On Trump Calling Families of Fallen Soldiers

[Gunn]

3 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

That brings to mind an idea for a new thread. It wouldn't deal with the draft or the military, but it would touch upon some of your ideas. For example, citizens should be required to work for government assistance. I'm talking about able-bodied people. They could gain job and work experience until they are able to live without help, and they could be hired at the places in which they work. They also could perform community service (cleaning parks, tending roads, cutting grass, etc.). It seems like this would be a no-lose situation. Communities, as well as recipients, would gain. 

You might be interested in reading this then; 

https://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/able-bodied-adults-without-dependents-abawds

Seems they had a similar idea to yours.

.

8 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

AT, you hit one of my buttons.  They did require service.  Or I should say they limited the government from infringing on our ability to do so.  This is what is meant as a well regulated militia.  Washington succinctly expressed what many of the Founding Fathers felt in a letter to Alexander Hamilton.

*snip for brevity*

 

1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

It isn’t so much as mandatory service as it is what Washington stated that it is our duty living under a free government as the basis of our system.

So in order to live under a free government and have natural rights, individuals born in the U.S. should pay for that through labor, in some type of civil, military, community service for such a length of time? I mean it sounds good, sort of reminds me of the Peace Corps, but see that's voluntary. But the way you describe it, not quite voluntary, it sounds like servitude.

[RavenHawk]

29 minutes ago, Purifier said:

So in order to live under a free government and have natural rights, individuals born in the U.S. should pay for that through labor, in some type of civil, military, community service for such a length of time? I mean it sounds good, sort of reminds me of the Peace Corps, but see that's voluntary. But the way you describe it, not quite voluntary, it sounds like servitude.

No, you just don’t get it.  We don’t need to offer mandatory service to have natural Rights but that was never the point to offering service.  In order to enjoy the protections this government gives us, it is our duty to see that this government continues.  We protect the government and the government protects us.  Even under an oppressive regime which is the majority of governments, the people of those nations still have their natural Rights.  It’s just that the more oppressive the governments, the more Rights are deprived.  It is very hard for the individual or even groups of individuals to defend themselves against these governments.  Because this government was charged with defending our Rights, instead of granting us Rights, that makes us unique. 

 

This government isn’t a set-it-and-leave-it type government.  It requires active participation by the body politic.  When that doesn’t happen then the people start to take their freedoms for granted.  Our freedoms are never more than a generation away from disappearing.  That’s what allows those like Obama and Hilary to ascend to leadership roles.  So to put it in your terms, do you want to live under the servitude of a despot or the servitude of a free nation in order to keep the despots at bay?  BTW, isn’t K-12 a form of servitude? 

 

But as another point goes, this service helps the high school grad into developing a good work habit entering the workforce which protects their future earning capabilities.  Isn’t that something very beneficial to the individual?  This is not just service to the nation but also service to oneself.  It’s win-win.

[+OverSword]

On 10/20/2017 at 8:02 PM, third_eye said:

Maybe I need a refresher on Obama Romney 2012 because that's not what I remember to be the case ...
 

• Ballotpedia link

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and oh ... I'm currently :

 

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And yet he still couldn't get any legislation passed and decided to bypass the house and senate through the use of presidential decree, which as I mentione3d is a house of sticks waiting to be blown down.  Just not a good unifying leader the way every president was for the 30 some odd years before him..

[thedutchiedutch]

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎21 at 6:54 PM, Paranormal Panther said:

Maybe he should plan and prepare his comments to avoid future problems. Even so, it's a safe bet that the Democratic propaganda news outlets will "find" something for which to attack him. If they can't find it, they'll manufacture it. At the same time, they won't mention any *real* scandals from people on their side of the political aisle.

Thank you, he should, or he should just take the advice from his general and not make the call to begin with. None of this would have happened and the media would not have anything to attack him with to start with about this. And you know what, karma is b****, trump had his own propaganda going against Obama for years so I really don't feel sorry for him.   

[Paranormal Panther]

19 hours ago, Purifier said:

You might be interested in reading this then; 

https://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/able-bodied-adults-without-dependents-abawds

Seems they had a similar idea to yours.

.

 

So in order to live under a free government and have natural rights, individuals born in the U.S. should pay for that through labor, in some type of civil, military, community service for such a length of time? I mean it sounds good, sort of reminds me of the Peace Corps, but see that's voluntary. But the way you describe it, not quite voluntary, it sounds like servitude.

Thanks for the link. It sounds like we have the same thoughts on service. Both community service and military service are honorable activities, but it means that much more when it's voluntary rather than mandatory. The same logic applies to charitable activities.

[Paranormal Panther]

45 minutes ago, thedutchiedutch said:

Thank you, he should, or he should just take the advice from his general and not make the call to begin with. None of this would have happened and the media would not have anything to attack him with to start with about this. And you know what, karma is b****, trump had his own propaganda going against Obama for years so I really don't feel sorry for him.   

I see an example of that with the investigation of Podesta. Trump was falsely accused of working with Russians to steal the presidency from the evil queen. It now turns out that her side colluded with them. Leftists often accuse others of their own crimes and sins, so I'm not surprised.

[Paranormal Panther]

21 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

It isn’t so much as mandatory service as it is what Washington stated that it is our duty living under a free government as the basis of our system.

I'm all for voluntary service to our country. There are many ways to do it. 

[Gunn]

17 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

No, you just don’t get it.  We don’t need to offer mandatory service to have natural Rights but that was never the point to offering service.  In order to enjoy the protections this government gives us, it is our duty to see that this government continues.  We protect the government and the government protects us.  Even under an oppressive regime which is the majority of governments, the people of those nations still have their natural Rights.  It’s just that the more oppressive the governments, the more Rights are deprived.  It is very hard for the individual or even groups of individuals to defend themselves against these governments.  Because this government was charged with defending our Rights, instead of granting us Rights, that makes us unique. 

 

This government isn’t a set-it-and-leave-it type government.  It requires active participation by the body politic.  When that doesn’t happen then the people start to take their freedoms for granted.  Our freedoms are never more than a generation away from disappearing.  That’s what allows those like Obama and Hilary to ascend to leadership roles.  So to put it in your terms, do you want to live under the servitude of a despot or the servitude of a free nation in order to keep the despots at bay?  BTW, isn’t K-12 a form of servitude? 

 

But as another point goes, this service helps the high school grad into developing a good work habit entering the workforce which protects their future earning capabilities.  Isn’t that something very beneficial to the individual?  This is not just service to the nation but also service to oneself.  It’s win-win.

Naw I understand you now, after I went back and did some research on the subject after replying to your post. Still looking into it, though.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal name keeps popping up and it's interesting to hear him talk about the idea. Also read something about the Dems trying to introduce a bill called the Universal Service Act of 2003 that never passed and probably never will. Don't know if it's because the Dems tried to introduce a bill first back in 03, but the public don't seem to be too thrilled with the idea.

Anyway, it's all very interesting.

 

[SHaYap]

10 hours ago, OverSword said:

And yet he still couldn't get any legislation passed and decided to bypass the house and senate through the use of presidential decree, which as I mentione3d is a house of sticks waiting to be blown down.  Just not a good unifying leader the way every president was for the 30 some odd years before him..

I dunno man ... sometimes I do think that Obama is shoved up the wrong ends pretty unfairly ...
 

Quote

 

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"It’s not all power grabs. A lot of it is clearly trivial stuff," he said.

~ William Howell, a University of Chicago professor and author of Politics Without Persuasion: The Politics of Direct Presidential Action.

 

• USA Today link

[Tatetopa]

On 10/21/2017 at 6:33 AM, Why not said:

Your hate shows like a super nova. The phone call never even would have been known about if someone in a funny cowboy hat didn't do everything she could to politicize it.

Here is the deal for me.  I will give him full credit for making the call, it was a hard thing to do.  It is a tough part of being President.  He probably has not made too many calls like that.  OK so he botched it, and he gets flamed.  Maybe it was that bad, I don't know.  What I do know is this:  he could have said "I blew it, I was nervous and I didn't know what to say. I can't imagine what it is like to lose a loved one like that. I will do better on the next call."  Trump supporters would have loved it of course.  What might surprise you is that some of us non-supporters would have liked it too.  The guy made a mistake and admitted it, that is a grown up thing to do.  Everybody does occasionally make mistake, it is OK.  That would have been the end of the issue.

I don't mind if leaders are not perfect.  If they make a few mistakes and learn by them so much the better. What worries me is leaders and important members of our society that never admit they are wrong, and try to find excuses or blame other people.  You can generate a big list on both sides of the political spectrum that fall into that pattern. Precious few saints on either side of the aisle.

[RavenHawk]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Here is the deal for me.  I will give him full credit for making the call, it was a hard thing to do.  It is a tough part of being President.  He probably has not made too many calls like that.  OK so he botched it, and he gets flamed.  Maybe it was that bad, I don't know.  What I do know is this:  he could have said "I blew it, I was nervous and I didn't know what to say. I can't imagine what it is like to lose a loved one like that. I will do better on the next call."  Trump supporters would have loved it of course.  What might surprise you is that some of us non-supporters would have liked it too.  The guy made a mistake and admitted it, that is a grown up thing to do.  Everybody does occasionally make mistake, it is OK.  That would have been the end of the issue.

I don't mind if leaders are not perfect.  If they make a few mistakes and learn by them so much the better. What worries me is leaders and important members of our society that never admit they are wrong, and try to find excuses or blame other people.  You can generate a big list on both sides of the political spectrum that fall into that pattern. Precious few saints on either side of the aisle.

If this was a normal event, I would say that after the sting of the moment passed and he realized that perhaps he didn’t say things in the best way (there was nothing wrong with what he said) he would have been in a better position to concede that he did make a mistake but that isn’t what happened.  He was callously attacked by someone that should have kept her nose out of it.  Rep Wilson should have quietly gone to the President and told him that she thought that he hadn’t expressed himself very well and that it might be a good idea to make a private followup call.  But that’s not what she did.  She stirred things up making herself look like an idiot by plastering her face all over the media with that “look at me, see what I just did”.  And now that she’s had a bit of time to coach the widow, has doubled down.  Trump can deal with all of this political bull**** and Wilson will pay for it but when you lose soldiers under your watch, you had better believe that you know and will remember each and every name.  Consoling loved ones is perhaps the most difficult and solemn things a President can try to accomplish and someone to try to score points off of it is despicable.

[Why not]

3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Here is the deal for me.  I will give him full credit for making the call, it was a hard thing to do.  It is a tough part of being President.  He probably has not made too many calls like that.  OK so he botched it, and he gets flamed.  Maybe it was that bad, I don't know.  What I do know is this:  he could have said "I blew it, I was nervous and I didn't know what to say. I can't imagine what it is like to lose a loved one like that. I will do better on the next call."  Trump supporters would have loved it of course.  What might surprise you is that some of us non-supporters would have liked it too.  The guy made a mistake and admitted it, that is a grown up thing to do.  Everybody does occasionally make mistake, it is OK.  That would have been the end of the issue.

I don't mind if leaders are not perfect.  If they make a few mistakes and learn by them so much the better. What worries me is leaders and important members of our society that never admit they are wrong, and try to find excuses or blame other people.  You can generate a big list on both sides of the political spectrum that fall into that pattern. Precious few saints on either side of the aisle.

I full agree with you on this.  Trump could have and should have come out and tweeted something like:  I apologize for the misunderstanding. I ment no disrespect to you or your family. Your Husband is an American Hero.

But Trump hasn't the foggiest idea how to be the better man in any case. Not a damn clue.

[+OverSword]

13 hours ago, third_eye said:

I dunno man ... sometimes I do think that Obama is shoved up the wrong ends pretty unfairly ...
 

• USA Today link

IMO if you can't negotiate across the political aisle you are not a good leader.  He absolutely refused any bi-partisanship, thus poor leader.  A leader is supposed to get people working together and he did not even try.  It was always his way or the highway. I'll be willing to bet the only president worse than Obama in recent history will be Trump since not even the republicans seem to be willing to work with him.  Time will tell, but in 20 years (or less) the only accomplishment of note by Obama will be that he was the first black president of the USA.

[SHaYap]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

IMO if you can't negotiate across the political aisle you are not a good leader.  He absolutely refused any bi-partisanship, thus poor leader.  A leader is supposed to get people working together and he did not even try.  It was always his way or the highway. I'll be willing to bet the only president worse than Obama in recent history will be Trump since not even the republicans seem to be willing to work with him.  Time will tell, but in 20 years (or less) the only accomplishment of note by Obama will be that he was the first black president of the USA.

Can't say I agree entirely or wholeheartedly on what you are saying here, like Obama always said, its a two way street, what he was facing was more than merely 'partisanship' At least that's the way it seems to be from the outside, anyhow, that's all previous and for the time being, I guess what we do agree on somewhat right here is Trump having little to no chance of awesomeness by the way he's been going at it ... on the other hand Obama is getting his credit due from hindsight if nothing else ...

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Obama Approval Index History - Rasmussen Reports™

www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/.../obama.../obama_approval_index_histo...

Obama Approval Index History. Date. Approval Index. Strongly Approve. Strongly Disapprove. Total Approve. Total Disapprove. 17-Jan-17. +12. 41%. 29%. 62%.

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[+OverSword]

3 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Can't say I agree entirely or wholeheartedly on what you are saying here, like Obama always said, its a two way street, what he was facing was more than merely 'partisanship' At least that's the way it seems to be from the outside, anyhow, that's all previous and for the time being, I guess what we do agree on somewhat right here is Trump having little to no chance of awesomeness by the way he's been going at it ... on the other hand Obama is getting his credit due from hindsight if nothing else ...

 

Well I don't know what approval ratings say about accomplishments, which were basically none unless you want to count doing absolutely nothing to stop our debt hemorrhaging (actually everything he did opened the wound further).  I think that the Nobel Prize that he was awarded before he did anything (and of course did nothing to earn later) is a very good symbol of Obama's terms in office.  Were you on the committee that awarded him the prize perhaps? (JK, you know I love you man )

[SHaYap]

Just now, OverSword said:

Well I don't know what approval ratings say about accomplishments, which were basically none unless you want to count doing absolutely nothing to stop our debt hemorrhaging (actually everything he did opened the wound further).  I think that the Nobel Prize that he was awarded before he did anything (and of course did nothing to earn later) is a very good symbol of Obama's terms in office.  Were you on the committee that awarded him the prize perhaps? (JK, you know I love you man )

{{{Man hug}}}

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Not much of an Obama fan or the other way, just a curious observer by and by. Frankly its just that brand of vitriol that became the fad and began to sprout by way of dubya's time and deeds that puzzles me. Makes me wonder how far off that edge of sanity is the political factions willing to stretch over reaching out at nothing.

I mean, just when everyone thought Romney's 2012 run was bad for the GOP ... not speaking as a Blue or (Dem) mind you, the last thing I wanna do is to stick my nose or toss in my lot into this partisanship divide, just sayin'

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[Tatetopa]

21 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

If this was a normal event, I would say that after the sting of the moment passed and he realized that perhaps he didn’t say things in the best way (there was nothing wrong with what he said) he would have been in a better position to concede that he did make a mistake but that isn’t what happened.  He was callously attacked by someone that should have kept her nose out of it.  Rep Wilson should have quietly gone to the President and told him that she thought that he hadn’t expressed himself very well and that it might be a good idea to make a private followup call.  But that’s not what she did.  She stirred things up making herself look like an idiot by plastering her face all over the media with that “look at me, see what I just did”. 

Yes RavenHawk, this was half of my point, there are plenty of examples on both sides.

The other half of my point is that a man or woman is only responsible for their own actions; not what the world does to them, not what other people do to them.  You are responsible for how you behave in every situation, normal or otherwise.   When you start blaming other people or circumstances for how you respond, you are denying your power and responsibility as a human being to behave according to your own principles.  Doesn't mean you wont make mistakes or have regrets, just that you own them.

I think Harry Truman said, "The buck stops here." A sense of responsibility might be a good quality in a leader. 

[Golden Duck]

On 10/20/2017 at 5:13 PM, third_eye said:

Sometime I do wonder ...

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[00.00:47]

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LOL...profits v earnings