Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

Breaking News..... Spain Breaks Up !


RoofGardener

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, stevewinn said:

It seems from reports Ex-Catalan President, Carles Puigdemont has fled to Belgium.

It seems that the Spanish Prosecutor is cooking up some charges against him, to prevent him standing in new Elections perhaps.

Edited by A rather obscure Bassoon
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, A rather obscure Bassoon said:

It seems that the Spanish Prosecutor is cooking up some charges against him, to prevent him standing in new Elections perhaps.

As soon as the chargers where announced Carles Puigdemont and his team done a runner, i thought they where meant to be leaders. im never surprised by these so called leaders driven by such deep moral conviction only for them to take flight when it comes time to face the music.

Edited by stevewinn
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

there are few countries that broke off in last few decades, catalonians need to see how those are doing.  i'm pretty sure as far as ordinary people are concerned, nothing will get better for them, prices will go up, so will taxes. now that the local gvmnt will have no over site, they will abuse their power a lot more. that is assuming it wont lead to war, just look how good transnistra, lugansk, and donetck republic do,   they do not do good. what makes Catalonians think it will be different for them?

Edited by aztek
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, stevewinn said:

As soon as the chargers where announced Carles Puigdemont and his team done a runner, i thought they where meant to be leaders. im never surprised by these so called leaders driven by such deep moral conviction only for them to take flight when it comes time to face the music.

A regime that sent soldiers who were happy to beat up grannies in order to prevent a vote is said to be getting ready to take you down, what do you do? Stand and fight or run and fight at a time of your own choosing in a forum you can control?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spanish prosecutor have applied for a European Arrest warrant for Carles Puigdemont and 11 of his officials. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Spanish prosecutor have applied for a European Arrest warrant for Carles Puigdemont and 11 of his officials. 

On what grounds?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

On what grounds?

Sedition, rebellion, misuse of government funds I think are the formal names of the charges

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 Catalan ministers arrested and it now follows a European arrest warrant will be issued for Carles Puigdemont. Their all banged to rights, quite what they thought would happen by breaking the Law and unilaterally declaring independence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

8 Catalan ministers arrested and it now follows a European arrest warrant will be issued for Carles Puigdemont. Their all banged to rights, quite what they thought would happen by breaking the Law and unilaterally declaring independence.

so Spain's dictator is going to get away with sending in the stormtroopers to maintain Order and you seem pleased, because Order will be maintained? I never knew you were such an advocate of heavy handed authoritarianism. Let's just hope Brussels doesn't decide to try the same tactics, eh.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Surely the story here is the Spanish governments response to the referendum?  The charges, are an aside really, and I imagine any decent lawyer will tie up the process for years on those charges.

Rebellion is a stretch, the dictionary defines rebellion as: 'an act of armed resistance to an established government or leader'.

Sedition may be a little harder to shake off, but then, given that there is absolutely no mechanic within the Spanish constitution, or any other European country (excluding Britain) to allow a region to gain independence you could argue that even an informal dialogue with citizens about independence would constitute sedition.

As for misuse of government funds, if it could be argued that the Catalan leaders were expressing the will of the people, then I would suggest the use of funds were spent accordingly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

so Spain's dictator is going to get away with sending in the stormtroopers to maintain Order and you seem pleased, because Order will be maintained? I never knew you were such an advocate of heavy handed authoritarianism. Let's just hope Brussels doesn't decide to try the same tactics, eh.

Spain is Spain, I called it in my very first reply on page 1 what would result, and since then its just be unfolding,. - The Catalan Parliament acted outside of its powers and in the process broke the Law/constitution, there is a inherent danger if actions are not taken. surely you must see that?

im not surprised by events, besides the actions of the Police at the polling stations early on in the saga what exactly as happened for you to use such words as dictator or storm troopers?  don't tell me you condone the actions taken by the Catalan leaders? they as elected Politicians had a responsibility to act within the law the moment they stepped beyond that - it goes without saying they broke the law and Spain is no backwater dictatorship. i'd even go as far and state that apart from the scenes witnessed at the polling station Spain as responded to the problem in the same fashion you'd expect from every western democracy.

This isn't no popular uprising of a peoples but is in fact the actions of rouge politicians.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem is, there are no options for regions in Europe to express the will to become independent.  And let’s be clear here this was a referendum not a Declaration of Independence.

the declaration came after the government had responded in excess.

so the question is, should regions have right to potentially declare independence, or once a nation is formed are the only routes to independence armed conflict?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Grey Area said:

so the question is, should regions have right to potentially declare independence, or once a nation is formed are the only routes to independence armed conflict?

It's a tough question.

If a region declares itself independent, it isn't just about the citizens of that region, it affects the prosperity of the whole nation. Shouldn't a vote therefore be put to the entire nation?

From another perspective, would Europe be better or worse if the continent broke into a multitude of disparate provinces? I'm not sold on globalization or EU ambitions, but neither do I believe increasingly smaller and weaker states would be a good thing. You only need to look to history to imagine how long it would be before larger, more powerful nations start picking off pieces for themselves.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, LV-426 said:

If a region declares itself independent, it isn't just about the citizens of that region, it affects the prosperity of the whole nation. Shouldn't a vote therefore be put to the entire nation?

So for example, should the whole population of the UK have been offered a vote on whether Scotland should be independent? Or even the entire EU be offered a vote on whether the Uk should be allowed to disassociate? 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Grey Area said:

The problem is, there are no options for regions in Europe to express the will to become independent.  And let’s be clear here this was a referendum not a Declaration of Independence.

the declaration came after the government had responded in excess.

so the question is, should regions have right to potentially declare independence, or once a nation is formed are the only routes to independence armed conflict?

There are options, take Catalonia itself it had been granted more autonomy than any other region all they had to do was stick to the political path they'd been happily walking for years eventually Madrid would've had to put the Independence issue to bed by granting a Referendum in much the same way the UK did with Scotland. Its a political problem with a political solution. I think even with this referendum if Madrid would've granted a referendum the Catalan government would have lost the vote in the same way the SNP did on the Scottish Referendum. But Madrid panicked coupled with their unique political culture it was only going to go one way. @Manfred von Dreidecker But thank god for events like these it highlights to the people back home who decry British politics just how grown up our democracy and politics is.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

So for example, should the whole population of the UK have been offered a vote on whether Scotland should be independent? Or even the entire EU be offered a vote on whether the Uk should be allowed to disassociate? 

Well, if Brussels had it's way.. then... YES :P 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

So for example, should the whole population of the UK have been offered a vote on whether Scotland should be independent? Or even the entire EU be offered a vote on whether the Uk should be allowed to disassociate? 

I'm going to be cheeky on this one, and throw the question back to you :P

There were calls after Brexit, albeit somewhat unrealistic, for London to become a seperate state. Had this had more momentum, do you think London should have had the right to an independence vote without the rest of Britain having a say?

It's worth bearing in mind when answering this that London's prosperity has largely - certainly historically - been borne on the back of the rest of the nation.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, if Brussels had it's way.. then... YES :P 

If Brussels had its way, just thinking about independence would be illegal.  If independence were a viable option Flanders would be one of the first to go

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

I'm going to be cheeky on this one, and throw the question back to you :P

There were calls after Brexit, albeit somewhat unrealistic, for London to become a seperate state. Had this had more momentum, do you think London should have had the right to an independence vote without the rest of Britain having a say?

It's worth bearing in mind when answering this that London's prosperity has largely - certainly historically - been borne on the back of the rest of the nation.

By all means let them. Everything that Government does is designed first and foremost with London in mind (like all this stuff about "Heathrow must be allowed to have yet another runway, because London's future as an Global Financial Powerhouse depends in it". And how the 2012 Olympics weren't UK 2012, they were London 2012. Even though the sailing part of it was held round my way, it was still advertised as "London 2012".) Perhaps better than it splitting off into an independent city state would be for Government to disperse itself away from London, to Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Newcastle etc. And the same goes for the Media. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alternatively, LET it become a city-state. 

And then perhaps we could get The Donald to build a Beautiful Wall around it :D 

The brilliant part is that the Londoners would probably happily pay for it :P 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bring back the historical city-states

Venice, Krakow, Geneva, etc

And party like it is 1399! :sk

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

By all means let them. Everything that Government does is designed first and foremost with London in mind (like all this stuff about "Heathrow must be allowed to have yet another runway, because London's future as an Global Financial Powerhouse depends in it". And how the 2012 Olympics weren't UK 2012, they were London 2012. Even though the sailing part of it was held round my way, it was still advertised as "London 2012".) Perhaps better than it splitting off into an independent city state would be for Government to disperse itself away from London, to Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Newcastle etc. And the same goes for the Media. 

Home rule for Durham and stuff London ,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, The Russian Hare said:

Bring back the historical city-states

Venice, Krakow, Geneva, etc

And party like it is 1399! :sk

Krakow was a city state?

Does Monoaco qualify as a city state?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

By all means let them. Everything that Government does is designed first and foremost with London in mind (like all this stuff about "Heathrow must be allowed to have yet another runway, because London's future as an Global Financial Powerhouse depends in it". And how the 2012 Olympics weren't UK 2012, they were London 2012. Even though the sailing part of it was held round my way, it was still advertised as "London 2012".) Perhaps better than it splitting off into an independent city state would be for Government to disperse itself away from London, to Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, Newcastle etc. And the same goes for the Media. 

Well, to be fair, every single Olympics has been promoted around a city. It was Los Angeles 1984 not United States 1984, Sydney 2000 not Australia 2000, etc. That's the way the Games have always been promoted.

As a Northener, would I like to see more devolution of power from London? Sure. I'm under no illusion what would happen though. The major cities would take the lion's share of the wealth, while smaller cities and towns would fight over the scraps. Each region would be a microcosm of the current national picture. In fact, to a lesser degree they already are.

There has to be a realistic view of the modern world too. Historically, London relied more on goods produced in the rest of Britain for it's wealth; mining, farming, textiles, etc. Today it's built on banking and technology. Who would fare worse should London become independent, London or the rest of us? If the latter, it brings us right back to the question of whether a region should be able to unilaterally declare itself independent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, LV-426 said:

There has to be a realistic view of the modern world too. Historically, London relied more on goods produced in the rest of Britain for it's wealth; mining, farming, textiles, etc. Today it's built on banking and technology. Who would fare worse should London become independent, London or the rest of us? If the latter, it brings us right back to the question of whether a region should be able to unilaterally declare itself independent.

How much of this banking business, all this Global Financial Powerhouse stuff, is actually for the benefit of the Uk at all? It's all about the Global Economy isn't it. I wonder how much the UK economy actually sees from any of it? I bet most of it goes straight back to New York where the head office invariably is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.