God's 14 bil. years of violence.

[Will Due]

5 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

It is the New Testament that has been used for the past 2000 years, not the Urantia book, which has been around for less than a 100 years.

I don't understand what it is you're saying with that statement. Can you elaborate a little more?

 

 

[Rlyeh]

4 hours ago, Nostrodumbass said:

When thinking about the devil I used to end up with something similar to your reply. That he/it could be necessary for balance, a natural balance to creation. Something like: How can you have light without darkness? How can you have good without evil?

Isn't God evil enough without a devil?

[Tatetopa]

38 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Thank God reality is the opposite of entropy. Everything is balancing more and more. Becoming more stable and secure.

Will, you are coming at it from a different angle than the poster.  His original post indicated that even eating is violence.  That seems to be a bit extreme.

Everything balancing more and more and becoming more stable is entropy.  I am not commenting on the spiritual, just energy and matter.

[Will Due]

5 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Will, you are coming at it from a different angle than the poster.  His original post indicated that even eating is violence.  That seems to be a bit extreme.

Everything balancing more and more and becoming more stable is entropy.  I am not commenting on the spiritual, just energy and matter.

The second definition of "entropy" is:

lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder.

I was commenting about how this isn't what's true about the evolution of the universe and life in general. Everything is becoming naturally more and more stable. Except those things that are an entropic result of an errant free will choice.

________________________

 

Here's the definition of the word "violence." As this word is used by the original poster and applied to the topic of this thread, that violence is what made the world and universe. This is a misplaced idea, by definition, in my opinion. 

As you can see below, violence is generally described as an action between people, not between material objects like atoms and molecules nor asteroids and planets.

It's my suggestion that the universe is a friendly place, not a violent place.

It's interesting that the word "vehement" is the word that "violent" is associated with from the original Latin.

Nature cannot be, and never is "vehement."

 

vi·o·lence

ˈvī(ə)ləns/

noun

1. behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

   synonyms:

   brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishnessMore

   • strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.

     "the violence of her own feelings"

     synonyms:

     intensity, severity, strength, force, vehemence, power, potency, fervency, ferocity, fury, fire "the violence of his passion"

   • LAW

     the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force.

      

     Middle English: via Old French from Latin violentia, from violent- ‘vehement, violent’ 

      

      

      

[spartan max2]

The perceptions of non sentient objects being violent seems more like a human concept to me 

[Opus Magnus]

Well, if consciousness is similar to an electrical storm, than I'm not surprised if storms may appear violent.

Paul says in the NT, "The Greeks have wisdom, but salvation comes from the Jews."

A lot of mythologies start out with violent power struggles because some god is offensive to another. Like the vanity and depressing disapointment at Eden. The struggle goes on.

Interresting about the Greek character Narcisus. When Persephone was abducted by Hades to be his bride, she was straying to the narcisus flower that he turned into for admiring his own beauty. Also. Hades has aquired the wine vine from Dionysus, as the price to release his mother from his kingdom.

Both these characters sort of cross Jesus in story, and prophecy. But, the moral of the story is that Christ conquers death, or Hades.

[GoldenWolf]

6 hours ago, Will Due said:

I don't understand what it is you're saying with that statement. Can you elaborate a little more?

 

 

The Urantia book is not the bible.

[Aquila King]

22 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

The Urantia book is not the bible.

Might as well be in his eyes.

[Aquila King]

The thing I feel necessary to note here is the emphasis on external conflict (violence), while it neglects to really address the concept of internal conflict.

If we see all conflict (violence) in the universe as being perpetrated by God against other entities, then yes, it's easy to deem such a God as either horrendously evil or non-existent. But if we instead see things from the perspective of internal conflict, then we begin to gain a better picture. We all have some form of internal struggles, battles against ourselves if you will. So if you view 'God' in a similar light that most eastern philosophies paint God as (aka the universe is God, all is one, we are all one consciousness, etc.), Then this would mean that all of the conflict we see in the universe would essentially be a mere reflection of the internal conflict that occurs in the mind of 'God'. If the universe is essentially a 'God dream' that we just so happen to be a part of, then all of the conflict we see is merely the manifestation of some great internal conflict that this God is experiencing.

Why is this any different? Because an internal conflict is not 'perpetrated' per say. While there are undoubtedly things that can be done to prevent it, and to 'win' the battle, at the same time most inner turmoil is won by learning to accept and embrace the dark aspects of ourselves that we go to war with, rather then to push it away and defeat it. You cannot force yourself to not think about something, or to not feel something. Every psychologist out there will tell you, the path to overcoming any internal conflict is to learn to allow yourself to think and feel whatever it is you're thinking or feeling, rather then try to stamp out or repress it. One must learn acceptance. And then through this acceptance, the parts of you that one wishes to eliminate or control, begin to diminish in power and control over you. In other words, the war is only one when we stop fighting it. 

The key difference in external and internal conflict, is in how one goes about defeating the enemy. With external conflict, the only way to win is to fight. With internal conflict, the only way to win is to not fight. Therefore, if the conflict we see all around us in the universe is merely a reflection of some sort of God's internal conflict (and we happen to be very small aspects of this 'God' called consciousness), then perhaps when we begin to accept the negative aspects of our universe (and ourselves) and our own mortality will we finally stop the violence and be at peace.

[Will Due]

1 hour ago, Aquila King said:

The thing I feel necessary to note here is the emphasis on external conflict (violence), while it neglects to really address the concept of internal conflict.

If we see all conflict (violence) in the universe as being perpetrated by God against other entities, then yes, it's easy to deem such a God as either horrendously evil or non-existent. But if we instead see things from the perspective of internal conflict, then we begin to gain a better picture. We all have some form of internal struggles, battles against ourselves if you will. So if you view 'God' in a similar light that most eastern philosophies paint God as (aka the universe is God, all is one, we are all one consciousness, etc.), Then this would mean that all of the conflict we see in the universe would essentially be a mere reflection of the internal conflict that occurs in the mind of 'God'. If the universe is essentially a 'God dream' that we just so happen to be a part of, then all of the conflict we see is merely the manifestation of some great internal conflict that this God is experiencing.

Why is this any different? Because an internal conflict is not 'perpetrated' per say. While there are undoubtedly things that can be done to prevent it, and to 'win' the battle, at the same time most inner turmoil is won by learning to accept and embrace the dark aspects of ourselves that we go to war with, rather then to push it away and defeat it. You cannot force yourself to not think about something, or to not feel something. Every psychologist out there will tell you, the path to overcoming any internal conflict is to learn to allow yourself to think and feel whatever it is you're thinking or feeling, rather then try to stamp out or repress it. One must learn acceptance. And then through this acceptance, the parts of you that one wishes to eliminate or control, begin to diminish in power and control over you. In other words, the war is only one when we stop fighting it. 

The key difference in external and internal conflict, is in how one goes about defeating the enemy. With external conflict, the only way to win is to fight. With internal conflict, the only way to win is to not fight. Therefore, if the conflict we see all around us in the universe is merely a reflection of some sort of God's internal conflict (and we happen to be very small aspects of this 'God' called consciousness), then perhaps when we begin to accept the negative aspects of our universe (and ourselves) and our own mortality will we finally stop the violence and be at peace.

In ancient times we had priests, shamans, seers, and gurus to explain things to us so they might influence and control our minds.

Today we have something much worse.

Today we have psychologists.

 

 

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, Will Due said:

In ancient times we had priests, shamans, seers, and gurus to explain things to us so they might influence and control our minds.

Today we have something much worse.

Today we have psychologists.

 

 

Well I have never consulted a psychologist myself and know many others that haven't either. I would challenge that all ancient people consulted priest,, shamen, seers or gurus as there have always been people who thought for themselves.

 

jmccr8

Edited October 16, 2017 by jmccr8
Phone think I don't know that it's trying to reword comments

[Will Due]

3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Well I have never consulted a psychologist myself and know many others that haven't either. I would challenge that all ancient people consulted priest,, shamen, seers or gurus as there have always been people who thought for themselves.

 

jmccr8

And thank God that he's there within each of us, even in ancient times, supporting us in thinking that we ought to think for ourselves. Actually, that we must think for ourselves.

But today like in ancient times, there are people who occupy one office of authority or another who make a living out of telling some if not all they meet, that they should heed what they are told by psychologists, like they were told in ancient times by priests, to do as instructed.

It's a new twist these days on an ancient occupation.

 

 

[Aquila King]

3 hours ago, Will Due said:

In ancient times we had priests, shamans, seers, and gurus to explain things to us so they might influence and control our minds.

Today we have something much worse.

Today we have psychologists.

While I don't necessarily defend some of the claims made by psychologists, the practice of psychology is incredibly beneficial to people's mental health and well-being. Going against psychology is like going against modern medicine. You can be against certain beliefs and practices within modern medicine, but to discredit it as a whole is incredibly ridiculous. The same thing goes for psychology.

Not to mention, it is typically those who need it most that end up opposing it.

[Nostrodumbass]

15 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Your definition of violence is all inclusive of every energy exchange.  It  goes beyond good, evil and free will, is that what you meant? If so, the only solution to violence by your definition  is the balance of all energy;  entropy.  No energy moves, all is balanced at the lowest state.  It is nothingness, no light, no warmth, no life, no god, no thought, no awareness, no being.  

Yes. I think what I'm trying to do is understand why, if there is a God, he seems subject to the laws of the universe when creating. His power seems also to be limited by its influence on free will (like the violence in the OT).

He cannot create an ideal state(with entropy balanced by his power) instantly. There needs to be great energy exchanges to bring about the life on earth. Just like it took violence for his people to take the promised land. Just like it takes violence to maintain his church, even the death of his son. Either he does not exist and the universe will revert to its pre-"big bang" state eventually. Or he does exist and I just don't understand his power and ways correctly. 

[Nostrodumbass]

8 hours ago, Aquila King said:

The thing I feel necessary to note here is the emphasis on external conflict (violence), while it neglects to really address the concept of internal conflict.

If we see all conflict (violence) in the universe as being perpetrated by God against other entities, then yes, it's easy to deem such a God as either horrendously evil or non-existent. But if we instead see things from the perspective of internal conflict, then we begin to gain a better picture. We all have some form of internal struggles, battles against ourselves if you will. So if you view 'God' in a similar light that most eastern philosophies paint God as (aka the universe is God, all is one, we are all one consciousness, etc.), Then this would mean that all of the conflict we see in the universe would essentially be a mere reflection of the internal conflict that occurs in the mind of 'God'. If the universe is essentially a 'God dream' that we just so happen to be a part of, then all of the conflict we see is merely the manifestation of some great internal conflict that this God is experiencing.

Why is this any different? Because an internal conflict is not 'perpetrated' per say. While there are undoubtedly things that can be done to prevent it, and to 'win' the battle, at the same time most inner turmoil is won by learning to accept and embrace the dark aspects of ourselves that we go to war with, rather then to push it away and defeat it. You cannot force yourself to not think about something, or to not feel something. Every psychologist out there will tell you, the path to overcoming any internal conflict is to learn to allow yourself to think and feel whatever it is you're thinking or feeling, rather then try to stamp out or repress it. One must learn acceptance. And then through this acceptance, the parts of you that one wishes to eliminate or control, begin to diminish in power and control over you. In other words, the war is only one when we stop fighting it. 

The key difference in external and internal conflict, is in how one goes about defeating the enemy. With external conflict, the only way to win is to fight. With internal conflict, the only way to win is to not fight. Therefore, if the conflict we see all around us in the universe is merely a reflection of some sort of God's internal conflict (and we happen to be very small aspects of this 'God' called consciousness), then perhaps when we begin to accept the negative aspects of our universe (and ourselves) and our own mortality will we finally stop the violence and be at peace.

I realize that my concept of God and good is what is causing me issues. The fact that he used billions of years of cosmic events to create, that he could not peacefully bring the Israelite's into the promised land etc. threw a spanner in the works. Whether he is a christian god or not is an even bigger challenge to comprehend, but necessary, that is if he even exists.

[Nostrodumbass]

15 hours ago, Will Due said:

The second definition of "entropy" is:

lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder.

I was commenting about how this isn't what's true about the evolution of the universe and life in general. Everything is becoming naturally more and more stable. Except those things that are an entropic result of an errant free will choice.

________________________

 

Here's the definition of the word "violence." As this word is used by the original poster and applied to the topic of this thread, that violence is what made the world and universe. This is a misplaced idea, by definition, in my opinion. 

As you can see below, violence is generally described as an action between people, not between material objects like atoms and molecules nor asteroids and planets.

It's my suggestion that the universe is a friendly place, not a violent place.

It's interesting that the word "vehement" is the word that "violent" is associated with from the original Latin.

Nature cannot be, and never is "vehement."

 

vi·o·lence

ˈvī(ə)ləns/

noun

1. behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

   synonyms:

   brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishnessMore

   • strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.

     "the violence of her own feelings"

     synonyms:

     intensity, severity, strength, force, vehemence, power, potency, fervency, ferocity, fury, fire "the violence of his passion"

   • LAW

     the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force.

      

     Middle English: via Old French from Latin violentia, from violent- ‘vehement, violent’ 

      

      

      

My use of the word "violence" was deliberate. As a whole gods creation has resulted in a sad state up to now, thus i believe it qualifies as a violent act. 

I remember when I was deeply depressed wishing that god had never decided to make me. That I would have been better off in the state before my birth, and I think many people feel that way when bad things happen. So yes, his creation for me was an act of violence. I pray that it changes soon.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Nostrodumbass

[Aquila King]

2 hours ago, Nostrodumbass said:

I realize that my concept of God and good is what is causing me issues. The fact that he used billions of years of cosmic events to create, that he could not peacefully bring the Israelite's into the promised land etc. threw a spanner in the works. Whether he is a christian god or not is an even bigger challenge to comprehend, but necessary, that is if he even exists.

Again, it all depends on one's definition of 'God'. If your definition of God is essentially the Abrahamic God, or at the very least an infinite creator God, then yes, it's fully understandable why you would have these issues. Such a God is undoubtedly in direct contradiction to the very universe we liv in, just as you've described.

However if we view God as merely the 'source' of everything, or as a sort of universal consciousness if you will, you begin to then lift the unnecessary requirements of such a God creating a universe without violence or suffering. A 'source' or 'universal consciousness' has no necessary obligations to create a universe without violence. An infinite creator deity does.

[Truthseeker007]

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 8:41 AM, Nostrodumbass said:

Approximately 14 billion years ago what we know started with a big bang, and so our reality was born in violence. This violence continues even until now, with celestial objects smashing into each other, exploding, imploding and dispersing. Our universe is shaped with/by violence.

 

Then on some of the relatively stable planets the wonder of life emerges from the violence to bring peace more violence into existence. Small one cell organisms break down materials for sustenance. Multi cell organisms “eat” other living organisms to survive. Complex creatures emerge that destroy plants in violence to survive. Large creatures emerge that eat other creatures, and all this happens through violence.

 

Nature is a cycle of violence from the start.

 

Then God creates man, and for the first time we by our consciousness can experience the violence in all its glory and all the physical and emotional pain that goes with it. We are so blessed that we can for the first time appreciate death and its implications for the first time. This gives rise to religions that try to make sense of the violence and resulting death and they bring peace more violence. How many millions of people have suffered due to religion and faith? Even Jesus brought violence by the confusion left in his wake. Looking at the book of Revelation and other prophetic texts there seems to be even more violence in store for us before anything gets better.

 

What about the future? Scientifically there is no way the universe can exist without the cycle of violence as mentioned at the start. Religiously, even paradise can only exist if God controls everything under threat of violence (threat of eternal death, hell etc.). In my opinion free will and peace (nonviolence) are incompatible.

 

My point is that the world, whether it is 6000 or billions of years old, whether God exists and created it or it started naturally, has only known violence. My main questions are: If God exists; can he bring lasting, eternal peace while maintaining free will? Can we believe and trust in God despite all this violence?

 

I think this may be part of the 3rd dimensional experience. Living on this planet Earth in the 3rd dimension is a unique learning experience for the soul. I think this what you call violence has something to do with what are called the Archons. They seem to feed off of the energy of pain and death just as we as humans would feed off of a cow. So above so below. As we are feeding off of something so is something feeding off of us. It seems the 3rd dimension is very parasitic in nature. We are all here to learn something though and add experience to our soul. Indeed this world is not very easy to live on and in. That is just my take on that. Now the whole God and religion is a whole other rabbit hole to dive into. I guess to put it in short. Religion is a program which can be called a mind control program in which humans follow. There are thousands of religions a human can pick out of. I myself don't follow a religion for I have grown out of that by expanding my knowledge and awareness. As for God I would say God is different to each individual so I guess I would say God is Consciousness and or was the beginning of Consciousness. We are all part of that Consciousness that can be termed God.I don't believe God is something that is supposed to be worshipped but I do believe God may be the whole idea or feeling of love. I guess in short God is whatever you believe it to be and there is an infinite amount of ideas of what God is.

[Rlyeh]

47 minutes ago, Truthseeker007 said:

I think this may be part of the 3rd dimensional experience. Living on this planet Earth in the 3rd dimension is a unique learning experience for the soul.

As compared to what?

 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

On 10/15/2017 at 1:41 AM, Nostrodumbass said:

Approximately 14 billion years ago what we know started with a big bang, and so our reality was born in violence. This violence continues even until now, with celestial objects smashing into each other, exploding, imploding and dispersing. Our universe is shaped with/by violence.

 

Then on some of the relatively stable planets the wonder of life emerges from the violence to bring peace more violence into existence. Small one cell organisms break down materials for sustenance. Multi cell organisms “eat” other living organisms to survive. Complex creatures emerge that destroy plants in violence to survive. Large creatures emerge that eat other creatures, and all this happens through violence.

 

Nature is a cycle of violence from the start.

 

Then God creates man, and for the first time we by our consciousness can experience the violence in all its glory and all the physical and emotional pain that goes with it. We are so blessed that we can for the first time appreciate death and its implications for the first time. This gives rise to religions that try to make sense of the violence and resulting death and they bring peace more violence. How many millions of people have suffered due to religion and faith? Even Jesus brought violence by the confusion left in his wake. Looking at the book of Revelation and other prophetic texts there seems to be even more violence in store for us before anything gets better.

 

What about the future? Scientifically there is no way the universe can exist without the cycle of violence as mentioned at the start. Religiously, even paradise can only exist if God controls everything under threat of violence (threat of eternal death, hell etc.). In my opinion free will and peace (nonviolence) are incompatible.

 

My point is that the world, whether it is 6000 or billions of years old, whether God exists and created it or it started naturally, has only known violence. My main questions are: If God exists; can he bring lasting, eternal peace while maintaining free will? Can we believe and trust in God despite all this violence?

 

I have been reading the varying posts here, and have my thoughts on this. I thought, I go from the OP's original post. I can see, personally, the  point of chaos, ( in which I see the damage done by none human means, in other words what one thinks of violence. ) as being always there. Granted, this chaos in certain areas, causes birth to things. As a mother usually goes through great bodily pain to give birth. But, it's there, and I wonder at what is destroyed when chaos occurs to create something new. (If you know Star Trek, think of the Genesis device.) 

Then there is the chaotic situations that just happens and causes just damage. Earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, and so forth. That happens, and when there are humanity and societies in the area, there is pain, death, violence, tragedy. If there is an outlook of an all caring higher power, it would be thought that these things wouldn't happen and people are spared and saved. Sorry Will, but I read this from you: 

On 10/15/2017 at 2:15 AM, Will Due said:

There will be no violence when "we believe and trust in God despite all this violence."

It's up to you.

and I think   Does trusting God keep the earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, and other such chaos away? This would be a question, I would be very interested in hearing the answer.  

So, what is the point of the thread? Do we believe in a higher power, despite of the chaos that has been done, and all the horror that humanity has to suffer from it, and mostly so when they are innocent and should not deserve it? 

[Truthseeker007]

3 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

As compared to what?

 

Compared to the many other dimensions such as the 4th,5th and 6th dimensions.

[Nostrodumbass]

4 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I have been reading the varying posts here, and have my thoughts on this. I thought, I go from the OP's original post. I can see, personally, the  point of chaos, ( in which I see the damage done by none human means, in other words what one thinks of violence. ) as being always there. Granted, this chaos in certain areas, causes birth to things. As a mother usually goes through great bodily pain to give birth. But, it's there, and I wonder at what is destroyed when chaos occurs to create something new. (If you know Star Trek, think of the Genesis device.) 

Then there is the chaotic situations that just happens and causes just damage. Earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, and so forth. That happens, and when there are humanity and societies in the area, there is pain, death, violence, tragedy. If there is an outlook of an all caring higher power, it would be thought that these things wouldn't happen and people are spared and saved. Sorry Will, but I read this from you: 

and I think   Does trusting God keep the earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, and other such chaos away? This would be a question, I would be very interested in hearing the answer.  

So, what is the point of the thread? Do we believe in a higher power, despite of the chaos that has been done, and all the horror that humanity has to suffer from it, and mostly so when they are innocent and should not deserve it? 

I think its important to ask the difficult questions, without them I fear we are at the mercy of lies, myths, imaginations and organizations that desire control. Just believing seems like an "easy out".

[Nostrodumbass]

8 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Again, it all depends on one's definition of 'God'. If your definition of God is essentially the Abrahamic God, or at the very least an infinite creator God, then yes, it's fully understandable why you would have these issues. Such a God is undoubtedly in direct contradiction to the very universe we liv in, just as you've described.

However if we view God as merely the 'source' of everything, or as a sort of universal consciousness if you will, you begin to then lift the unnecessary requirements of such a God creating a universe without violence or suffering. A 'source' or 'universal consciousness' has no necessary obligations to create a universe without violence. An infinite creator deity does.

I agree that the definition is important, and I believe I'm looking for one that is compatable with what is experienced. Not a definition that ive been taught by my parents or pastor or tradition etc. The false sense of security from "just believing" is something that causes fear to linger in the background of your life, waiting for tragedies or your deathbed to show itself, leaving one ultimately empty and unfulfilled. Some people even ride this beast with pride and hypocrisy. Sad.

[Guyver]

17 hours ago, Will Due said:

And thank God that he's there within each of us,

 

How can this be known?  Or is it something one must just accept on faith?

[Guyver]

PS.  This is a very interesting thread, IMHO....with many different perspectives and excellent responses.