Historicity of Jesus

[Will Due]

@TruthSeeker_

Is this the new covenant you were referring to?

Quote

John 13:34  

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

 

 

 

[Only_]

9 hours ago, Will Due said:

Jesus gave us a new commandment at the Last Supper that supersedes everything, and everything that came before.

To love one another as he loves us.

Is this the new covenant you're speaking of TruthSeeker?

 

 

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:7-18 (NIV)

Edited October 15, 2017 by TruthSeeker_

[Adampadum123]

It would be nice to have proof that he existed it would certainly make the world a better place.but no body no evidence just story's 

[+DieChecker]

14 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

You're quoting the Old Testament.

But many Christians will claim that The new covenant throws out the baby with the bathwater. That's why it's new. It throws out the ten commandments and it throws out the rest of the Law of Moses also. That there is no OT law that NT Christians are bound to obey. The new covenant completely overrides and does away with the old. As a Gnostic Christian, I completely agree with that view.

I'd agree to a point. But, as Paul said, (paraphrased) Do what you think glorifies God. So, if you feel that eating bacon does nothing to block you off from God, then it is fine. Thus, to a degree, the OT laws have been broken, as they are no longer necessary to receive Grace, or for your Salvation. Jesus's sacrifice made things so much simpler.

Now does that mean Christians shouldn't follow OT laws at all? Nope. It means that they CAN follow OT laws, if it is glorifying to God, and does not hinder their relationship with God/Jesus/HolySpirit. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is a better guide to what is sinful, then a set of 3000 year old rules.

[Davros of Skaro]

On 10/14/2017 at 0:47 PM, TruthSeeker_ said:

You're quoting the Old Testament.

Lord Christ Jesus is the OT.

On 10/14/2017 at 0:47 PM, TruthSeeker_ said:

But many Christians will claim that The new covenant throws out the baby with the bathwater. That's why it's new. It throws out the ten commandments and it throws out the rest of the Law of Moses also. That there is no OT law that NT Christians are bound to obey. The new covenant completely overrides and does away with the old.

Leviticus 19:17-18

"17 You shall not hate in your heart anyone of your kin; you shall reprove your neighbor, or you will incur guilt yourself. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but  you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD."

On 10/14/2017 at 0:47 PM, TruthSeeker_ said:

As a Gnostic Christian, I completely agree with that view.

What are you going to be next?

A Gnostic Brony?

[Davros of Skaro]

On 10/14/2017 at 11:38 AM, Will Due said:

I would like to share something from the Urantia Book about what it says regarding the Gospel records as recorded in the Bible. 

Especially note worthy is the acknowledgement by the authors at the end of the quote.

You're doing Satan's work by continuing to put this book up as Gospel. You're creating nonbelief in the Lord by propping up the tongue of liars.

"The portion on the life of Jesus remains fairly true to the Bible stories of his life and teachings, except that in the Urantia Book Jesus was the most important spirit being in this universe who came to "Urantia" (Earth) to solidify his superior status, and the ideas of original sin or any need for Jesus to atone for human sins are rejected. In this, it departs from most Christian theology.

For whatever reason, Urantia had some popularity among some rock musicians in the 1970s, and influenced some of the albums by bands like Kansas and Spirit. Kerry Livgren of Kansas, who later became a born again evangelical, cites the Urantia Book as a way station between his previous agnosticism and his later evangelical Christianity and that he eventually came to reject the Urantia Book as a false portrayal of Christ.^[1]

The Urantia Book includes quite a bit of science woo from the 1930s presented as authoritative fact."

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book

 

[Davros of Skaro]

eight

"There is a missing piece: how much was HJJJ responsible for the earliest version of the legend? Beats me, but it could have begun as a story he told about himself to position himself as a bad boy. Then, maybe things got out of hand, or maybe things grew just as he intended. I don't know."

I say you know more than you're letting on.

I'm looking over things with a refreshed eye.... So soon, but no hurry...

[Truthseeker007]

I am an Ex-Christian and through my research I found the Bible Jesus is a composite of many characters such as Apollonius of Tyana, Krishna just to name a couple out of the vast number of savior heroes. It can even be found that the New Testament is assembled from patterns related to stories taken from earlier sources, such as Zoroastrian, Mithrain, Krishna, Buddhism, and Egyptian, and others. So to sum it up I don't believe the Bible Jesus actually existed but was based on a number of stories and heroes to make a superman type of character such as Jesus and whom many have actually turned into a God.

[Truthseeker007]

5 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

You're doing Satan's work by continuing to put this book up as Gospel. You're creating nonbelief in the Lord by propping up the tongue of liars.

"The portion on the life of Jesus remains fairly true to the Bible stories of his life and teachings, except that in the Urantia Book Jesus was the most important spirit being in this universe who came to "Urantia" (Earth) to solidify his superior status, and the ideas of original sin or any need for Jesus to atone for human sins are rejected. In this, it departs from most Christian theology.

For whatever reason, Urantia had some popularity among some rock musicians in the 1970s, and influenced some of the albums by bands like Kansas and Spirit. Kerry Livgren of Kansas, who later became a born again evangelical, cites the Urantia Book as a way station between his previous agnosticism and his later evangelical Christianity and that he eventually came to reject the Urantia Book as a false portrayal of Christ.^[1]

The Urantia Book includes quite a bit of science woo from the 1930s presented as authoritative fact."

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book

 

I find it funny that you are using rationalwiki when you are not very rational yourself.

[Davros of Skaro]

On 10/16/2017 at 9:57 AM, Truthseeker007 said:

I am an Ex-Christian and through my research I found the Bible Jesus is a composite of many characters such as Apollonius of Tyana, Krishna just to name a couple out of the vast number of savior heroes. It can even be found that the New Testament is assembled from patterns related to stories taken from earlier sources, such as Zoroastrian, Mithrain, Krishna, Buddhism, and Egyptian, and others. So to sum it up I don't believe the Bible Jesus actually existed but was based on a number of stories and heroes to make a superman type of character such as Jesus and whom many have actually turned into a God.

Yes. I made the same mistake looking at the pagan parallelisms when I started the research on Jesus.

On 10/16/2017 at 10:01 AM, Truthseeker007 said:

I find it funny that you are using rationalwiki when you are not very rational yourself.

Hey! What happens with the Demiurge stays with the Demiurge.

Besides if I was irrational? I would ignore facts to believe that an event portrayed as rare (when it's not) to confirm nonsense for comfort.

"This basic arrangement happened before — in September 1827, in September 1483, in September 1293, and in September 1056. These are all shown at the end of this post. I only searched back one thousand years, from 2017 to 1017 — there are undoubtedly other examples outside of that time period, and probably a couple examples that I missed within that time period."

"As it is, watching the heavens for signs of what is to come is a waste of time. And it is doubly a waste of time because “signs in the sky” appeal, for some reason, to all sorts of people out there — all of whom can use Stellarium to find this or that momentous “sign” signifying whatever they want to signify.

And that is why astronomers ignore the seemingly momentous celestial arrangement of September 23, 2017, and talk instead about black holes or whatnot"

http://earthsky.org/human-world/biblical-signs-in-the-sky-september-23-2017

[Truthseeker007]

13 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

Yes. I made the same mistake looking at the pagan parallelisms when I started the research on Jesus.

Hey! What happens with the Demiurge stays with the Demiurge.

Besides if I was irrational? I would ignore facts to believe that an event portrayed as rare (when it's not) to confirm nonsense for comfort.

"This basic arrangement happened before — in September 1827, in September 1483, in September 1293, and in September 1056. These are all shown at the end of this post. I only searched back one thousand years, from 2017 to 1017 — there are undoubtedly other examples outside of that time period, and probably a couple examples that I missed within that time period."

"As it is, watching the heavens for signs of what is to come is a waste of time. And it is doubly a waste of time because “signs in the sky” appeal, for some reason, to all sorts of people out there — all of whom can use Stellarium to find this or that momentous “sign” signifying whatever they want to signify.

And that is why astronomers ignore the seemingly momentous celestial arrangement of September 23, 2017, and talk instead about black holes or whatnot"

http://earthsky.org/human-world/biblical-signs-in-the-sky-september-23-2017

So what point are you trying to make?

[Davros of Skaro]

15 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

So what point are you trying to make?

Just the Word of Lord Christ Jesus. 

Mark 7:32-35

"32 They brought to him a deaf man who had an impediment in his speech; and they begged him to lay his hand on him. 33 He took him aside in private, away from the crowd, and put his fingers into his ears, and he spat and touched his tongue. 34 Then looking up to heaven, he sighed and said to him, "Ephphatha," that is, "Be opened." 35 And immediately his ears were opened, his tongue was released, and he spoke plainly."

Mark 8:25

"25 Then Jesus laid his hands on his eyes again; and he looked intently and his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly."

Mark 10:50-52

"50 So throwing off his cloak, he sprang up and came to Jesus. 51 Then Jesus said to him, "What do you want me to do for you?" The blind man said to him, "My teacher, let me see again." 52 Jesus said to him, "Go; your faith has made you well." Immediately he regained his sight and followed him on the way."

Isaiah 29:18-19

"18 On that day the deaf shall hear the words of a scroll, and out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind shall see. 19 The meek shall obtain fresh joy in the LORD, and the neediest people shall exult in the Holy One of Israel."

Isaiah 35:5-6a

"5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; 6 then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the speechless sing for joy."

[Truthseeker007]

3 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

Just the Word of Lord Christ Jesus. 

Mark 7:32-35

"32 They brought to him a deaf man who had an impediment in his speech; and they begged him to lay his hand on him. 33 He took him aside in private, away from the crowd, and put his fingers into his ears, and he spat and touched his tongue. 34 Then looking up to heaven, he sighed and said to him, "Ephphatha," that is, "Be opened." 35 And immediately his ears were opened, his tongue was released, and he spoke plainly."

Mark 8:25

"25 Then Jesus laid his hands on his eyes again; and he looked intently and his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly."

Mark 10:50-52

"50 So throwing off his cloak, he sprang up and came to Jesus. 51 Then Jesus said to him, "What do you want me to do for you?" The blind man said to him, "My teacher, let me see again." 52 Jesus said to him, "Go; your faith has made you well." Immediately he regained his sight and followed him on the way."

Isaiah 29:18-19

"18 On that day the deaf shall hear the words of a scroll, and out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind shall see. 19 The meek shall obtain fresh joy in the LORD, and the neediest people shall exult in the Holy One of Israel."

Isaiah 35:5-6a

"5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; 6 then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the speechless sing for joy."

Yea its obvious that you are religious. Although I like to study religions I don't subscribe to one. Although religions that people follow are interesting. Each one has a mind control program attached to it. Then the Elite use the religions to divide and conquer. You would be surprised at how the Jesus character of the Bible was creatied.

[Truthseeker007]

I would just like to add a little something I found about 10 years ago that actually made me start to think. I used to be a Christian from childhood up and I was actually having a debate with someone trying to prove that Jesus did exist and then I found this. It really changed what I thought and I actually had to rethink everything I believed. I did my own research on the matter after finding this link and read many books including Acharya S and David Icke. Also studying other religions for awhile. I will post the link and just a few small excerpts.

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/master_file/jesusmyth.htm

How the Jesus Myth was created
This Awareness wishes to remind you that the story of Jesus, the first written word, was that which was put down some 80 years after his existence on this plane; that It wishes also to inform you that the composite known as the entity Jesus was that which was put together from a variety of information. 

This Awareness indicates that essentially, under Constantine, the concept of the Catholic or Universal, (Catholic meaning Universal) religion, the official Roman religion, as that which was a composite of various religious writings which were brought together to form that which is known as the Christian religion. That many of the writings were assembled from various sources, and brought into, and comprised those books of the Bible.

 Even the New Testament is assembled from patterns related to stories taken from earlier sources, such as Zoroastrian, Mithrain, Krishna, Buddhism, and Egyptian, and others, in which many verses are literally paraphrasing earlier writings, and many of the stories attributed to the story of Jesus, were lifted directly out of these other writings. The story of Jesus at the well, as one which was taken from earlier writings. This Awareness indicates that it is of importance that entities realize the origins of the Bible did not come from the pen of God, but came from the earlier writings in different cultures and nations at the time these Hebrew priests put this work together. This Awareness indicates that these countries who were plagiarized then became labeled as heathen, - nations whose philosophies were heathenistic, but this was only after their stories had been stolen.

First of all, you have to realize that Jesus was a composite of different entities and the name was chosen several hundred years later at the Council of Nicea, wherein the entity Constantine ordered the various religious sects to come together and create a single religion for Rome, a Universal religion that incorporated all of the aspects of the various religions, so that all could accept and subscribe to it

This entity Apollonius of Tyana is the central figure of a certain religious order that was prevalent at that time in Rome and his life was incorporated into the Holy Roman religion or Catholic version of the Christian epic which became the official Roman religion in approximately 300 AD. 

This Awareness indicates that this energy of Apollonius was incorporated, there was also energies of several other spiritual leaders of Roman religious sects whose stories were also brought in and there were those spiritual personalities or deities from other Roman religious orders whose histories or religious myths came from other cultures. 

Krishna for example, of India, was one of the religious cults and groups in Rome, and his story was merged with that of Apollonius of Tyana. The story of Krishna as that entity who came into the earth born of a virgin and who attempted to save people from error and sin, but who was hanged for his efforts. 

This Awareness indicates that this was incorporated in the story of Jesus and the Apollonius story was also part of this story, and there were also entities whose religion was that of sun worshipping, wherein there was the sun and the 12 houses or signs, and these sun worshippers had their story of Jesus in which the sun god had 12 disciples and these 12 disciples of course reflected the 12 signs of those who were the sun worshippers in Rome. This was of course an astrological religion.

This Awareness indicates that the combination of the many different Roman religious orders or organizations, the different religious sects, forming a composite in which the central heroic character was the Son of God, having 12 disciples, being born of a virgin, whose intent and purpose was to help save mankind, and for his efforts, the entity was slain and put upon a cross; the entity also having certain miraculous powers, including that of those who can heal by touch, or raise from the dead or move into states of suspended animation, such as some of the masters of India have demonstrated in various times throughout history. 

 

[Only_]

On 2017-10-18 at 7:29 AM, Scudbuster said:

This kinda sums it all up rather nicely:

Or this:

[Davros of Skaro]

20 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

Yea its obvious that you are religious. Although I like to study religions I don't subscribe to one. Although religions that people follow are interesting. Each one has a mind control program attached to it. Then the Elite use the religions to divide and conquer. You would be surprised at how the Jesus character of the Bible was creatied.

Mark 15:6-15

"6 Now at the festival he used to release a prisoner for them, anyone for whom they asked. 7 Now a man called Barabbas was in prison with the rebels who had committed murder during the insurrection. 8 So the crowd came and began to ask Pilate to do for them according to his custom. 9 Then he answered them, "Do you want me to release for you the King of the Jews?" 10 For he realized that it was out of jealousy that the chief priests had handed him over. 11 But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have him release Barabbas for them instead. 12 Pilate spoke to them again, "Then what do you wish me to do with the man you call the King of the Jews?" 13 They shouted back, "Crucify him!" 14 Pilate asked them, "Why, what evil has he done?" But they shouted all the more, "Crucify him!" 15 So Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released Barabbas for them; and after flogging Jesus, he handed him over to be crucified."

Leviticus 16:7-10, :20-22

"7 He shall take the two goats and set them before the LORD at the entrance of the tent of meeting; 8 and Aaron shall cast lots on the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Azazel. 9 Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the LORD, and offer it as a sin offering; 10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel."

"20 When he has finished atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall present the live goat. 21 Then Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and sending it away into the wilderness by means of someone designated for the task. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a barren region; and the goat shall be set free in the wilderness." 

11 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

I would just like to add a little something I found about 10 years ago that actually made me start to think. I used to be a Christian from childhood up and I was actually having a debate with someone trying to prove that Jesus did exist and then I found this. It really changed what I thought and I actually had to rethink everything I believed. I did my own research on the matter after finding this link and read many books including Acharya S and David Icke.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Davros: I think that's a beautiful painting. As you and others here know, I tend to not read religious quotes, if intended toward me. And yes, that being in how I see things due to my secular childhood. (though I do read bible quotes, if for other reasons and even then not understanding them right away and other things I could explain for my reasons...etc.   blah blah...... and so on.) also... ( I do not make a habit of that)  But, I love great works, no matter the subject. I feel, the scene in the painting is a scene working up to his crucifixion. And the artist showed every nuance, right to the behaviors and feeling played out even in the distant people on balconies. 

Anyways, I wonder at the artist and when that was painted. (sorry to derail this a bit.  ) 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Stubbly_Dooright
To explain my unusual behavior....... again.

[Truthseeker007]

I agree the picture or painting is nice but if there was actually a Bible Jesus he would probably have been a dark-skinned man. But as the story goes he was born of a virgin so I guess he could have been any color.

The earliest visual depiction of Jesus is a painting found in 1921 on a wall of the baptismal chamber of the house-church at Dura Europos, Syria and dated around 235 A.D. The Jesus that is “Healing the Paralytic Man” (Mark 2:1-12) is short and dark-skinned with a small curly afro

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Jesus/Jesus.htm

 

[eight bits]

Stubbly

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eccehomo1.jpg

That's the info page. It's fairly well-known. The version of the trial is based on John (each Gospel tells its story a little differently).

Quote

To explain my unusual behavior....... again.

Lol.

[Davros of Skaro]

On 10/19/2017 at 5:43 PM, TruthSeeker_ said:

Or this:

                      Theism

You exist, therefore evidence of God. Also it makes the hard to understand things go away.

 

[Illyrius]

Atheists as well as some of the spiritualy oriented people claim that Jesus was not a historical figure. I wonder what arguments support this claim?

I will make some points which support that Jesus was indeed a historical figure, and I am also very intrigued to hear the other side of the story from people who think He was not a historical figure.

These are the some of the  points which support the thesis of Jesus being a historical figure:

1.      Virtually all New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is effectively certain.

2.      Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to the biblical Jesus in Books 18 and 20. The general scholarly view is that, while the longer passage, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus, which was then subject to Christian interpolation or forgery.

3.      The Roman historian Tacitus, in his Annals (written ca. AD 115), book 15, chapter 44.,^[37] describes Nero's scapegoating of the Christians following the Fire of Rome. He says that their founder was named Christus (the Christian title for Jesus), that he was executed under Pontius Pilate, and that the movement of his followers, initially checked, then broke out again in Judea and even in Rome itself.^[38]

[kmt_sesh]

Moderator's Note:

A new topic was begun that is basically the same as an existing topic, so I've merged the two into this one.

Posters, make sure to double-check the forum Indexes to make sure you're not doubling up on topics. Use the search feature if necessary.

[Illyrius]

On 03. 09. 2017. at 2:23 AM, ChaosRose said:

If you think in terms of the spiritual and eternal, it would make sense that the physical and material wouldn't really be very important.

Only on a first sight. But if you think of a manifested (physical realm) as a vehicle for expanding consciousness and gradual unfoldment of Divinity inherent in all manifested things then it has a whole new perspective to it.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Mr. Argon

[eight bits]

Greetings, Mr Argon

It's not an "atheist" or "spiritual" issue, it's a historical issue: did the person whom the seven widely accepted letters attributed to Paul refer to as "Jesus" really live or not? Other definitions of the person sought are possible, but that's a convenient short one.

The answer is the same for everybody. What somebody believes about gods or spirituality has nothing to do with it.

Your points, in brief:

1. Personal opinion formed two thousand years after the fact based on reading story books isn't evidence. The plural of personal opinion isn't evidence, either.

2. What we observe in the received Josephus "testimony" is a forgery. Take any forgery whatsoever, remove the forger's mistakes, and what's left is mistake-free. So what? If there was anything there originally, it's likely to have been a brief recital about what Christians believed in 93 CE, when the Antiquities was written.

Late first century Christians may well have believed that there was a Jesus who died two generations before. After all, they were still seeing him well into the second century and exorcists who used the name of Jesus were very effective.

The other mention is in connection with James, identified as the brother of someone named Jesus. In our received texts, the someone is "called Christ." The "authentication" is Origen's statement that he read it. His statement gets everything else about the passage wrong. So, no, as a matter of fact Origen didn't read what he said he read. Eusebius assures us, however, that he got the two or three magic words right, "called Christ." Uh huh.

3. Yes, Tacitus (assuming he actually wrote any of that) described what Christians in the early second century believed about what had happened three generations before.

Do we ever get any evidence that this guy actually lived? Or is just people one generation, two generations and three generations later still saw him now and then, and exorcists found his name effective against demons? Oh, and people 60+ generations later read about him, and believe what they read. Mustn't forget them.

[Davros of Skaro]

9 hours ago, Mr. Argon said:

Atheists as well as some of the spiritualy oriented people claim that Jesus was not a historical figure. I wonder what arguments support this claim?

 

I will make some points which support that Jesus was indeed a historical figure, and I am also very intrigued to hear the other side of the story from people who think He was not a historical figure.

Here's some advice to check out:

How to Successfully Argue Jesus Existed (or Anything Else in the World)

"In conjunction with my Critical Thinking course this month, and in light of a number of casual debates I’ve been in lately, I’ve drawn up this twelve step advice, which actually applies to all arguments for any conclusions in any subject whatever. But I’ll use defending the historicity of Jesus as the key example. The first rule is pretty obvious…"

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13352

 

9 hours ago, Mr. Argon said:

 

These are the some of the  points which support the thesis of Jesus being a historical figure:

 

1.      Virtually all New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is effectively certain.

Have you checked their methods?

One argument this so called "consensus" uses is the "criterion of embarrassment".

They say Jesus's crucifixion is too humiliating for people to use as a religion. Therefore it's true.

This is fallacious. There's been an ancient Goddess  (Inanna) worshiped where she's slowly stripped naked, killed, and hung on a hook. There was a God (Attis) who was castrated. It was a common theme for a deity to go through a struggle, or passion.

Btw... I only use Wiki for making  minor points only out of convenience. 

9 hours ago, Mr. Argon said:

2.      Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to the biblical Jesus in Books 18 and 20. The general scholarly view is that, while the longer passage, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus, which was then subject to Christian interpolation or forgery.

Read this:

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/4391

And this:

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/7437

9 hours ago, Mr. Argon said:

3.      The Roman historian Tacitus, in his Annals (written ca. AD 115), book 15, chapter 44.,^[37] describes Nero's scapegoating of the Christians following the Fire of Rome. He says that their founder was named Christus (the Christian title for Jesus), that he was executed under Pontius Pilate, and that the movement of his followers, initially checked, then broke out again in Judea and even in Rome itself.^[38]

 

This is evidence of Christians, and what they believed. Nobody doubts the existence of Christians believing Jesus crucified. 

I will forego the suspicious thing known about this passage.