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Enough objective proof for you?


Will Due

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1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

If you were sold a promise, do you not expect to be delivered?

Promise can't be delivered if the door is kept closed.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Do you think God communicates to you from within what you should do at any given moment?

Let me put it another way. 

When you have a strong urge to excersise your will in accordance with your desire, do you ever sense an equally strong counter urge to do something else you really don't want to do instead?

 

I go to work everyday - even though I don't want to.  I do it because I consider it the right thing to do, as it take money to get by in this crazy world.  I want to answer your question properly, but I don't really understand what you're asking me.

Do I think God communicates to me from within what I should do at any given moment?  I honestly don't know.  I'm not sure how it's going to answer my question about objective proof that God lives in me.....but I'll play along as best I can.....for a time.  

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1 minute ago, Guyver said:

I go to work everyday - even though I don't want to.  I do it because I consider it the right thing to do, as it take money to get by in this crazy world.  I want to answer your question properly, but I don't really understand what you're asking me.

Do I think God communicates to me from within what I should do at any given moment?  I honestly don't know.  I'm not sure how it's going to answer my question about objective proof that God lives in me.....but I'll play along as best I can.....for a time.  

If God is within, and he's there to participate with you, don't you think you would be able to test that this is true?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Will Due said:

If God is within, and he's there to participate with you, don't you think you would be able to test that this is true?

 

 

Yes.  

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2 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Yes.  

Then communicate with him and tell him you sincerely want to know how to do that.

 

 

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Objective Proof - (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

There are many things we know objectively, due to experience that is not influenced much by our emotions.  Most of us know objectively, the existence of things like love, attraction, devotion, desire, hunger, affection.

We know the physical sensation of loving, touching, squeezing.....and most of us like it.  We have experienced it, and it is pleasant.  And, we know unpleasant things in the same way; fear, loss, pain, etc.  These affect us, and we know them.

Then, we know love, not the physical eros kind....but the giving, selfless kind.  But, where do our experiences with God fit in?  Do we actually experience God, or do we just think we do?  This is really the point I'm getting at.

Crazy people hear voices, and some think it's God or the Devil talking to them.  It may even seem real in their mind.  

 

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1 minute ago, Will Due said:

Then communicate with him and tell him you sincerely want to know how to do that.

OK.  Done that a few hundred/thousand times.  Anyway, have to go now.  Peace, and I'll read later.  

PS.  Do you remember the Footprints poem/devotional?  I think it's commonly known.  I believe that.  I do believe that at the times I could not carry myself, God carried me.  But, when a skeptical person asks....."How do you know you didn't just carry yourself and think it was God carrying you?"

I find that difficult to answer.  

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28 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Do we actually experience God, or do we just think we do? 

I would say that if you only think that you've had an experience with God, then most likely you haven't. 

When you've actually had an experience with God, you know that you have.

The reason I've come to know that I've had an experience like this, is because of the outcome. When I willingly deferred to what I sensed within as a communication to do what I did not want to do, but knew I was being guided towards doing a better thing. With all my heart, I would fight the urge to submit my will to this other will. But when I relented and followed, good things happened.

Doing this once, as a stand alone, is analogous to making a bet you might say (not a good way of putting it) but it's in the long haul that things become strong.

Doing three sets of bench presses isn't going to make you look like Arnold.

Repetition is key.

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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50 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Promise can't be delivered if the door is kept closed.

 

 

Promise can't be made if no one's at the door.

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9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Promise can't be made if no one's at the door.

True.

 

 

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But if someone is at the door usually, you go and open it.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Will Due said:

I would say that if you only think that you've had an experience with God, then most likely you haven't. 

When you've actually had an experience with God, you know that you have.

The reason I've come to know that I've had an experience like this, is because of the outcome. When I willingly deferred to what I sensed within as a communication to do what I did not want to do, but knew I was being guided towards doing a better thing. With all my heart, I would fight the urge to submit my will to this other will. But when I relented and followed, good things happened.

Doing this once, as a stand alone, is analogous to making a bet you might say (not a good way of putting it) but it's in the long haul that things become strong.

Doing three sets of bench presses isn't going to make you look like Arnold.

Repetition is key.

 

 

How do you distinguish you know from you think?

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2 hours ago, Guyver said:

Objective Proof - (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

There are many things we know objectively, due to experience that is not influenced much by our emotions.  Most of us know objectively, the existence of things like love, attraction, devotion, desire, hunger, affection.

We know the physical sensation of loving, touching, squeezing.....and most of us like it.  We have experienced it, and it is pleasant.  And, we know unpleasant things in the same way; fear, loss, pain, etc.  These affect us, and we know them.

Then, we know love, not the physical eros kind....but the giving, selfless kind.  But, where do our experiences with God fit in?  Do we actually experience God, or do we just think we do?  This is really the point I'm getting at.

Crazy people hear voices, and some think it's God or the Devil talking to them.  It may even seem real in their mind.  

 

How does one tell the difference between their voice and another voice inside the same head?

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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I, myself, have never thought I heard the voice of God in my head, although I often have prayed for wisdom or guidance. What words I imagine I hear are in my own voice or the voice of a loved one, mother or father or other relative or acquaintance, usually the dearly departed. I pray for direction and the impetus to what  I already know to do, a swift kick when I hesitate or tarry and procrastinate. It's all in my head, whatever it may be whether divine inspiration or the summation and literation of my own intellect. Sometimes, I look at the works of my own hand or what has flowed out from my pen and it is like the product of a stranger and I can't believe it is of my own creation. Is it God within, the comforter that abides with us, or do we lend wings to our on conceptions and rise above the false limitations we place upon ourselves? I truly can not say because I, honestly, do not know.

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I would argue that in the biblical narrative WE created the mess by simply disobeying god. MAking a wrong choice    If you  wish to argue that allowing humans free will was an error then so be it, but i think it would have been more evil to create intelligent beings with no freedom of thought or action.  ANd anyway we do not live in a world where we have no free will, so there was no point constructing a story where we don't 

I think that narrative is simply wrong. Humans chose knowledge instead of ignorant bliss, and were expelled from 'heaven' as a result. The Gnostics believed that the knowledge of our true divine origin, or gnosis was smuggled into the garden by either the Snake (representing the Divine being Sophia) or transmitted to Eve secretly, who in turn awakened Adam from his slumber. The Demiurge Yahweh and the other angelic snollygusters were angry and jaleous as a result and therefore threw mankind into a life of toil and great distraction in the material world.

Edited by TruthSeeker_
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1 hour ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

I think that narrative is simply wrong. Humans chose knowledge instead of ignorant bliss, and were expelled from 'heaven' as a result. The Gnostics believed that the knowledge of our true divine origin, or gnosis was smuggled into the garden by either the Snake (representing the Divine being Sophia) or transmitted to Eve secretly, who in turn awakened Adam from his slumber. The Demiurge Yahweh and the other angelic snollygusters were angry and jaleous as a result and therefore threw mankind into a life of toil and great distraction in the material world.

I think of it more as a myth that is constructed to lead us to gnosis that we are more than our physical selves, and that there is more than this imperfect world...and perhaps even that there may exist forces that would rather we remained ignorant of that. 

But I also think the myth is a litmus test of sorts. 

Some people see the ignorance as bliss and that beings should wallow in it and never question. 

Other people simply see it differently. 

Edited by ChaosRose
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7 hours ago, Sherapy said:

How do you distinguish you know from you think?

Just like everything else.

Repetition. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I pray for direction and the impetus to what I already know to do, a swift kick when I hesitate or tarry and procrastinate. 

This is how it works for me too. I already know what to do. And I learn when I hesitate or act on what I already know because of the results. 

Most of the time I don't even have to pray for the knowledge of what to do. It's inherently known. As I get older and the less I procrastinate, the more automatic it becomes. There isn't a voice that I hear, it's just a knowing that occurs, and I think everybody experiences this too. Already knowing what to do.

I can't explain this except to say that it comes about because God does literally dwell within me, like he does with everyone, and depending on the degree of my sincerity to follow him, I avoid the "swift kick" when I hesitate.

The more I repeat this, acting on what I know, the more I recognize that it is God who is guiding me. The more I know.

What this boils down to is the totality of what I think religion really is. Action, based on knowledge, that comes from God within. It's where the rubber hits the road.

Studying religion can be a distraction, if it causes procrastination.

I've learned to stop hesitating and just do it without thinking about it.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Sherapy said:

How does one tell the difference between their voice and another voice inside the same head?

 

 

Good question.  Isn't every voice inside your head, your own head?  Things we hear are external, and they enter us through our ears, things we think are internal.....of the mind.  So, is it possible to think we're hearing voices?  Yes....I think so.  And it is possible to actually hear the voices as well.....and maybe it's these rare voices that originate neither from the physical or the mental? IDK.  

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16 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

I think that narrative is simply wrong. Humans chose knowledge instead of ignorant bliss, and were expelled from 'heaven' as a result. The Gnostics believed that the knowledge of our true divine origin, or gnosis was smuggled into the garden by either the Snake (representing the Divine being Sophia) or transmitted to Eve secretly, who in turn awakened Adam from his slumber. The Demiurge Yahweh and the other angelic snollygusters were angry and jaleous as a result and therefore threw mankind into a life of toil and great distraction in the material world.

Then clearly they were wrong to do so, because the condition of the world we live in according to that version comes from placing knowledge above spiritual wisdom.

I've said before that in my opinion genesis was written as an allegorical account by humans trying to understand the duality of their nature and the reality of  their connection to the world around them. Specifically they were in the process of transiting from a life based on total immersion to, and attachment with, the spiritual awareness of everything around them required to survive when dependent on nature, to a life where this was being replaced by the importance of knowledge  as the y developed agriculture, irrigation and  animal husbandry 

The first world was comparatively idyllic and required little effort for survival although the re were few material possessions and life was totally dependent on nature/god 

In the second world  man was taking control of nature and insulating himself from it's power and vagaries,  and thus  had less need to worship or fear it.  Using basic knowledge and science, they could control their lives and environment and become less dependent on the spirits of nature, even building up surpluses of food for lean times.

   However they were still at the mercy of so many unknowns that some form of god/worship was  still essential. Hence the conflict and dichotomy found in genesis When we abandon our old gods, there are always consequences, including costs and benefits.    

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On 2017-11-14 at 1:26 AM, ChaosRose said:

I think of it more as a myth that is constructed to lead us to gnosis that we are more than our physical selves, and that there is more than this imperfect world...and perhaps even that there may exist forces that would rather we remained ignorant of that. 

But I also think the myth is a litmus test of sorts. 

Some people see the ignorance as bliss and that beings should wallow in it and never question. 

Other people simply see it differently. 

Reinterpreting everything, including reality, is what Gnostics do best.

Edited by TruthSeeker_
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