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abhijit_b

Is Göbekli Tepe the proof of Older Sphinx?

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abhijit_b

I am no historian or archeologist. But the mysteries of history always intrigue me as history is partly fiction and partly science. None can be sure of the truth until and unless there is time machine.

Off late,  have been observing lots of traction in the so called fringe side around Gobekli Tepe and Sphinx. One youtube video where Hawass looks like to be an idiot in front of Hancock:

 

Similarly, in another video (it's quite a long and extensive debate), mainstream science writer Michael Shermer was almost speechless

 

Now the question is: Does the discovery of Gobekli Tepe proofs that human civilization in terms of megalithic construction ability is much older than we thought? If yes, then does it mean that the Great Sphinx is really older than we thought, specially supporting Robert Schoch's water erosion theory (Pointing to this independent research as the reference)?

 

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Hanslune

Welcome abhijit_b

 

Yes kinda, GT shows that people were carving stone and they were not really megalithic, which usually means using large unshaped stones or stones left in a rough shape (stonehenge, etc). this is kinda old news as the 'T' pillars at GT were found in 1995, so over 20+ years before.

If you take into account the excavation at Nevali Cori the date for when we knew people were carving stone well before the AE is pushed back to 1983 or 1984 (I forget) when  GT type 'T' pillars were found at this site.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevalı_Çori

 

no and no

Edited by Hanslune
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Sir Smoke aLot

As far as i know the Great Sphinx was never dated with certanity which translates into the fact that we actually do not know when it was built at all. How is such object build time determined? Do we at least have good guess of let's say around thousand years or so?

And how is dating done? That interested me always, by information revealed in ancient writings or in some other way?

[edit] while Mr.Hawass surely is respected in his field i always had impression that he simply doesn't want to hear what he doesn't like. I mean, here in first video he say that '' It ( GT if i got it right ) has nothing to do with anything ''. 

But, GT exists. What he imply is that it doesn't exist and is fake or whatever :unsure:

'' I do not believe in radar '' by Mr. Hawass.

Edited by Sir Smoke aLot
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abhijit_b
18 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Welcome abhijit_b

 

Yes kinda, GT shows that people were carving stone and they were not really megalithic, which usually means using large unshaped stones or stones left in a rough shape (stonehenge, etc). this is kinda old news as the 'T' pillars at GT were found in 1995, so over 20+ years before.

If you take into account the excavation at Nevali Cori the date for when we knew people were carving stone well before the AE is pushed back to 1983 or 1984 (I forget) when  GT type 'T' pillars were found at this site.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevalı_Çori

 

no and no

Thanks Hanslune.

Even though the sit ewas discovered in 1995, it took decades to come up with the actual plan of the site and other details.

Some of the T-pillars in the excavated sites are 20 feet high and weigh 10-20 tons. There is an rock under query weighs 50 tons. May not be as big as stonehenge, but still a megalith. Also the total area it covers in muti-fold bigger than stonehnge.

These shows capabilities of human being during that age and may not be an isolated case (Nevali Cori almost co-locates Gobekli Tepe). 

And one of the argument of why Sphinx can't be 10,000 years ols was exactly it.

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abhijit_b
14 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

As far as i know the Great Sphinx was never dated with certanity which translates into the fact that we actually do not know when it was built at all. How is such object build time determined? Do we at least have good guess of let's say around thousand years or so?

But historians never believed this to be an open question. Sphinx's face is believed to be of Khafre's and also the the Gize site layout has implication to the same. Even though these are all assumptions, these are considered as hard evidences. But, the rainfall erosion theory is discarded and contested the same with weird sand erosion. While rain erosion fits into as a known natural phenomenon, the sand erosion or wet-sand is a hypothesis.

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Hanslune
9 minutes ago, abhijit_b said:

And one of the argument of why Sphinx can't be 10,000 years ols was exactly it.

Howdy Abhijit_b

No the pillars were know of long before GT was discovered. I don't recall when the C-14 dates were published for NC. Nevertheless the idea/fact that people were carving stone well before the recent day. It may not have noted by the alternative and fringe world perhaps.

I see no connection implied or direct between the Sphinx and NC or GT. Those existed many thousands of years before it (AFAWK)

As to the quote above, I presume you are not a native English speaker, I'm sorry but I don't quite understand what you are stating above?

 

Thanks

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Sir Wearer of Hats
5 hours ago, abhijit_b said:

I am no historian or archeologist. But the mysteries of history always intrigue me as history is partly fiction and partly science. None can be sure of the truth until and unless there is time machine.

Off late,  have been observing lots of traction in the so called fringe side around Gobekli Tepe and Sphinx. One youtube video where Hawass looks like to be an idiot in front of Hancock:

 

Similarly, in another video (it's quite a long and extensive debate), mainstream science writer Michael Shermer was almost speechless

 

Now the question is: Does the discovery of Gobekli Tepe proofs that human civilization in terms of megalithic construction ability is much older than we thought? If yes, then does it mean that the Great Sphinx is really older than we thought, specially supporting Robert Schoch's water erosion theory (Pointing to this independent research as the reference)?

 

It does prove that megalithic cultures are older then thought of, yes. 

Does it prove water erosion theory? No. 

All it does is say that in Turkey there was a culture using stones to build a complex, no connection to Egypt, or Babylon or Albion, just Turkey.

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kmt_sesh

I am in agreement with Mr. Hats, so I doff my hat to him. Or, I would were I wearing one, which I am not. This will have to do:

doffing+hat.gif

Göbekli Tepe has definitely established the earlier presence of stoneworking in prehistoric societies, so that much is true. But that's been understood for many years now. Does this in any way bring an association between Tepe and the Great Sphinx of Giza? Of course not. We're not even certain who the people were who erected Tepe over the course of so many generations, but there's no evident connection with Egypt, and no evidence to posit the connection.

But if we can agree that Göbekli Tepe is so very ancient and does prove that prehistoric people were working stone on a large scale, is this enough to posit that the Sphinx itself is older than thought?

No, of course not.

Practically all arguments in favor of an older Sphinx have been brought to us by fringe and alternative writers, and their hypotheses are not considered valid. The closest it came was Robert Schoch, who is a legitimate geologist, but his own theory has never been accepted in the academic world.

The most important investigative agency at Giza is the Giza Plateau Mapping project. Headed by Mark Lehner, they've conducted critical research and analyses that have given us a more complete picture of the Plateau. Their website is packed with information (link). The GPMP has already established that the Sphinx is an integral part of Khafre's pyramid complex (G2)—it was commissioned by Khafre, was carved by that king's workforce, and was one of the last features of that pyramid complex to be prepared.

Hawass is not the most polished of speakers. Hancock, one must admit, is better and more polished in a public forum. But that's superficial stuff. Hancock is not an historian and has not contributed to the academic knowledge base. He is not taken seriously by professional historians. The obvious fact is, although Hawass is not my choice as the most learned Egyptologist one might consult, he has forgotten more about hsitory than Hanccok will ever learn.

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Sir Wearer of Hats

FWIW Hancock isnt even my “go to woo guy”, I much prefer David Hatcher Childress’ writing style (there’s a sort of adventurism to it that peeks behind the mundane world as well as pokes mysteries with a big stick, Hancock is more academic and a touch preachy at times), I much prefer a story even if it’s “I got the squirts from the local food so had to crash at my mate Georgio’s place for two weeks” (which happened in Childress’ book on mysteries of The Mediterranean). 

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jaylemurph
6 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

FWIW Hancock isnt even my “go to woo guy”, I much prefer David Hatcher Childress’ writing style (there’s a sort of adventurism to it that peeks behind the mundane world as well as pokes mysteries with a big stick, Hancock is more academic and a touch preachy at times), I much prefer a story even if it’s “I got the squirts from the local food so had to crash at my mate Georgio’s place for two weeks” (which happened in Childress’ book on mysteries of The Mediterranean). 

What's wrong with preachy?!

--Jaylemurph

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Windowpane
8 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

The obvious fact is, although Hawass is not my choice as the most learned Egyptologist one might consult, he has forgotten more about hsitory than Hanccok will ever learn.

Well: I'm sure that's true ...

But, occasionally, he lets himself down when it emerges that he hasn't always checked his facts properly ...  

And one of the most worrying aspects of  this debate was that Hawass - unless, as an Arabic speaker, he had some problem understanding a Turkish name pronounced by someone with an American accent -  gave the impression that he didn't appear to have actually heard of Göbekli Tepe, and didn't seem to know what people were talking about.  If you're a world famous archaeologist, you should surely also be keeping abreast of at least the most prominent archaeological developments in parts of the world other than your own specialist area: especially something of the significance of Göbekli Tepe.

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Harte
On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 11:44 AM, abhijit_b said:

But historians never believed this to be an open question. Sphinx's face is believed to be of Khafre's and also the the Gize site layout has implication to the same. Even though these are all assumptions, these are considered as hard evidences. But, the rainfall erosion theory is discarded and contested the same with weird sand erosion. While rain erosion fits into as a known natural phenomenon, the sand erosion or wet-sand is a hypothesis.

There is no "rainfall erosion theory."

Robert Schoch, they guy with the theory you're mangling, based his age estimate entirely on subsurface weathering of the limestone bedrock floor of the sphinx enclosure, which is caused by exposure to the air and not affected at all by water.

His theory is that the front of the sphinx is thousands of years older than the back - all based on subsurface seismic studies involving sound waves generated by banging a steel plate with a hammer.

There are multiple reasons one can list to show that Schoch's investigation returned invalid data, not the least of which is that his own data show the sides of the enclosure are older than either the front or the rear - by his own interpretation.

There are many reasons to discard this theory.

But even if there weren't, what, exactly is the connection with Gobekli Tepe? That is, no one has asserted that the sphinx couldn't have been carved by people that ancient.

Only that the evidence available indicates it wasn't.

Harte

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Hanslune
10 minutes ago, Harte said:

There is no "rainfall erosion theory."

Robert Schoch, they guy with the theory you're mangling, based his age estimate entirely on subsurface weathering of the limestone bedrock floor of the sphinx enclosure, which is caused by exposure to the air and not affected at all by water.

His theory is that the front of the sphinx is thousands of years older than the back - all based on subsurface seismic studies involving sound waves generated by banging a steel plate with a hammer.

There are multiple reasons one can list to show that Schoch's investigation returned invalid data, not the least of which is that his own data show the sides of the enclosure are older than either the front or the rear - by his own interpretation.

There are many reasons to discard this theory.

But even if there weren't, what, exactly is the connection with Gobekli Tepe? That is, no one has asserted that the sphinx couldn't have been carved by people that ancient.

Only that the evidence available indicates it wasn't.

Harte

I don't know........in between the one fairly certain date and the fuzzy date for the Sphinx you could have some 350 or so generations - so it is possible that a descendant from a builder of GT COULD have worked on the Sphinx.

Wait

I just asked Rupert about that. He spat at me (spiritually) and said yes that is in fact the case. Groups of people were sloshing all over the ME and Asia Minor at that time.

Sloshing = HG wandering all over the place

 

Edited by Hanslune
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kmt_sesh
1 minute ago, Hanslune said:

I don't know........in between the one fairly certain date and the fuzzy date for the Sphinx you could have some 350 or so generations - so it is possible that a descendant from a builder of GT COULD have worked on the Sphinx.

Wait

I just asked Rupert about that. He spat at me (spiritually) and aid yes that is in fact the case. Groups of people were sloshing all over the ME and Asia minor at that time.

 

Riding that ol' Mediterranean mega-tsunami?

Oh, I shouldn't have said that.

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Jarocal
11 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Riding that ol' Mediterranean mega-tsunami?

Oh, I shouldn't have said that.

Surfing right over the mountains of Mauritania...:D

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kmt_sesh
2 hours ago, Jarocal said:

Surfing right over the mountains of Mauritania...:D

Oh, yes, you remember...

What a nightmare that one was.

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kmt_sesh

Well, this one died fast. And here I was hoping for a good, juicy Egypt-type debate. Foiled again!

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Jarocal
20 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Oh, yes, you remember...

What a nightmare that one was.

 Nightmare? I rather enjoyed that thread (with appropriate amounts of alcohol)...:D

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kmt_sesh
14 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

 Nightmare? I rather enjoyed that thread (with appropriate amounts of alcohol)...:D

Easy for you to say. I can't imbibe too much, so I had to suffer through every moment of it...cold-stone sober!

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Jarocal
8 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Easy for you to say. I can't imbibe too much, so I had to suffer through every moment of it...cold-stone sober!

Meh, if I had to stay sober I would probably do something actually productive like make Lost Civilizations, Platonic year, 12k bc Sphynx, and Bigfoot=Neanderthal videos to put on Youtube.:ph34r:

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Hanslune
14 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

Meh, if I had to stay sober I would probably do something actually productive like make Lost Civilizations, Platonic year, 12k bc Sphynx, and Bigfoot=Neanderthal videos to put on Youtube.:ph34r:

Do youtubes on the subject of 'naked aliens building pyramids and drinking beer' that will cover a lot of bases.

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kmt_sesh

 

7 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Do youtubes on the subject of 'naked aliens building pyramids and drinking beer' that will cover a lot of bases.

Oh, I'd watch that!

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kmt_sesh
36 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Easy for you to say. I can't imbibe too much, so I had to suffer through every moment of it...cold-stone sober!

LOL I think that's supposed to be "stone-cold." Am I not sober?

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Hanslune
9 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

 

Oh, I'd watch that!

To be followed next season 'naked aliens building pyramids and drinking beer...and cage fighting leading fringe proponents'

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kmt_sesh
28 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

To be followed next season 'naked aliens building pyramids and drinking beer...and cage fighting leading fringe proponents'

Cage fighting leading fringe proponents? I think I've seen that.

napoleon-dynamite-yes-gif-1.gif

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