think we both know how such a deal will end.  Hamas would set up new fortifications, continue digging tunnels, and start firing rockets within a year or so.  

I believe that a peace agreement will be reached - possibly during Trump's presidency.  If the implementation is to be a timed withdrawal over 7 years, the world needs to put on its seatbelts.  

I let romanse get into my mind every once in a while, even if i doubt it totally, and i do it now too, hoping for just solution and proposal for peace.

And my friend, Palestinians were always asked to do more than to simply end the violence. Since Camp David up to Trump now. I've read those deals and know their essence, Palestinians were never offerend full sovereignity and everything which resembles statehood.

I do not expect Trump to change that either. They will, again, get presented with 'solution' which they can not accept. But as @RoofGardener say, it's neverending talk about essentially simple issue which got complicated over years so let's wait and hope for security and prosperity of both Israeli and Palestinian people.

Even expressing hopes for just solution proposed by USA is contrary to my evaluation of ME but who knows, these are crazy times and concessions have to be made on both sides.

 

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Well, with the recent changes in SA and the inner Palestinian improvements I hope that some progress towards Israely-Arab peace talks will be made. I wish all the best for lasting peace in the middle east for all, Israelies, Arabs and all others. I just hope that an Idiot outside this area does not popp up and screws everything up. I believe that people from this area can find easier peace as long as special interrests from outside don't prevail.

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On 12/4/2017 at 9:48 AM, odas said:

Well, with the recent changes in SA and the inner Palestinian improvements I hope that some progress towards Israely-Arab peace talks will be made. I wish all the best for lasting peace in the middle east for all, Israelies, Arabs and all others. I just hope that an Idiot outside this area does not popp up and screws everything up. I believe that people from this area can find easier peace as long as special interrests from outside don't prevail.

Oops!

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1 hour ago, Likely Guy said:

Oops!

Yup.

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On 12/4/2017 at 11:48 AM, odas said:

I believe that people from this area can find easier peace as long as special interrests from outside don't prevail.

The last 70 years of experience seem to tell against that.  The Palestinians haven't moved an inch from their initial refusal to live alongside a state for the Jewish people.  Sure, there are Israelis who are just as hard headed but if the Palestinian leadership actually decided to enforce a peace plan, there WOULD be peace.

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Trump has officially started ww3 

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5 minutes ago, Mr.United_Nations said:

Trump has officially started ww3 

Maybe not ww3 but from this day on every innocent casulty will be on his bloody hands. Coward. Inciting violance but has not seen a second of a war in close distance. It's always the cowards. 

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