Palestinian peace offensive

[+and-then]

16 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

defending the undefendable.

So, calling a nation's capital by its right and historic name is indefensible?  Can we say the same of London?  Paris, Moscow, Beijing or any other European nation's accepted capital?  What makes the acceptance of Jerusalem as Israel's capital - as it has been since King David's time, indefensible?  The president made it clear that no borders for the city would be set by anyone except the parties involved.  How they share the city is to be determined through NEGOTIATIONS.  The reaction of the world to such an event only clarifies their intentions toward the eventual fate of the Jewish state.  Glad to see you've outed yourself as well.  As loud as the UN is squealing, it's clear that Trump made the correct move.  Sometimes it takes a serious irritant to restart a stalled process.  I still believe that we could see a negotiated treaty between them before he leaves office.  The key to getting Israel on board again will be PROOF that the violence will stop as they give up land.  That means the retreat from territory will be in a phased (timed) manner.  If that time period is seven years... oh my.

[Only_]

4 hours ago, and then said:

 What makes the acceptance of Jerusalem as Israel's capital - as it has been since King David's time, indefensible?  The president made it clear that no borders for the city would be set by anyone except the parties involved.

The fact that Palestinians currently make up half of East Jerusalem's population? That muslims have their own history with the 'Holy City' and built shrines and temples (Dome of Rock, al-Aqsa Mosque)? To claim that Jerusalem belongs to the Jews alone is simply out of touch with reality. But I guess you don't care, since along with some American evangelicals you await for a physical Christ to remanifest in Biblical Zion.

Edited December 21, 2017 by TruthSeeker_

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

The fact that Palestinians currently make up half of East Jerusalem's population?

And?  Trump said nothing about what agreement the Palestinians and Jews must reach.  They still have to negotiate it.  Simply recognizing the Jewish right to some part of Jerusalem is only a red line if the alternative is NO part of Jerusalem for Israel.

[RAyMO]

3 hours ago, and then said:

Simply recognizing the Jewish right to some part of Jerusalem is only a red line if the alternative is NO part of Jerusalem for Israel.

Rose tinted logic. The status of Jerusalem should be left to the negotiations. Not that I believe there will be any  - it seems to me that Israel is following a route to a one state solution by stealth. Well maybe not stealth.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

7 hours ago, RAyMO said:

Rose tinted logic. The status of Jerusalem should be left to the negotiations. Not that I believe there will be any  - it seems to me that Israel is following a route to a one state solution by stealth. Well maybe not stealth.

It seems that 'Isratine' as proposed by Gadaffi wasn't unrealistic  

Now, more seriously, problem with Israeli view is that they wan't Jewish state, ethnocracy instead of providing constructive proposals for peace first and for settling their internal things after. If they say it's a Jewish state and manage to get consensus within Israel than that is all that matters regarding fairy tale about 'recognition'.

Back in 1993 when numerous studies have been done about Letani river and Lebanon war one professor had fantastic proposal. Instead of fighting for resources Israel had means to propose things like offering Arabs desalination technology ( in which Israel is leading in the world ), Negev desert for land swaps with which West Bank and Gaza would be connected. It would then be reasonable to expect of Palestinians to disband 'right of return' request and agree to leave the 'west wall' of Mount complex in East Jerusalem to Jewish state.

Problem with such visions is that Israel has cemented it's strategy of preserving status quo and shaping public opinion through many affiliates by colorful methods with intention to legalize land grabs and oppression of Palestinians. 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

13 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

The fact that Palestinians currently make up half of East Jerusalem's population? That muslims have their own history with the 'Holy City' and built shrines and temples (Dome of Rock, al-Aqsa Mosque)? To claim that Jerusalem belongs to the Jews alone is simply out of touch with reality. But I guess you don't care, since along with some American evangelicals you await for a physical Christ to remanifest in Biblical Zion.

If facts and scholarship were included when this problem was first approached than we would have peace in ME today. Unfortunately that was not the case and methods used were different.

After more than a century of violence we now see distorted reality. That reality is that founding fathers of terrorism ( Irgun and other Zionist militant groups legacy ) are saying that Jerusalem's holy ground is theirs only and they also accuse native population of being terrorist. Then, finally, by totally disregarding even the most basic human rights of Palestinians...

One morning there will be no Al Aqsa anymore and last of Palestinians from East Jerusalem will be expelled by IDF. Such move would lead to serious security problem for Israel but since Israel has a habit to make it's situation worse it might be doing it, step by step.

[RAyMO]

4 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

It seems that 'Isratine' as proposed by Gadaffi wasn't unrealistic  

Have to admit - I had to look that up. Thanks for the education.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

17 hours ago, RAyMO said:

Have to admit - I had to look that up. Thanks for the education.

Welcome, highly recommended is to watch speech by Gadaffi in which he explains why he has such opinion, two ( bmo ) solid points he makes. 

[RoofGardener]

On 12/21/2017 at 6:59 AM, and then said:

And?  Trump said nothing about what agreement the Palestinians and Jews must reach.  They still have to negotiate it.  Simply recognizing the Jewish right to some part of Jerusalem is only a red line if the alternative is NO part of Jerusalem for Israel.

I'm not sure I ENTIRELY understand the text of the UN General Assembly resolution. 

I vaguely recall that countries like Pakistan and Egypt.. to say nothing about the PLO... have publicly proclaimed "East Jerusalem" as being the capital of the new Palestinian state. Doesn't that - in and of itself - fall foul of this resolution ? 

(I havn't done all of my homework on this... so I'm throwing it open to the Community to discuss..not making a point)

[+and-then]

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I'm not sure I ENTIRELY understand the text of the UN General Assembly resolution. 

I vaguely recall that countries like Pakistan and Egypt.. to say nothing about the PLO... have publicly proclaimed "East Jerusalem" as being the capital of the new Palestinian state. Doesn't that - in and of itself - fall foul of this resolution ? 

(I havn't done all of my homework on this... so I'm throwing it open to the Community to discuss..not making a point)

Not at all.  Trump was careful to state that the final status of who owns which part of the city would be totally left to the negotiating parties.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-president-trump-jerusalem/

[+joc]

In what other reality does a country not get to make the city of their choice their capital?

There is no Palestinian State.  But there is and has been and will continue to be The State of Israel.

[RoofGardener]

10 hours ago, and then said:

Not at all.  Trump was careful to state that the final status of who owns which part of the city would be totally left to the negotiating parties.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-president-trump-jerusalem/

I presume the problem is that Israel keeps stating something about an "undivided Jerusalem" being the capital of Israel, which I take to mean the whole of Jerusalem, including "East Jerusalem", which would constitute a change in the status of the city. By moving its embassy to Jerusalem, and recognising West Jerusalem as the Israeli captial city, Congress could be regarded as legitimising that claim ? 

One thing that puzzles me is this; when the PLO claimed that East Jerusalem was going to be the capital city of a future Palestinian State, was that not ALSO an attempt to "change the status" of the city ? How has it come to pass that East Jerusalem is suddenly "Palestinian" territory ? (by "Palestinian", I mean in the sense of a Palestinian sovereign state).

[+and-then]

Elements within both sides demand all of the city, this is true.  But this wasn't the particular question I responded to.  I was simply pointing out that Trump did not align himself with either side's argument.  He's being accused of siding with Israel and against the Palestinians.  His statement clearly proves this is not the case.  One might ask, how is it that Israel is expected to give up their ancient capital in any negotiation?  My faith tells me an agreement WILL occur at some point but I can't envision a government in Israel acceding to the loss of Jerusalem, ever.  The reaction of the Palestinian leadership is instructive.  They immediately threatened violence and turned to the UN for statehood.  It actually amazes me that this puzzle will be "solved" someday.  The circumstances that would be needed to bring that about will be interesting, indeed.

[RoofGardener]

On 12/20/2017 at 10:55 AM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

If you do not agree with things like this one in the video below then you are hater :

Video is relevant to the topic, recommended to watch it. I was so sad after watching reports about it in regional medias which are very biased and supportive of Israel. Even tho the public here is naturally supportive towards Palestinian freedom and are perfectly aware of the suffering which Palestinians have to go through in their daily lives.

http://balkans.aljazeera.net/vijesti/u-sarajevu-odrzan-protest-podrske-palestini link in which there is video from gathering in Sarajevo.

By killing man in wheelchair with sniper shot and by targeting kids in the head ( http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/palestinian-teen-coma-shot-rubber-bullet-171217210649934.html ) in recent protests IDF is breaking laws of their own colonial project state.

Now, that is hate. Unarmed protests, even if they include people who are throwing rocks, those protests must not be responded to by firearms. It's forbidden, as i said, even in laws of Israel.

But do laws apply to subhumans? From Israeli perspective Palestinians are subhumans, hence such treatment on the field. That, my friends, that is hate in it's purest form.

 

ROFL.... the innocent double-amputee.

It is true he lost his legs in an Israeli air strike, but he was already limping after being shot by HAMAS. And why did HAMAS shoot him ? Because Ibrahim Abu Thuraya was a member of Force 17 - now a part of the FATAH Presidential Guard, but at the time a type of commando/special-forces unit. He was a SOLDIER (or terrorist, depending how you choose to define terms). 

He was hit in an air strike during operation Cast Lead because he was part of a fighting cell, and was NOT an  "innocent civilian". And there is some suggestion that he intended martydom at the protest in which he was shot. 

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5060562,00.html

https://www.rt.com/news/413699-un-shocking-killing-disabled-palestinian/

The only statement about his death comes from the Gaza Medical authorities, who area branch of HAMAS, and who have a  record of lying in order to 'promote the cause'. No post-mortem details - particularly ballistics - where provided. Was Ibrahim shot by the IDF ? It is possible. But it is also possible that he was shot by his own side in order to foment world opinion against the US deceleration regarding Jerusalem. 

And finally, he was NOT "shot in his wheelchair". He had left the wheelchair, and was crawling towards the security fence. If I was a guard on that fence, I'd be worried about suicide bombing !

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 12/23/2017 at 5:07 AM, joc said:

In what other reality does a country not get to make the city of their choice their capital?

There is no Palestinian State.  But there is and has been and will continue to be The State of Israel.

That claim is one of the oldest claims by Zionists and one which has been debunked long time ago. There is Palestinian state it's within the right of Palestinian people for self determination.

On more serious note - even decades of digging around the holy lands haven't managed to prove continuation of Israel, nor it's existence as such to be more precise. There were Kingdoms of David and then it was Kingdom of Solomon. It lasted for some 70 years and the land it occupied was so little when compared to Israel today that it's really absurd and insulting to common sense to base their claims over that.

Source for my claim is book by J.M.N. Jeffries ( Daily Mail writer and journalist who visited Palestine back in early 1900s with Lord Northcliffe becoming highly interested in the subject ) '' Palestine: The reality '' in which he explained scripture and false claim of continuation of the State of Israel. Those are facts and, as noted in the book : '' one could start walking in the morning and reach the border of Kingdom of Solomon by the evening ''.

The Holy Bible doesn't explicitly mention continuation of the State of Israel but quite contrary, it's in line with Torah's teachings.

But let's get to present, if Israel has the right to make capital in occupied lands than Palestine has the right to make East Jerusalem as their capital. That is disputed land hence mutual agreement being the only viable option which could make peace eventually. 

On 12/30/2017 at 10:56 AM, RoofGardener said:

ROFL.... the innocent double-amputee.

Occupy his land. Torture him and his family on daily basis ( Eran Efrati explained the reality of occupation ). Than take his legs. Than take his life. Than, after all of that has been forgotten by MSM, say '' ROFL '' on the fact that he was shot dead while peacefully weaving Palestine flag.

On 12/30/2017 at 10:56 AM, RoofGardener said:

And finally, he was NOT "shot in his wheelchair". He had left the wheelchair, and was crawling towards the security fence. If I was a guard on that fence, I'd be worried about suicide bombing !

The fact that he doesn't have legs is not important for you. Basically, if someone is out of wheelchair than he is not disabled anymore? Tell that apology to family of Rachel Corrie.

How did the man without his legs - who was weaving Palestine flag - became 'security risk' for occupying army? What's worse, you suspect suicide bombing?

This ain't the first nor the last innocent victim of occupation.

[edit] to add : Israel has the right to fear, so do any individual on this planet but when our fears start to badly influence lives of other people - than we lose that right to fear and inherited fear became mental disease because if we all would kill that which we fear than overpopulation would never became a problem. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Sir Smoke aLot

[RoofGardener]

Oh PLEASE  SirSmokeALot... be realistic.

If you see somebody crawling towards you, it is not immediately obvious who they are, or even if they are disabled. And they where crawling towards the security fence. It would hardly be irrational for any of the soldiers to suspect that this might be a suicide bomb attack. It would hardly be unprecedented for the Palestinians, would it ?