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lost_shaman

Right to an education without indoctrination.

187 posts in this topic

18 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

I think you underestimate the Christian right's religious agenda.

I don't. I just know unfair hyperbole when I see it.

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41 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Not bad, for about 200 days of work per year!

... damn, I really should have planned my life out a little better.

Teachers here at least work rediculously long hours. 

I worked at a school as the activities co-ordinator for 3 years. The Teachers stayed back until 7 most nights having meetings, and planning lessons. The only time anyone left earlier they had a sports team to coach (unpaid).

School holidays consisted of room organisation, term planning and assessments. Not vacations.

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47 minutes ago, rodentraiser said:

Parents are the biggest brainwashers - er, indoctrinators - anyway.

This is the kind of garbage and nonsense that makes me want to give up on the Political sections of the sites I visit.

Look, I know that all the Disney shows portray Parents in one of two ways; idiots or absent. That is so that the stars, the Kids, can be the heroes, but that isn't real life.

 

Bringing children into this world is an act of love (now that people have a choice, that is more true today than ever before) and entails a certain amount of sacrifice. Not just a sacrifice of wealth and privacy, but of one's own time. The worst parents are not the ones that spend time "indoctrinating" their offspring. The worst ones are the ones that ignore their kids most of the time, and they are horribly common. 

No, it does not take a village to raise a child, just one or two committed adults, the sort that can put their common sense ahead of their pride.

 

The State can go from seeing a person as an exploitable resource, a problem, or as a recruit for it's war machine, and that can change with the whim of a despot or a single election.

Family is different.

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23 minutes ago, Kismit said:

Teachers here at least work rediculously long hours. 

I worked at a school as the activities co-ordinator for 3 years. The Teachers stayed back until 7 most nights having meetings, and planning lessons. The only time anyone left earlier they had a sports team to coach (unpaid).

School holidays consisted of room organisation, term planning and assessments. Not vacations.

Things are very, very different here, these days.

They tweaked the Wednesday schedule, starting High School late and letting Elementary out early so they can have their meetings and such. The kids get a week off for Thanksgiving and Spring Break, and two weeks for Christmas. Only 4 days in those four weeks see the staff doing any work at all.

The Union protects them from most "overtime", a crazy idea for salaried workers.

And the 2.5-month Summer break sees them spending a grand total of about 15 working days at the schools, at the most.

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1 hour ago, AnchorSteam said:

Not bad, for about 200 days of work per year!

... damn, I really should have planned my life out a little better.

Two words- Student loans.

Teachers starting pay in Oregon is around $35,000.  (Just need bachelors)  That's just a little over $17/hr.  Not the poverty level, but with the added student loan bills it is still pretty rough.

Here's an NPR article on that: http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/07/16/536488351/teachers-with-student-debt-the-struggle-the-causes-and-what-comes-next

 

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10 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

I don't do the straw man thing, so you can put that to the side. I'm fine with improving debating skills, if that's what you mean. However, you seem to be supporting instructing (possibly violates parental rights) kids on what to think if they're "uninformed", which is both confusing and contradictory if you're just referring to debating skills. If you *are* just referring to debating skills, I can't disagree with you. 

I've clearly said that's what I was talking about from the start. Either you're deliberately misrepresenting my argument for 3 pages or reading comprehension needs serious work in the US.  

10 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Not bad, for about 200 days of work per year!

... damn, I really should have planned my life out a little better.

Oh get a new record. Even the most ignorant must know teachers work long hours and through the holidays. 

When I was teaching, I worked a 70 hour week in term time and about 40 a week during the holidays. I got about 4 weeks a year actually off (standard minimum in the UK) but worked far more hours than an employer can legally expect here. On a teachers salary, it worked out at about half the minimum wage. 

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On 10/19/2017 at 2:40 AM, lost_shaman said:

That actually doesn't relate to the U.S. educational system. 

To have children understand both their rights and responsibilities under our form of government doesn't "relate" to our educational system?  I was educated in public school in Mobile, Alabama between 1968 and 1979.  I regularly see people who roll their eyes and scoff at the education Southerners receive in comparison to the rest of the nation, yet today I know more about the three branches of government and how they function than the great majority of kids graduating H.S.  It's as though the public schools are intentionally keeping the kids from understanding their duty to this country.  If some entity wanted to destroy this nation from within, I can't imagine a better way of accomplishing it.  We teach the kids the price of everything and the VALUE of nothing...

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13 hours ago, Setton said:

I've clearly said that's what I was talking about from the start. Either you're deliberately misrepresenting my argument for 3 pages or reading comprehension needs serious work in the US.  

Oh get a new record. Even the most ignorant must know teachers work long hours and through the holidays. 

When I was teaching, I worked a 70 hour week in term time and about 40 a week during the holidays. I got about 4 weeks a year actually off (standard minimum in the UK) but worked far more hours than an employer can legally expect here. On a teachers salary, it worked out at about half the minimum wage. 

Both the OP and I noticed the same thing. Maybe you can't express yourself very well. You contradicted yourself, and one phrase didn't change that fact. Read your posts before you click on the reply button to make sure that you're not writing gobbledygook. 

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An interesting thought hit me last night. The videos that are being filmed by the children who are apparently being brain washed. 

If they where fully complicit, would not actually be filming.

Just a point.

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8 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

Both the OP and I noticed the same thing. Maybe you can't express yourself very well. You contradicted yourself, and one phrase didn't change that fact. Read your posts before you click on the reply button to make sure that you're not writing gobbledygook. 

And yet plenty of others understood it first time. Perhaps you and shaman should spend more time reading and thinking before spouting off. 

I apologise if my posts are too difficult for you both. I'll try to keep them to a lower reading level in future. 

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On 10/22/2017 at 2:36 AM, Setton said:

Oh get a new record.

I wasn't aware that I had brought it up more than twice, and the 2nd time was to contradict an attack on the 1st post.

On 10/22/2017 at 2:36 AM, Setton said:

Even the most ignorant must know teachers work long hours and through the holidays. 

Wrong, and calling me ignorant isn't going to make he scuttle away with tail tucked firmly between my legs.

Just the opposite.

On 10/22/2017 at 2:36 AM, Setton said:

When I was teaching, I worked a 70 hour week in term time and about 40 a week during the holidays. I got about 4 weeks a year actually off (standard minimum in the UK) but worked far more hours than an employer can legally expect here. On a teachers salary, it worked out at about half the minimum wage. 

When you were teaching, when was that? Give us a hint; who was President then?

Yes, President. This is the US Politics section, and this subject is about teachers in the US. Not the UK, where apparently everyone walked to school in the snow 5 miles every day, and it was uphill each way, :rofl:.

17 hours ago, Kismit said:

An interesting thought hit me last night. The videos that are being filmed by the children who are apparently being brain washed. 

If they where fully complicit, would not actually be filming.

Just a point.

And a wonderful point it is!

Children are rebelling against an impersonal bureaucracy that is trying to stamp their curiosity and energetic approach to the world right out of them.

Are we going to help them?

 

 

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14 hours ago, Setton said:

And yet plenty of others understood it first time. Perhaps you and shaman should spend more time reading and thinking before spouting off. 

I apologise if my posts are too difficult for you both. I'll try to keep them to a lower reading level in future. 

It's funny. I comprehend and understand most posts just fine. The bottom line is that you contradicted yourself with comments that had nothing to do with debate skills. I looked at the totality of your posts, not just one phrase.

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On 10/17/2017 at 10:03 PM, lost_shaman said:

Should our Children and Grand-children have a Right to an education without a political indoctrination? 

I will leave this here without further comment in this post at this time so you can contemplate this question. 

 

By default of the host country, there will always be some form of political influence within education.

That's perfectly normal and expected.

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5 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

I wasn't aware that I had brought it up more than twice, and the 2nd time was to contradict an attack on the 1st post.

Wrong, and calling me ignorant isn't going to make he scuttle away with tail tucked firmly between my legs.

Just the opposite.

When you were teaching, when was that? Give us a hint; who was President then?

Yes, President. This is the US Politics section, and this subject is about teachers in the US. Not the UK, where apparently everyone walked to school in the snow 5 miles every day, and it was uphill each way, :rofl:.

And a wonderful point it is!

Children are rebelling against an impersonal bureaucracy that is trying to stamp their curiosity and energetic approach to the world right out of them.

Are we going to help them?

 

 

it's hardly a new thing, considering the music piece you chose reflects a similar concept of indoctrination from 1979. Absolutely a fabulous piece of anti establishment cultural referencing. The album/film breaks down the ideas of conservative indoctrination of the children, using corporal punishment and fear tactics. The movie/album is about how bad it is to stifle the free liberated thinking that came out of the late 60's and that was a reaction to a conservative, 'do as you are told', 1950's.

The only real difference now, is that people think they can pick and choose what it's o.k. to think freely about., When in reality the simple act of picking and choosing means you haven't allowed for actual unadulterated free thought. 

I personally would fight tooth and nail not to return to the days of actual brainwashed conservatism, when a child was beaten for not doing as the school/government/church thought was right. A time when being gay was bad, being black was bad, being a woman meant if you wanted to work you could be a secretary or a teacher (and sexual harassment at work was accepted as normal), being an immigrant made you dirty, and asking questions was wrong.

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3 hours ago, Kismit said:

The only real difference now, is that people think they can pick and choose what it's o.k. to think freely about.

Doesn't that just drive you mad?

What ever happened to the Greek idea about Critical inquiry? 

Quote

I personally would fight tooth and nail not to return to the days of actual brainwashed conservatism,...

There HAS to be another option.

Why must human minds always have to bounce back and forth between extremes? 

Another idea from ancient Greece; Moderation in all things. 

 

(and BTW, Pink Floyd has been my personal favorite band since the 70s, but The Division Bell kinda killed it for me)

Edited by AnchorSteam
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My Dad used to say, "Extremes are bad". The application to something like this topic is epic. The notion that the extremes of the past were bad (and they were) somehow means we now need to move to opposite extremes (which are bad too) is complete and utter nonsense.

Keep religious, political and any other adult issues out of our schools. Children do not have the intellectual or psychological development to deal with such adult issues. Once children become young adults (late High School, College) then basic information on these issues can be neutrally presented and the young adults can then make up their own minds.

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On 10/18/2017 at 0:03 AM, lost_shaman said:

Should our Children and Grand-children have a Right to an education without a political indoctrination? 

I will leave this here without further comment in this post at this time so you can contemplate this question. 

 

 

On 10/21/2017 at 7:51 AM, Lilly said:

Good Grief. This is really such a simple concept...teachers should keep their personal religious/political/social views to themselves. At higher levels (Senior year of High School and College) these subjects can be studied in a rational neutral manner where all sides of the debate are presented.

No educator should be 'going after' or advocating for any politicians or political party in their classroom. No religion should be being slammed or advocated for in their classroom. Hot button issues on politics, religion, sexuality should not even be discussed with children. Children simply do not have the emotional or rational maturity to deal with these types of issues. IMO exposing children to subjects they are incapable of comprehending and emotionally dealing with is down right wrong.

BTW, the 'offenders' in this area come from all sides of the spectrum (right left middle). Oh, and teachers are required to have Masters Degrees, they are indeed educated and as such should know better than to engage in such behaviors to begin with.

I'm kind of in the boat with Lilly on this. And to answer the OP's post, is yes, they should have the right to an education, without indoctrination. Why? And it's not just general indoctrination, it will probably be a particular themed indoctrination. That's not something for impressionable minds, is it now. 

I agree with Lilly, the U.S. education system, should reflect out country's secular set up, and stay secular. That doesn't  mean, leave it all out, but educate it, in the manner of educating. That means, all of it, to give a broader few, but not to say, one must believe it. Just know it. 

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Newt Gingrich: Left-wing education cheats children

Quote

 

The high school used to be fifth in the state for reading scores, now it’s 29th. It used to be 10th in math proficiency, now it’s 40th.

This sudden decline in performance is what happens when educators think it is their job to impose their political views on students. Every American, in every state should make sure their elected school officials are focused on education – not political indoctrination.

 

I couldn't agree more!

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Even education is politicized though.  Common Core..ugh.  Its like good examples are now how you do the work.  ****ing weak when a learning tool becomes how you do math.  Long division is so much easier.  Classical education become something people fear.  I remember my philo teacher calling the class above us idiots everyday; because they moved seats into a circle to talk.   When did a teacher student relationship become viewed as a micro aggression. 

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On Saturday, October 21, 2017 at 5:15 PM, AnchorSteam said:

This is the kind of garbage and nonsense that makes me want to give up on the Political sections of the sites I visit.

 

Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar. I rest my case.

Edited by rodentraiser

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On 10/24/2017 at 8:56 AM, Lilly said:

Keep religious, political and any other adult issues out of our schools.

Does that include the pledge of allegiance? 

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2 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Does that include the pledge of allegiance? 

And let's not forget sex education as well.

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I think part of the problem we have when discussing politics and education is what is considered politics. 

To me not screwing up the environment isnt politics, its just common sense whereas many see it as 'political'. 

Another example is my parents were p***ed about the schools interjecting politics in my history classes when we watched  "eye on the prize" a documentary about the civil rights era.  I dont think many would (at least admit to) think discussing the fight for racial equality in the civil rights era is politics yet it was added to their pile of (many preconceived) biases of "liberal educators". 

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5 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Does that include the pledge of allegiance? 

No, because the pledge of allegiance does not deal with party politics. The pledge of allegiance is part of learning that we are all citizens of the United States of America, that we live in a Republic, that we are to always strive for liberty and justice for all, that we are one nation (not a group of warring tribal factions) that we are not to be divided.

Frankly, to all those who don't want to be a citizen of the United States of America, who don't *like* our Constitution, who want some other form of government, who just think all these other nations are doing so much better and so on. My advice: Please immigrate to the nation of your choice. Give up your US citizenship and allow others (who really want to be US citizens) the opportunity to do so.

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On Tuesday, November 07, 2017 at 4:28 AM, Lilly said:

No, because the pledge of allegiance does not deal with party politics. The pledge of allegiance is part of learning that we are all citizens of the United States of America, that we live in a Republic, that we are to always strive for liberty and justice for all, that we are one nation (not a group of warring tribal factions) that we are not to be divided.

Frankly, to all those who don't want to be a citizen of the United States of America, who don't *like* our Constitution, who want some other form of government, who just think all these other nations are doing so much better and so on. My advice: Please immigrate to the nation of your choice. Give up your US citizenship and allow others (who really want to be US citizens) the opportunity to do so.

Besides, the Pledge brings both politics and religion into school in one recitation.

Seriously, though, and with all due respect, I do have to take issue with you saying we should leave the country if we don't like our Constitution, because not liking the Constitution and not wanting to be a citizen of the US is not the same thing. And I don't think liking the Constitution is the issue. It's more about correcting some of the things it doesn't cover and correcting some of the corrections that were made in the past. The fact that we even have amendments means that somewhere along the line someone didn't "like" what the original Constitution contained and took steps to change it.

As a citizen of the US, it's my country right or wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to say something when I feel it's wrong. And because I speak up when I think the Constitution needs amending doesn't in any way mean I don't like my country or mean that I want to live somewhere else.

 

And um, Myles, being white and male isn't bad. It just means you have a lot of areas to improve in. :D

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