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God's 14 bil. years of violence.


Nostrodumbass

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4 hours ago, davros of skaro said:
On 10/23/2017 at 9:29 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I have always felt that you didn't rule it out. :yes:  (well also, again, it takes me a bit to get the full gist of something, I hope you'll excuse my 'slowness' :o ) I do thank you for saying this. And I agree with you a lot on this. In the way, I see so many fall prey to quick 'stimulation' and think something else. :) 

Ever since I was a child I was interested in the paranormal, and strange tales. 

I just found it to be covered with tons of manure.

Awwww, shucks, I'm sorry about that. :o  I've always found it to be covered in pixie dust!  :D  :tu:  *shrugs* 

My point, in time, I have found many variations of the story tellers and such, and sometimes, the storyteller is really mystified, and the mystery continues......................... I like that. :yes:  :w00t:  (Though, time has also opened me up to eventual explanations to various sightings I have had, ((or someone else has had and told me)) like the double moon sighting.) 

I have yet to come close to (or maybe a bit close........... but that's about it.) to a similar and full experience and explanation to my zig zagged star sighting. *shrugs*  :D  But, I still find it to be a fun ride. :devil:  :innocent:  :D:tu: 

4 hours ago, davros of skaro said:
Quote

I'm sure, there are many stories, ( I have a lot in my work ) of none-believers who kicked their habits while still staying none-believers. :yes: 

Jesus gave them a freebie. 

winking.gif

I totally don't understand that answer, .......... but ok! 

giphy.gif

:D  :innocent:  :D  

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On ‎22‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 10:40 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I do not understand the comparison of science to religion. I feel, apples and oranges here. My thoughts on that, of course. Here's the thing, and bringing up the word truth. (And if those who know me, I'm a believer, unique in it, but a believer never the less.) Looking at religions and their beliefs and tenets and such, (including in my own) one cannot fully see these things as the full truth, if it hasn't been proven as the full objective proof. Science, I feel one can. 

Science and religion are very different. I suspect those who call science a religion are doing it because science undermines their beliefs. Creationists are a prime example.

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On ‎22‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 4:01 AM, Will Due said:

The amazimg spiritual realities of the Creator and the relationships we all have in living this life of never ending scientific and personal spiritual experiences. 

Such as?

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18 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

Such as?

The experiences you have. What else?

 

 

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Just now, Will Due said:

The experiences you have. What else?

What does theology have to do with my experiences? I thought you said theology has made amazing discoveries comparable to that of science.

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26 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

What does theology have to do with my experiences? I thought you said theology has made amazing discoveries comparable to that of science.

Science and religion are different approaches to the same thing. They both seek and endeavour to discover the truth.

However, science focuses on things while religion is centered on values. 

Both of these paths of discovery are experienced and coordinated philosophically. 

Philosophy, with science and religion, are then the three legs that support and stabilize the possibility potential of understanding reality.

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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The maximum understanding of all reality is not possible without the philosophical coordination of the discoveries of both science and religion. 

It's a three pronged approach. 

 

 

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Sometimes I feel that god did not create us but we created him.

From a Christian perspective I have never heard of remote tribes and peoples being discovered that already know Jesus. People had to sail by boats across the ocean and in many cases slaughter the natives and take their land for said natives to discover his glory.

There is something wrong with this.

When it comes to faith healing, the healers are normally only able to heal internal conditions. I have not come across one that can restore the body part of an amputee, for example. As long as it requires something your mind can accomplish on its own, god can do it, anything more than that and he can’t.

There is something wrong with this.

When it comes to eternal life, end of sorrows or the end of ‘this system’, it is always promised for the future, or said to be ‘at the door’. God cannot show us now that he is real by saving the human race. But after we die he can. These are statements and promises that carry no responsibility by the one pronouncing them. Conveniently! It is like saying you will die in the desert and your children will inherit the promised land.

There is something wrong with this.

When I use the things I have realised on this topic, and apply it to ancient Israel a worrying picture emerges. One, where a nation ruled by a religion was involved in endless strife. The religious leaders could control the people to a degree, but they were drawn after other gods from the surrounding nations. For the priests to maintain control, they had to create one Jehovah; the only true god. He had to be fear inspiring to keep them in control. They had to make promises of a promised land to keep hope amongst the people alive. I’m sure they had to embellish stories about their history, to 'make' Jehovah the god of their forefathers. They probably had to create some less than accurate historical accounts.

Ultimately the paradox of worshipping ‘the one true god’ and their constantly being killed by their neighbours, and having to fight bloody wars with an almighty god supposedly watching over them, was unsustainable. This god never took responsibility for any losses suffered, he was perfect and the people were bad (sounds familiar). Thus people tried to transform it into something else that was more acceptable, and sufficiently vague to cover all the bases. And the cycle continues. I’m not saying this process was completely deliberate, and could have been part of a natural reaction to lack of knowledge; as is the case with many of our spiritual experiences.

Nevertheless, one has to ask: How many lives have been wasted worshipping these ‘gods’? Spending their preciously short lives trying to please the unpleasable. The last words my dad ever spoke to me was: “Remember Jehovah”. I wonder how many soldiers died from injuries in the holy wars telling their families that.

There is something wrong with this.

It actually hurts me deeply to realise these things, and I do hope god and religion can be true, but looking at what is, what was, and what probably will be, the picture is grim at best. I cannot in good conscience maintain these mainstream views, and remain sane.

There is just too much wrong with this.

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58 minutes ago, Nostrodumbass said:

Sometimes I feel that god did not create us but we created him.

From a Christian perspective I have never heard of remote tribes and peoples being discovered that already know Jesus. People had to sail by boats across the ocean and in many cases slaughter the natives and take their land for said natives to discover his glory.

There is something wrong with this.

When it comes to faith healing, the healers are normally only able to heal internal conditions. I have not come across one that can restore the body part of an amputee, for example. As long as it requires something your mind can accomplish on its own, god can do it, anything more than that and he can’t.

There is something wrong with this.

When it comes to eternal life, end of sorrows or the end of ‘this system’, it is always promised for the future, or said to be ‘at the door’. God cannot show us now that he is real by saving the human race. But after we die he can. These are statements and promises that carry no responsibility by the one pronouncing them. Conveniently! It is like saying you will die in the desert and your children will inherit the promised land.

There is something wrong with this.

When I use the things I have realised on this topic, and apply it to ancient Israel a worrying picture emerges. One, where a nation ruled by a religion was involved in endless strife. The religious leaders could control the people to a degree, but they were drawn after other gods from the surrounding nations. For the priests to maintain control, they had to create one Jehovah; the only true god. He had to be fear inspiring to keep them in control. They had to make promises of a promised land to keep hope amongst the people alive. I’m sure they had to embellish stories about their history, to 'make' Jehovah the god of their forefathers. They probably had to create some less than accurate historical accounts.

Ultimately the paradox of worshipping ‘the one true god’ and their constantly being killed by their neighbours, and having to fight bloody wars with an almighty god supposedly watching over them, was unsustainable. This god never took responsibility for any losses suffered, he was perfect and the people were bad (sounds familiar). Thus people tried to transform it into something else that was more acceptable, and sufficiently vague to cover all the bases. And the cycle continues. I’m not saying this process was completely deliberate, and could have been part of a natural reaction to lack of knowledge; as is the case with many of our spiritual experiences.

Nevertheless, one has to ask: How many lives have been wasted worshipping these ‘gods’? Spending their preciously short lives trying to please the unpleasable. The last words my dad ever spoke to me was: “Remember Jehovah”. I wonder how many soldiers died from injuries in the holy wars telling their families that.

There is something wrong with this.

It actually hurts me deeply to realise these things, and I do hope god and religion can be true, but looking at what is, what was, and what probably will be, the picture is grim at best. I cannot in good conscience maintain these mainstream views, and remain sane.

There is just too much wrong with this.

I hope you give these two podcasts a listen either way it leads you. Keep in mind that the mind is powerful such as a river. You can harness it, or let it level the landscape. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Awwww, shucks, I'm sorry about that. :o  I've always found it to be covered in pixie dust!  :D  :tu:  *shrugs* 

Stinky pixie dust.

17 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

My point, in time, I have found many variations of the story tellers and such, and sometimes, the storyteller is really mystified, and the mystery continues......................... I like that. :yes:  :w00t: 

People wanting a mystery, and not a mundane answer can be a problem.

17 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

(Though, time has also opened me up to eventual explanations to various sightings I have had, ((or someone else has had and told me)) like the double moon sighting.) 

Double moon? One time I thought I saw a green moon glowing through the clouds. I thought it was strange then went on my business. Then I realized that the moon had not risen yet, and the green glow was gone.

17 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I have yet to come close to (or maybe a bit close........... but that's about it.) to a similar and full experience and explanation to my zig zagged star sighting. *shrugs*  :D  But, I still find it to be a fun ride. :devil:  :innocent:  :D:tu: 

Maybe it was an alien craft doing a diagnostic of it's inertial dampeners? ;)

17 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I totally don't understand that answer, .......... but ok! 

I was playing the apologist. Jesus is so cool that he heals without the faith....LOL!

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6 hours ago, Nostrodumbass said:

I cannot in good conscience maintain these mainstream views, and remain sane.

 

Then let all these mainstream views go.

 

"Be reminded that a wise tailor does not sew a piece of new and unshrunk cloth upon an old garment, lest, when it is wet, it shrink and produce a worse rent. Neither do men put new wine into old wine skins, lest the new wine burst the skins so that both the wine and the skins perish. The wise man puts the new wine into fresh wine skins. Therefore do my disciples show wisdom in that they do not bring too much of the old order over into the new teaching"

 

 

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8 hours ago, Will Due said:

Science and religion are different approaches to the same thing. They both seek and endeavour to discover the truth.

However, science focuses on things while religion is centered on values. 

Both of these paths of discovery are experienced and coordinated philosophically. 

Philosophy, with science and religion, are then the three legs that support and stabilize the possibility potential of understanding reality.

 

 

Wouldn't they differ in that one would be universal truths and the other personal truths?

jmccr8

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But aren't personal truths and universal truths the same?

Doesn't everything that's true eminate from the same source?

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Will Due said:

But aren't personal truths and universal truths the same?

Doesn't everything that's true eminate from the same source?

 

 

Hi Will,

A relationship with God is a personal experience and unique to each individual so the truths that an individual discovers my not be a universal truth. It will still be a truth to that individual but the experience of that truth will remain a personal experience. Universal truths are provable constants that can be observed by all individuals.

I am not contesting the validity of personal experience as it is a requirement of personal growth but can not be demonstrated as universal because of individual environment.

jmccr8

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5 hours ago, davros of skaro said:
23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Awwww, shucks, I'm sorry about that. :o  I've always found it to be covered in pixie dust!  :D  :tu:  *shrugs* 

Stinky pixie dust.

Is that you throwing a little tantrum there?? ;)   What's wrong in me seeing things differently? And that's what I am doing, all I'm doing. (well, in a sense) is seeing things like that, in a positive outlook. :D 

Or, wait a minute, is it really the smell? :o  :lol:  

5 hours ago, davros of skaro said:
Quote

My point, in time, I have found many variations of the story tellers and such, and sometimes, the storyteller is really mystified, and the mystery continues......................... I like that. :yes:  :w00t: 

People wanting a mystery, and not a mundane answer can be a problem.

A problem? To who? How? Could you please elaborate? Because, I don't see how. And when it comes to my describing my feelings on this, it's just me, describing my feelings on this. How can me wanting a continuing mystery be a problem? How can it be a problem to others? (if that's the gist) It's not like I go spreading my feelings of "NO! Don't tell me, I rather stay in the dark!!" 

I mean, you did realize, I'm just keeping this to myself, you know. Right? 

Then again, if that is the gist, if the mystery is solved, I hope you do realized I would like to be told the end result. You do realize that, right? 

My point is, while the mystery cannot be solved by anyone, unlike others who go stir crazy with wanting to know now, I'm good with it. But yeah, if you can answer it, I'm all ears. 

Is that it? 

5 hours ago, davros of skaro said:
Quote

(Though, time has also opened me up to eventual explanations to various sightings I have had, ((or someone else has had and told me)) like the double moon sighting.) 

Double moon? One time I thought I saw a green moon glowing through the clouds. I thought it was strange then went on my business. Then I realized that the moon had not risen yet, and the green glow was gone.

Well, that reminded me of one experience, (one I believe I have numerous times described on this board) of seeing a glowing orange object, hidden slightly in the tree tops, moving ever so slowly from East to West. In which, I thought that was the moon, until I noticed it was actually.............................. :o .................. moving. I believe, that was one of the experiences that I haven't heard a mundane reasoning for. I even told a brother that experience, and at that time, he brushed it off telling me I was crazy. Well, until some years later, he came to me to show him and explain in detail that experience again, ( he was sincere, very curious now, and intent in hearing it ) in which I did. Afterwards, he then told me his recent experience in something, (with a witness with him ) he saw in the sky, that surprised him (and witness ) 

*shrugs* 

But anyways, yeah, it was another family member who told me about seeing, (or what they thought was a moon) the moon one night, and then turning away to see another moon. Then turning back to first moon, and it was not there. I do believe, I was reading a thread on this board about dual moon sightings, and it seemed some posters explained the reason behind it, a mundane and scientific reasoning behind it. It was like, nice, a cool explanation. Ok, that bit of mystery is over. 

6 hours ago, davros of skaro said:
Quote

I have yet to come close to (or maybe a bit close........... but that's about it.) to a similar and full experience and explanation to my zig zagged star sighting. *shrugs*  :D  But, I still find it to be a fun ride. :devil:  :innocent:  :D:tu: 

Maybe it was an alien craft doing a diagnostic of it's inertial dampeners? ;)

Who knows!!! Maybe!!! Which ever! Hell, if it was indeed a experimental satellite at the time, (and failed to make a come back) cool, I'll go with that. But since I vividly remember it still, and really haven't come across an extreme similar experience told by someone else to tell me it's a race of far distant aliens, or an experimental satellite, it stays as an unexplained mystery. (Did ya guys like that?. If this was "Everything wrong with ..........in blah blah minutes, ..........someone would have yelled, 'Roll credits!!!' ;)  :tu:  :D  )

6 hours ago, davros of skaro said:
Quote

I totally don't understand that answer, .......... but ok! 

I was playing the apologist. Jesus is so cool that he heals without the faith....LOL!

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. :unsure:  :unsure2:      I still didn't get it. (which is me, Maybe I need to let it sink in...... for a few........ decades! ) 

tenor.gif

 

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4 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will,

A relationship with God is a personal experience and unique to each individual so the truths that an individual discovers my not be a universal truth. It will still be a truth to that individual but the experience of that truth will remain a personal experience. Universal truths are provable constants that can be observed by all individuals.

I am not contesting the validity of personal experience as it is a requirement of personal growth but can not be demonstrated as universal because of individual environment.

jmccr8

Hi jm, 

You are right, nonetheless the coordination of the two approaches to discovering the truth are both valid. Perhaps this fact only goes to highlight the duality of life. That two legs are better than one.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Will Due said:

But aren't personal truths and universal truths the same?

Uh................................. noooooooooo. 

I wouldn't think so. 

If I could use an example to best explain......... or slightly explain...............

It's like a lefty smack dab in the middle of righties. (Now, who has the truth to say what hand everyone would instinctively write with?)

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20 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Uh................................. noooooooooo. 

I wouldn't think so. 

If I could use an example to best explain......... or slightly explain...............

It's like a lefty smack dab in the middle of righties. (Now, who has the truth to say what hand everyone would instinctively write with?)

Don't forget Stubbly, we're talking about truth in regard to (your words) how "the truth is the truth." 

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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On 15/10/2017 at 7:28 PM, spartan max2 said:

The perceptions of non sentient objects being violent seems more like a human concept to me 

I dunno.  I recall a few quite violent earthquakes and volcanic eruptions (which, of course, would have once been attributed to a rather angry deity)

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1 minute ago, Will Due said:
20 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Uh................................. noooooooooo. 

I wouldn't think so. 

If I could use an example to best explain......... or slightly explain...............

It's like a lefty smack dab in the middle of righties. (Now, who has the truth to say what hand everyone would instinctively write with?)

Don't forget Stubbly, we're talking about truth in regard to (your words) how "the truth is the truth." 

Well, I hope you understood my subsequent response to that. ( I don't blame you for picking up on it, though. And I feel frustrated that I am having a hard time putting into words what I mean here. ) 

Maybe, I should go back to my usual thought process of examples, the falling tree in the woods, and no one is around bit, does it make a sound? If indeed it does make a sound, that's the truth I'm talking about. If by chance, there is the objective, scientific, and natural explanation of it making a sound, even if no one happens to be around to hear it, but it would make sense, that a sound will still be .................... heard. That's the kind of truth I'm talking about. Even without the presence of someone, it's still a universal truth, because it still happens. ( something that can be explained as to happening no matter what ) 

I'm a lefty. If I grew up around lefties, I would think everyone would be a lefty. Not until I was out in the world, school, and such, that the majority of people were righties. And that, from the perspective of some in the past ( and very little today :angry:  :no:  ) it was bad to be a lefty and you were forced to be a rightie. So, my truth of being a lefty and seeing the world that way, is subjective. Because objective type point of view, it's a world mostly of righties. 

I don't understand how you can say a personal truth, or subjective truth, as the same as universal truth. What about using the example of people's tastes and personal flavors. It's like saying everyone likes a certain food dish, (and more than likely, most do) but someone or a few hate the dish. Should the majority expect the few to like it? You can't force someone to 'enjoy' or 'like' a dish. It's not what their body wants them to do. So, someone who hates that dish, shouldn't think the dish is awful for everyone, when the majority  actually loves it. 

I really hope that explains my take on that more. *shrugs* 

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55 minutes ago, Will Due said:

But aren't personal truths and universal truths the same?

Doesn't everything that's true eminate from the same source?

No,  not at all

A personal truth is subjective.   A universal truth objective.  

(by the way, the idea that "a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife" is not a universal truth ;)  )

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If you're a leftie, its true that you write lefthanded.

If you're in possession of good fortune, depending on who you marry, it might be true that you should have remained single.

Everything that's true eminates from the same source.

The truth is the truth. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Will Due said:

If you're a leftie, its true that you write lefthanded.

Yes, I know. But, that wasn't my point. It's a lefty, expecting others to be lefties, because they are. 

Quote

If you're in possession of good fortune, depending on who you marry, it might be true that you should have remained single.

I don't think, one negates the other or vice versa. 

Quote

Everything that's true eminates from the same source.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!?!? Could you please elaborate further on that, please? 

Quote

The truth is the truth. 

And apparently, in this thread, can have more than one meaning. :huh:  

Sorry, Will, I don't think I can understand how you come to your conclusions. Not saying anything demeaning about it, just this based from my point of view, and I think my point of view, has been observant of various things. *shrugs* 

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2 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Yes, I know. But, that wasn't my point. It's a lefty, expecting others to be lefties, because they are. 

I don't think, one negates the other or vice versa. 

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!?!? Could you please elaborate further on that, please? 

And apparently, in this thread, can have more than one meaning. :huh:  

Sorry, Will, I don't think I can understand how you come to your conclusions. Not saying anything demeaning about it, just this based from my point of view, and I think my point of view, has been observant of various things. *shrugs* 

Then your point of view is true enough.

Until it progresses and evolves further towards a wider perspective of the discernment of truth.

So again, in human experience, that's how the truth will always remain the truth. Because human experience is progressive, and the understanding of the truth will grow as we continue to evolve personally.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Will Due said:

However, science focuses on things while religion is centered on values. 

Religion focuses on "God" not values.

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