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aztek

'Men have issues too!' Controversial female '

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Paranormal Panther
On 10/19/2017 at 5:17 AM, preacherman76 said:

Well that's really the thing. Most people who bring up men's issues are accused of wanting to belittle women. Not true at all.

I'm not a fan of MGTOW or third-wave feminism because they're the adult versions of "boys/girls have cooties". Their radical approaches minimize *real* inequalities. It's no coincidence that both came forth during the rise of the Millennial generation, and I'm not just blaming Millennials, but there's a link. The cultural pendulum swings.

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Stubbly_Dooright
12 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:
On 10/27/2017 at 11:14 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Let's see, you mentioned male nurses, so compared to female nurses. According to this site:

Here:

Now, they go into various fields, and there are reasons, but one of the reasons does include 'gender discrimination'. 

This site shows teachers among various professions  where men are outpayed over women. Granted, there show reasons, like women taking time off for family, but if men, ( I know a lot do this, as I have mentioned I know someone who went on paternity leave twice ) took more responsibilities for the family and home, this wouldn't be a problem. 

Men's jobs? 

Women's jobs? 

And what are those Men's jobs and Women's jobs? 

That's the kind of thing that should be highlighted in the discussion. If all factors are equal, there shouldn't be a pay gap between men and women. I'm fine with finding ways to address real inequities based on gender. We should be past that.

Well, yes. But, it should have not only been something to discussed a long time ago, I believe, but probably not done. Things, like different expectations (and more than likely stereotyping) of the two genders, I feel, went on way too long. And, I still feel, are not getting the attention and the need to stop it right now. I mentioned examples, of equality of time off for men, but as I have said before, very few examples. (It does take the two parents to care for the children, despite one of them, (most of the time) having the ability to conceive and carry them to term). Even though this was years ago, during that time as one assistant manager, when accidentally comparing salaries with a male assistant manager, I was single, no reason to think I was getting married in the future, and still working the same long hours, doing the same hard work, as that male assistant manager. That, THAT, I found wrong. I still read about it, and have found out in various companies, that still happens. 

Granted, minimum wage doesn't seem to do that, (if it is, anyone, please correct me) but I wonder on the hours scheduled for both men and women. 

I think it's time to stop assuming about expectations of the genders, and actually see the promises and the recorded experiences of hard work on both genders. 

Quote

As for "men's jobs" and "women's jobs", I'm talking about jobs that often are held by mostly men or mostly women. I'm not saying that only people of a certain gender should hold them. That's why I use(d) quotation marks. I base all things on merit, not gender.  

I was hoping for actual examples, titles and roles, positions, that were usually assumed to be those 'women's jobs' and 'men's jobs'. Like, when reading up on the nursing jobs, in one of the links, I read how, (and kind of knew in a sense) that nursing is usually considered as a job usually held by women. (and usually considered to be held by women). It said there, that now more men are holding them, and that yes, despite that, that link showed men are mostly earning more than women in them. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
12 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:
On 10/19/2017 at 5:17 AM, preacherman76 said:

Well that's really the thing. Most people who bring up men's issues are accused of wanting to belittle women. Not true at all.

I'm not a fan of MGTOW or third-wave feminism because they're the adult versions of "boys/girls have cooties". Their radical approaches minimize *real* inequalities. It's no coincidence that both came forth during the rise of the Millennial generation, and I'm not just blaming Millennials, but there's a link. The cultural pendulum swings.

I have always see such groups, as small groupings of those, that bring a bad name for feminists and other groups hoping to bring equality. I have always noticed, that there always seem to be fringe groups that come up that will seem to me, to undermine the goal of real groups. 

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preacherman76
2 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

 

Sorry Stub, I didn't mean to quote you. Cant seem to undo it.

Anyhow If you really want to see where I'm coming from, I'd ask that you watch this short video. This woman helped a lot shaping my views on this subject.

 

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Stubbly_Dooright
8 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Sorry Stub, I didn't mean to quote you. Cant seem to undo it.

Anyhow If you really want to see where I'm coming from, I'd ask that you watch this short video. This woman helped a lot shaping my views on this subject.

 

I know, that this happens a lot, these glitches on this board. 

Anyways, were you saying this to me or everyone about your point of the video?

I hope it's understood, that on top of hoping that everyone understands what feminism is and that it's about everyone is equal, that I and others do realize that men do have the back end of these problems. I am firmly aware, ( and have been saying ) that there have problems men have to deal, when looking at the one sided notion of how women are looked at and expected to behave. And I know, that's not fair. 

I firmly believe, that in custody cases, the children should go to the parent who are the ones who actually loves, takes care, and provides for them, be it the mother or father. (I know that it's mostly the mother) 

I do know, that men are abused by their wives or girlfriends. Not as much as women, but remembering waiting on a sweet gentleman many years ago, who was being abused by his wife, I'm firmly aware. (My heart went out to the guy.) 

I know, men have been told to keep it in, take it like a man, and I feel that's not healthy. That should express their emotions too. 

Yes, I can go on and on. I know, there are two sides to the coin here. I'm not just a daughter, (who lost her dad in 2013) but a sister of three brothers, (one who passed in 2010) a wife, a mother of a son as well as a daughter. and so and so on. I worry about my son with situations, that I worry of my daughter in others. I see it on both sides. I worry about it on both sides. 

But, I am hoping that we genders both, are helping each side with the issues. 

 

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Paranormal Panther
10 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Well, yes. But, it should have not only been something to discussed a long time ago, I believe, but probably not done. Things, like different expectations (and more than likely stereotyping) of the two genders, I feel, went on way too long. And, I still feel, are not getting the attention and the need to stop it right now. I mentioned examples, of equality of time off for men, but as I have said before, very few examples. (It does take the two parents to care for the children, despite one of them, (most of the time) having the ability to conceive and carry them to term). Even though this was years ago, during that time as one assistant manager, when accidentally comparing salaries with a male assistant manager, I was single, no reason to think I was getting married in the future, and still working the same long hours, doing the same hard work, as that male assistant manager. That, THAT, I found wrong. I still read about it, and have found out in various companies, that still happens. 

Granted, minimum wage doesn't seem to do that, (if it is, anyone, please correct me) but I wonder on the hours scheduled for both men and women. 

I think it's time to stop assuming about expectations of the genders, and actually see the promises and the recorded experiences of hard work on both genders. 

I was hoping for actual examples, titles and roles, positions, that were usually assumed to be those 'women's jobs' and 'men's jobs'. Like, when reading up on the nursing jobs, in one of the links, I read how, (and kind of knew in a sense) that nursing is usually considered as a job usually held by women. (and usually considered to be held by women). It said there, that now more men are holding them, and that yes, despite that, that link showed men are mostly earning more than women in them. 

I place merit over gender. That aside, there are real differences between men and women. It's unrealistic to dismiss them if they don't meet PC expectations. Nature is what it is. Men tend to do better at certain jobs, and women tend to do better at certain jobs. Men are better in occupations in which superior size and strength are advantages and/or requirements, like firefighters. Women are better in occupations in which children are involved, like nannies. I know that there are exceptions to these rules.

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Paranormal Panther
11 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I have always see such groups, as small groupings of those, that bring a bad name for feminists and other groups hoping to bring equality. I have always noticed, that there always seem to be fringe groups that come up that will seem to me, to undermine the goal of real groups. 

That's a good point. You see the same kind of thing with civil rights groups and labor groups. They start out as "heroes" and finish up as "villains". They often don't change with the times.

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Stubbly_Dooright
14 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

I place merit over gender. That aside, there are real differences between men and women. It's unrealistic to dismiss them if they don't meet PC expectations. Nature is what it is. Men tend to do better at certain jobs, and women tend to do better at certain jobs. Men are better in occupations in which superior size and strength are advantages and/or requirements, like firefighters. Women are better in occupations in which children are involved, like nannies. I know that there are exceptions to these rules.

I'm trying to figure out your point, I put in bold, as to the rest of the paragraph. Overall, yes, gender may have a higher to somewhat high ration of strength in certain jobs, but not all. And I think, that makes a big difference. I hate to think, that one person or two or more, of one particular gender, who seems to succeed in a job of the opposite gender, is being ostracized from it. And then mistreated, ( or something close to that ) because they can't do a job usually done by their gender. 

Frankly, the big thing that is the difference, is that women have the ability to get pregnant and have children. (and even then, not all have that biological ability.) And yes, men can't at all, but pretty much, we also have size and attitude and emotional well being to think of. It's not usually one hundred percent connected to just one gender. Women can make great commanders of the military, ( there was one for a time at the base we were stationed at, and I thought she did better than most of the male base commanders.)

I don't think, it's that black and white, when it comes to this particular subject of what gender can do and suppose to do, because each gender comes in different shapes and sizes. 

And when it comes to pregnancy, I do believe many women postpone that or don't even do that, for their jobs. (In which, I see a lot of negative commentary on that :angry: ) 

So, sorry, even though there is a bit of reality of what you say, I say to a point. It is really a grey area for me. Hell, during those times when we lived on the base, when my husband was deployed, I mowed the lawn, and other such things he normally did. And even though we were expected our male neighbors to help us, (an expectation you should really not depend on) they were usually deployed too. (and I should point out, a lot of females were deployed too, as we all know. of course, right? :tu: ) 

Anyways, I did things, that was both of a mother and a father. So, you can see, where I don't have that outlook.  

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Stubbly_Dooright
14 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:
On 10/29/2017 at 8:02 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I have always see such groups, as small groupings of those, that bring a bad name for feminists and other groups hoping to bring equality. I have always noticed, that there always seem to be fringe groups that come up that will seem to me, to undermine the goal of real groups. 

That's a good point. You see the same kind of thing with civil rights groups and labor groups. They start out as "heroes" and finish up as "villains". They often don't change with the times.

I know, it's not black and white on this subject, and yes I am fully aware of what men go through. I'm married, and see my husband go through this. Like how that sweet abused gentleman stands out in my memory. So, I know, and I understand. 

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Paranormal Panther
On 10/30/2017 at 9:59 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I'm trying to figure out your point, I put in bold, as to the rest of the paragraph. Overall, yes, gender may have a higher to somewhat high ration of strength in certain jobs, but not all. And I think, that makes a big difference. I hate to think, that one person or two or more, of one particular gender, who seems to succeed in a job of the opposite gender, is being ostracized from it. And then mistreated, ( or something close to that ) because they can't do a job usually done by their gender. 

Frankly, the big thing that is the difference, is that women have the ability to get pregnant and have children. (and even then, not all have that biological ability.) And yes, men can't at all, but pretty much, we also have size and attitude and emotional well being to think of. It's not usually one hundred percent connected to just one gender. Women can make great commanders of the military, ( there was one for a time at the base we were stationed at, and I thought she did better than most of the male base commanders.)

I don't think, it's that black and white, when it comes to this particular subject of what gender can do and suppose to do, because each gender comes in different shapes and sizes. 

And when it comes to pregnancy, I do believe many women postpone that or don't even do that, for their jobs. (In which, I see a lot of negative commentary on that :angry: ) 

So, sorry, even though there is a bit of reality of what you say, I say to a point. It is really a grey area for me. Hell, during those times when we lived on the base, when my husband was deployed, I mowed the lawn, and other such things he normally did. And even though we were expected our male neighbors to help us, (an expectation you should really not depend on) they were usually deployed too. (and I should point out, a lot of females were deployed too, as we all know. of course, right? :tu: ) 

Anyways, I did things, that was both of a mother and a father. So, you can see, where I don't have that outlook.  

Here's what I mean. There are biological and chemical natural facts that can't be changed through progressive rhetoric. Keep in mind that I'm *not* referring to specific exceptions to general rules, as I'm referring to just average individuals. People often ignore that. Someone says that men tend to be taller than women. A second person mentions that his wife is taller than him. They completely and totally miss the point. It changes the debate into something else.

My point is that some jobs require physical strength. Men are better suited for these occupations. They obviously, as a rule, are bigger and stronger than women. That's why they dominate these fields. Women should not pursue these jobs if they lack the size and strength to do them. A female firefighter did an undercover study of the dangers of PC philosophy that ignored this fact. She filmed female firefighters, much weaker than her, who weren't strong enough to perform their duties. This put lives in danger.

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