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Mr. Argon

Shadow Archetype

15 posts in this topic

Carl Jung claimed that every human being has it's dark side. But what is more interesting is the proposition that when the human being is not aware of his dark attributes that the person is more prone to become more morally corrupt. In other words, people who have a self image of complete purity and see in themselves no evil side can actually become true monsters. They are only capable of seeing inperfections in others projecting their own unconsciouss undesirable attributes solely on others while at the same time seeing themselves flawless. What are your thoughts on this?

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11 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

Carl Jung claimed that every human being has it's dark side. But what is more interesting is the proposition that when the human being is not aware of his dark attributes that the person is more prone to become more morally corrupt. In other words, people who have a self image of complete purity and see in themselves no evil side can actually become true monsters. They are only capable of seeing inperfections in others projecting their own unconsciouss undesirable attributes solely on others while at the same time seeing themselves flawless. What are your thoughts on this?

I think you have to see the other side as well. Where you say that there are persons who see themself as pure and flawless and only see the inperfections of another person there are also persons who see themselfs as broken as nothing good in themselfs and see others as perfect, pure, flawless and try to live like that person.

Both very wrong offcourse.

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5 minutes ago, Blaid Drwg said:

I think you have to see the other side as well. Where you say that there are persons who see themself as pure and flawless and only see the inperfections of another person there are also persons who see themselfs as broken as nothing good in themselfs and see others as perfect, pure, flawless and try to live like that person.

Both very wrong offcourse.

Excellent point. Like two sides of a same coin. So the defense of the first case lies in ignoring his unwanted attributes and getting his or her inner strenghth through scapegoating of others. The defense of the second case is a "little me" syndrome and escaping from own identity by following examples which are not his true nature, and thus a loss of sense of self identity and a feeling of powerlesness. Interesting.

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3 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

Excellent point. Like two sides of a same coin. So the defense of the first case lies in ignoring his unwanted attributes and getting his or her inner strenghth through scapegoating of others. The defense of the second case is a "little me" syndrome and escaping from own identity by following examples which are not his true nature, and thus a loss of sense of self identity and a feeling of powerlesness. Interesting.

The problem in both cases is the first who see themself as perfect and flawless will point always to other persons or circumstances for their failiure and the second one will only blame himself while he might not have to blame himself (at least not fully blaim himself).

You see this a lot in proffesionel sports. The first group will state we lost due to the refferee or due to the anti game the oponent played instead of saying yep sorry I or we where not good enough or not focused enough today to win while the second group always will take the blame and say yep we have to look in the mirror and question ourself.

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5 minutes ago, Blaid Drwg said:

The problem in both cases is the first who see themself as perfect and flawless will point always to other persons or circumstances for their failiure and the second one will only blame himself while he might not have to blame himself (at least not fully blaim himself).

You see this a lot in proffesionel sports. The first group will state we lost due to the refferee or due to the anti game the oponent played instead of saying yep sorry I or we where not good enough or not focused enough today to win while the second group always will take the blame and say yep we have to look in the mirror and question ourself.

So the problem of "little me" types and "supermans" is basically the same. Lack of strength or courage to face inner dark side. Because I think that "little me" people are also in danger of becoming monsters. They do criticise themselves but deep inside they hate their idols. Because deep inside they know that what they see as superman is not a superman at all. But they need that sort of idealization to look up to (to gain motivation for improvement) since they were from some reason afraid to put their own qualites on a test, and basically assumed a passive/agressive stance.

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29 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

So the problem of "little me" types and "supermans" is basically the same. Lack of strength or courage to face inner dark side. Because I think that "little me" people are also in danger of becoming monsters. They do criticise themselves but deep inside they hate their idols. Because deep inside they know that what they see as superman is not a superman at all. But they need that sort of idealization to look up to (to gain motivation for improvement) since they were from some reason afraid to put their own qualites on a test, and basically assumed a passive/agressive stance.

Well it is a dangerous combination. The first group who think there perfect might need people who idolise them mostly those come from the second group. Stalkers for instance will mostly be persons from the second group.

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6 minutes ago, Blaid Drwg said:

Well it is a dangerous combination. The first group who think there perfect might need people who idolise them mostly those come from the second group. Stalkers for instance will mostly be persons from the second group.

It is indeed a dangerous combination. It's called a human history. Wilhelm Reich wrote in his book "Mass Psychology of Fascism" interesting insights of "little me" syndrome.

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1 minute ago, Mr. Argon said:

It is indeed a dangerous combination. It's called a human history. Wilhelm Reich wrote in his book "Mass Psychology of Fascism" interesting insights of "little me" syndrome.

Eventualy I dont get both parts of it. Not those who think there flawless and not those who think they can do any good. Just stand in life as youre own and what the rest thinks of it does not matter. Never understood the part where people expect to get credit for what they have done or people marking you for doing the wrong thing in there opinion. They are not you they never will be and for that they can never judge you.

 

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4 minutes ago, Blaid Drwg said:

Eventualy I dont get both parts of it. Not those who think there flawless and not those who think they can do any good. Just stand in life as youre own and what the rest thinks of it does not matter. Never understood the part where people expect to get credit for what they have done or people marking you for doing the wrong thing in there opinion. They are not you they never will be and for that they can never judge you.

I am afraid it is not that simple. Since we are beings with a consciousness and at the same time not able to penetrate into depths of our unconscuoisness we need support and affirmation. Now, support and affirmation will not be a merit of truth and objectivity, but since we are sentient beings it gives some encouragement. But what benefit of encouragement if a persons judgement is only a half-truth? None whatsoever. Who is capable of complete objectivity and logic? If we don't have a habit of lying to others we are nonetheless lying and decepting ourselves. Such is the nature of humanity. But I always have a hope that we are progressing to something higher than that. I hope that it is not just a hope ;)

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1 minute ago, Mr. Argon said:

I am afraid it is not that simple. Since we are beings with a consciousness and at the same time not able to penetrate into depths of our unconscuoisness we need support and affirmation. Now, support and affirmation will not be a merit of truth and objectivity, but since we are sentient beings it gives some encouragement. But what benefit of encouragement if a persons judgement is only a half-truth? None whatsoever. Who is capable of complete objectivity and logic? If we don't have a habit of lying to others we are nonetheless lying and decepting ourselves. Such is the nature of humanity. But I always have a hope that we are progressing to something higher than that. I hope that it is not just a hope ;)

Actualy it is that simple. Well for me it is :) 

What I mean is what I do has consequences for me either good or bad. So in that perspective I do not have the need for someone to tell me if it was good or bad, I know that myself. What I do is out off my movement probably also fed by what happend to me in the past. And eventualy everyone should act on there own and be guided on there own mind not by any other person because they do not know the background. This does not mean I dont listen to other people. The advise and critic is welcome offcourse and you can learn from it if it is well funded. But people just plainly stating it is bad what you did or good without any form of well funded reasoning is utter bullocks and dismissable.

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4 minutes ago, Blaid Drwg said:

Actualy it is that simple. Well for me it is :) 

What I mean is what I do has consequences for me either good or bad. So in that perspective I do not have the need for someone to tell me if it was good or bad, I know that myself. What I do is out off my movement probably also fed by what happend to me in the past. And eventualy everyone should act on there own and be guided on there own mind not by any other person because they do not know the background. This does not mean I dont listen to other people. The advise and critic is welcome offcourse and you can learn from it if it is well funded. But people just plainly stating it is bad what you did or good without any form of well funded reasoning is utter bullocks and dismissable.

I don't function like that. For example if I paint something or write something or do anything I crave for a positive feedback. Probably it is only a deep insecurity. Let's say i am not confident in my own abilities. I am also prone to strong self criticism. I think alot introspectivly and always put myself on a strain of doubting myself. So, we function differently in that respect. I am not trying to judge which way of functioning is more correct. Just making an observation.

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Just now, Mr. Argon said:

I don't function like that. For example if I paint something or write something or do anything I crave for a positive feedback. Probably it is only a deep insecurity. Let's say i am not confident in my own abilities. I am also prone to strong self criticism. I think alot introspectivly and always put myself on a strain of doubting myself. So, we function differently in that respect. I am not trying to judge which way of functioning is more correct. Just making an observation.

I write also and afterwards my wife is the first to read it. Her opinion besides mine is the only one that matters to me but than I ask of her to be brutaly honest. But it happend on more than one occasion that she finds it good and Im not happy with it well than I throw it away. Another example is I played football for 30 years as a semi pro. After the game you always talk a bit with fans or players off the opponent. I can tell you in lots of occasions it happens fans come to you and tell you that you played a good game while you did not or vice versa. I never valued those opinions except those of my coach offcourse because he and only he knew wich my task was on the pitch and thus can value my performance.

The problem these days in current society is that everyone has an opinion on everything, even when they dont have a clue what it is about they just want to be heard and taken serious. The press is also a big factor in that matter. They do an interview and release a story but only a part of the interview makes the story on itself. People judgde on that story while it is only a part of its total construction. It is like they see a puzzle and judge it while they only see half of it. 

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2 minutes ago, Blaid Drwg said:

I write also and afterwards my wife is the first to read it. Her opinion besides mine is the only one that matters to me but than I ask of her to be brutaly honest. But it happend on more than one occasion that she finds it good and Im not happy with it well than I throw it away. Another example is I played football for 30 years as a semi pro. After the game you always talk a bit with fans or players off the opponent. I can tell you in lots of occasions it happens fans come to you and tell you that you played a good game while you did not or vice versa. I never valued those opinions except those of my coach offcourse because he and only he knew wich my task was on the pitch and thus can value my performance.

The problem these days in current society is that everyone has an opinion on everything, even when they dont have a clue what it is about they just want to be heard and taken serious. The press is also a big factor in that matter. They do an interview and release a story but only a part of the interview makes the story on itself. People judgde on that story while it is only a part of its total construction. It is like they see a puzzle and judge it while they only see half of it. 

I know exacty what you mean, especially in a second paragraph. But we are a bit off the subject right now. But nevermind. Thanks for this nice conversation and hope to hear more from you on this forum. I have to go now.

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21 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

I know exacty what you mean, especially in a second paragraph. But we are a bit off the subject right now. But nevermind. Thanks for this nice conversation and hope to hear more from you on this forum. I have to go now.

It is not bit of subject I believe since society and press has a huge influence on it in my opinion.

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Cool thread. I think people should not only explore their shadow, but find a way to be ok with it. It is you after all, like it or not. When you can make peace with your shadow, you will find true peace inside. Your motivations are no longer drawn from fear, or running from things.

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