Why do you lose 21 grams when you die?

[Rufio85]

I remember reading somewhere that energy does have more mass the faster it travels.

E = mc2

I hear when energy approaches the speed of light, the mass increases to near infinity.

I don't think energy has much mass when it's near stationary though. I'd need to look it up to verify...

Edited January 9, 2005 by Rufio85

[markwasp]

I quite belive the 21 GRAMS you loose when you die is your soul. I have no edvience, its just my personal beleive.

[seeking]

I remember reading somewhere that energy does have more mass the faster it travels.

E = mc2

I hear when energy approaches the speed of light, the mass increases to near infinity.

I don't think energy has much mass when it's near stationary though. I'd need to look it up to verify...

443188[/snapback]

that is correct, the faster you move the more energy is needed to "push" you, if E gets bigger than that means either M or C has to also get bigger, and because C is a constant that leaves M, meaning M or your mass must increase while your moving, when you heart stops beating, and your lungs stop breathing, ect you are no longer moving, making E go down, meaning M will also go down as C still remains constant, because these things our body does do not take much energy, it is expected the mass differential will also be very small (21g maybe?) my idea on why it takes longer on people than others is because for 1 everyones heart/lungs are different sizes, and everyones heart beats at a different pace and breath in different incriements, and for 2 the process of kinetic energy transfering into potential may take a period of time

[The Raven]

This is quite and interesting thread, and I've got a few questions...

If the result is varied, usually larger, than I can believe it is some sort of waste and moisture, ETC. The thing is, people pass on differently, not everyone has the same amount of oxygen in their lungs or the same amount of waste in their bowels.

If the results are the same, a constant 21 grams or maybe give or take 1 gram, I see this as very strange. Like I said before, not everyone has the same amount of things in them, so either something was leaving that weighed 20-22 grams, OR somehow the dead body can still preform actions and is programmed to release exactly this amount for who knows why. Personally I'm leaning towards something weighing 20-22 grams unless someone can give me a credible source that says a greater range of weight. This by no means states that it is the soul, but that is a possibility.

[aquatus1]

It really surprises me, sometimes, how willing some people are, to believe in something simply because they have never heard of it before, and conclude that no one else must have heard of it either. Has anyone noticed that many of the theories seen on this forum, such as the various "proofs" of creationism, of psychic powers, of ghosts, of all those phenomena that have existed for millenia, are the exact same theories that have been heard and repeated over and over again by every new generation that comes by? For a real phenomena to have such little in the way of variation is astounding. Where are the new accounts? Where are the modern studies?

I would submit that the simply reason these things are still in the general conscious is only because the new generation is so excited at discovering something so beyond mainstream that it dispenses with the simple step of confirmation in the eagerness to proclaim that they have knowledge beyond that that the authority figures over them have. The sole reason these stories continue to exist is simply so that the young can stroke their newly emerging egos concerning their individuality. By holding these alternative theories as trophies, they proudly seperate themselves from a conventional maturity they both envy, yet are too "cool" to express a desire to be a part of.

But I digress. We are talking about the weight of a soul. 21 Grams.

Has anyone bothered to check the credibility? The source?

Almost a full century ago, back in 1907, Dr. Duncan MacDougall of Haverhill, Massachusetts theorized that the soul was material, and therefore, should be able to be measured at the precise time of death, by comparing the weight of a person still alive to that of a person deceased. His test sample consisted of 6, only six, people. The test bed was, quite literally, a bed, a cot actually, no metal or plastic or anything, set atop a set of scales accurate to 2/10ths of an ounce. For those that would object to such a lack of precision measurement, remember that this was still the turn of the century technology, and the man did the best he could.

So, what were the results? Out of six tests, two had to be discarded, one showed an immediate drop in weight, two showed an immediate drop in weight which increased with the passage of time, and one showed an immediate drop in weight which reversed itself but later recurred. To be perfectly frank, the results were haphazard, to say the least. Several problems plagued the study, not the least of which was determining when, exactly, the subject was dead.

He also tried to repeat his experiments on fifteen dogs. I could go into the various problems such a study has, including a ridiculously small representative sample, an inability to remove various factors which could have compromised the experiment, and certain interpretations of results that were...questionable. To be fair, Dr. MacDougall was conducting what he considered a serious scientific study, but he simply didn't do it very well, partly because the technology of the 1900's just wasn't there, partly because scientific methodology in those days wasn't what we consider acceptable today, and partly because...well, he just didn't do a very good job.

Nonetheless, on thing stands perfectly clear. For those arguing against this, there is absolutely no reason to go theorizing on what could have caused a sudden loss of weight in a dead body until such time that it is confirmed that a sudden loss of weight actually occured. For those arguing in favor of this, please consider: You are basing your arguments on a single experiment done once over a century ago, and not even done properly at that. To be frank, the majority of what this thread has contained, such as precision scales, metal beds, IV, and whatnot, all that has been added by rumor and time. This study has become nothing more than an urban legend, and should be accorded only that amount of credibility one gives to such outlandishly exagerated stories.

I invite you to read about the original studies.

Soul Man

Great Moments in Science

[+joc]

The soul, the life force, whatever one wants to call it....does it have weight? That is the question being discussed here. My question is how many tax dollars went into funding this ludicrous experiment.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

The soul, the life force, whatever one wants to call it....does it have weight?  That is the question being discussed here.  My question is how many tax dollars went into funding this ludicrous experiment.

443232[/snapback]

Well, yes it is ludricous. No matter how many tax dollars went into proving the existence of a soul, and the evidence it provided, some peopel woul still obstinantly refuse to accept it. That's ludicrous.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Ashley, do you spend a lot of time hugging dying people? If so, I would have to wonder if you're a carrier of some kind of fatal disease? More over, I'd have to wonder how on earth you could be so sensative as to be accutely aware of the sudden loss of 20grams from a body...such a weight is negligable. Even the smallest person weights several thousand grams...there's no way you could possibly be aware of the sudden loss

My best guess is that you're fibbing again

443155[/snapback]

I don't go around 'hugging dying people', I have been faced with alot of death in my life, something most people don't have to face. And you can guess all you want, the only comeback you have is 'oh she's lying/fibbing' when I say something you can't accept. Grow up.

[Stellar]

Well, yes it is ludricous. No matter how many tax dollars went into proving the existence of a soul, and the evidence it provided, some peopel woul still obstinantly refuse to accept it. That's ludicrous.

Even if 21g was lost in everyone, that wouldnt prove that it was the soul. All it would prove is that people loose 21g when they die.

I don't go around 'hugging dying people', I have been faced with alot of death in my life, something most people don't have to face. And you can guess all you want, the only comeback you have is 'oh she's lying/fibbing' when I say something you can't accept. Grow up.

And you held each one of these people... you've actually held them in the air when they died, and you notice a change of 21g?

[Curiosity]

*wonders*

Say someone can astral project or have an OBE at will, if the body's wieght was recorded during the entire process, would there be any difference of wieght?

[Ashley-Star*Child]

*wonders*

Say someone can astral project or have an OBE at will, if the body's wieght was recorded during the entire process, would there be any difference of wieght?

443936[/snapback]

That's what I'd like to know. Why don't they do studies on that? There wouldn't be a complete decrease of soul weight because a part of the soul has to remain in the body to stay alive, however, a certain amount of weight reduction may be noticeable.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Well, yes it is ludricous. No matter how many tax dollars went into proving the existence of a soul, and the evidence it provided, some peopel woul still obstinantly refuse to accept it. That's ludicrous.

Even if 21g was lost in everyone, that wouldnt prove that it was the soul. All it would prove is that people loose 21g when they die.

I don't go around 'hugging dying people', I have been faced with alot of death in my life, something most people don't have to face. And you can guess all you want, the only comeback you have is 'oh she's lying/fibbing' when I say something you can't accept. Grow up.

And you held each one of these people... you've actually held them in the air when they died, and you notice a change of 21g?

443933[/snapback]

Why the hell would you hold a dying person in the air? Death isn't exactly a light subject and shouldn't be talked about mockingly.

[Stellar]

Why the hell would you hold a dying person in the air? Death isn't exactly a light subject and shouldn't be talked about mockingly.

Ahh, so the dying person was on a bed, and you were holding the person? How do you know that the person got lighter and didnt just rest on the bed?

[aquatus1]

The soul, the life force, whatever one wants to call it....does it have weight?  That is the question being discussed here.  My question is how many tax dollars went into funding this ludicrous experiment.

443232[/snapback]

Well, yes it is ludricous. No matter how many tax dollars went into proving the existence of a soul, and the evidence it provided, some peopel woul still obstinantly refuse to accept it. That's ludicrous.

443909[/snapback]

Some would. But, if the experiment was conducted properly, and could be repeated, and followed all the rules of scientific methodology, it would have to be accepted as credible, if controversial, by the scientific community. Eventually, as the die-hard deniers died off, and a new generation grew with the idea of it in place, along with the preponderance of evidence that would have to be gathered, it would be integrated into popular knowledge.

In this case, unfortunately, the experiment was simply not up to par, and just couldn't pass muster. There just wasn't enough precision or definition.

[+joc]

If a person is in outer space and farts...does that person gain weight? Lose weight? Or does the weight stay the same because after all...the person is in outer space.

[seeking]

there is no weight in outer space, weight is determined by gravity, there is no gravity in outerspace

[+joc]

Very good Seeking!

Next intelligent question: If you were driving along in outer space and turned on the headlights would you, A. Speed up? B. Slow down? C. Remain at the same speed because...after all you are in outer space.

[aquatus1]

In keeping with the weight theme, what weighs more: a pound of feathers, or a pound of gold? (Yes, it is a trick question, and more trivia then funny)

[Stellar]

In keeping with the weight theme, what weighs more: a pound of feathers, or a pound of gold? (Yes, it is a trick question, and more trivia then funny)

Which would you rather be hit by?

[aquatus1]

Do I get to keep it after being hit?

[+joc]

Obviously a pound of gold weighs more than a pound of feathers because gold is heavier than feathers.....that being said a pound of poop weighs more than a pound of gold and a pound of chocolate weighs more than a pound of celery..............

[Stellar]

Do I get to keep it after being hit?

444077[/snapback]

If you survive.

Obviously a pound of gold weighs more than a pound of feathers because gold is heavier than feathers.....that being said a pound of poop weighs more than a pound of gold and a pound of chocolate weighs more than a pound of celery..............

Please put a or something in order to show people you're being sarcastic!

[aquatus1]

Obviously, of course...isn't it?

Gold is heavier then feathers...isn't it?

And a pound of gold is the same as a pound of feathers...isn't it?

What could the answer be?

Goodness, I'm sleepy! I think this thread has well and truly run its course.

[+joc]

Please put a    or something in order to show people you're being sarcastic!

Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that people with less than the 210 IQ level would be reading it.

[wrathofkahn]

Hello everyone!

I'm so happy so hear from everyone's responses and questions! This question has plagued me for quite sometime after studying mcdougall's work. Theory is inquiry (educated guess), which is all of what we discuss. But for one moment in our mind's, in every person's life, we can see or sense something greater than ourselves.

Deny it all you want, but we all have a "sixth sense." How can we have soul, how can we not have a soul? What a question! What does the panel say! lol

You are a really smart bunch. The theory of relativity is a unique interscope within the realm of travel and occupancy of space as matter. Anyways, that's very unique thoughts and really made me think more about something leaving our bodies during a human's passing.