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Physics, the Bible and the parting of the Red Sea

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Farmer77
27 minutes ago, and then said:

Indoctrination sounds like a kind of forceful teaching and demand that a doctrine be followed.  I keep hearing about such churches but I've never seen or heard of one and I've lived in the deepest part of the heart of the Bible belt.  Can you give an example of what you're talking about?  As in, more than a single instance?

Well I can give all kinds of anecdotes from my personal life which spanned 30 some years of religious duty from small 100 member churches to mega 10k member churches.

Forced to attend church, forced to attend church camps , forced to attend protests at abortion clinics while in elementary school, hell as a young kid at one point the pastor of a church we were attending decided parents should burn all their kids Star Wars paraphernalia because "the force" was too much like magic. Oh and forget about Halloween - trick or treating is for the devil ...hell fast forward 30 years and upon finding out I had MS my mother - after praying with her church group - told me I was sick because I had unrepented sin and had allowed a demon to enter me. And don't get me going on their reaction to me using medicinal marijuana. 

But really the indoctrination comes from the simple things like daily reminders that non Christians are evil,  that ONLY Christians are good, that you're evil for having normal HEALTHY thoughts, that you aren't good enough so you better grovel to a higher power to make you better. That everyone is the enemy 

Don't get me wrong, I tried for years into my adulthood to live the Christian life so much of it is on me. It took an especially obnoxious Christmas eve special at one of the local (mega) churches to push me over the edge. They actually did a song calling gay people fools (literally used that term as if the bible doesn't explicitly say DONT DO THAT) and spent the vast majority of the time waxing on about the non existent "War on christmas'" and in a nice Christmas eve childrens style sing song explained to all the kids why saying happy holidays meant you were evil and trying to undermine god. It was then that I knew the church was not a healthy environment for my children. I actually snapped a little there, on my way out the door I passed the greeters and said HAPPY HOLIDAYS at the top of my voice, a minor little act of rebellion to be sure but the look on those folks face was priceless. 

 

Edited by Farmer77
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and then

What you seem to be saying is that you've judged all Christian churches based on personal anecdotal evidence.  Would you be confident in making such a broad judgment about a scientific postulation?  I'm just giving you something to chew on.  If I had experienced what you have, I might well have soured on the idea of faith as well.  The worst I've experienced was the plain, garden-variety hypocrite.  I just didn't use that to form the opinion that all or even most of the rest of church-goers were equally hypocritical.  Anyone that is older than 30 should easily be able to remember that saying "Merry Christmas"  was totally acceptable.  Even Jews and Muslims that were greeted in such a way at that season of the year they made no fuss about it because they realized that it was a symbol of goodwill, not prejudice.   Rlyeh makes the statement that Christian belief isn't under pressure/attack today and all I can do is gape.  At this particular moment, it isn't yet illegal to say Merry Christmas but if some Atheist groups had their way - based on all the litigation we've seen, it WOULD be.  If he wants to be legalistic about it that's cool.  I wonder if he'd stand and defend the right to freedom of worship if a Congress or USSC justice decided to rule/ legislate that mentioning Christmas or even naming Christ in public, was illegal?  How about you?  Would that be cause for you to stand and speak up on behalf of Christians?  I ask this because I truly believe that I will see such things within my remaining lifetime.

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Farmer77
20 minutes ago, and then said:

What you seem to be saying is that you've judged all Christian churches based on personal anecdotal evidence

 No not really. Sure my personal anecdotes helped me to form my opinion but completely separate from that I would say that anything which promotes xenophobia, bigotry and lowered self worth is unhealthy and it is those thought patterns that I was referring to when I said something along the lines of the majority of the nation being on some level of recovery from the indoctrination. 

 

20 minutes ago, and then said:

The worst I've experienced was the plain, garden-variety hypocrite.

 I didn't even mention the child molesting preacher who ran a "Christian" day care at his home. 

 

20 minutes ago, and then said:

Anyone that is older than 30 should easily be able to remember that saying "Merry Christmas"  was totally acceptable. 

For the VAST majority It still is totally acceptable, what has changed is that it is now also just as acceptable to say happy holidays. I think a lot of the "War on Christmas " hype is really just a reaction by Christians to becoming a smaller minority. 

 

20 minutes ago, and then said:

I wonder if he'd stand and defend the right to freedom of worship if a Congress or USSC justice decided to rule/ legislate that mentioning Christmas or even naming Christ in public, was illegal?  How about you?  Would that be cause for you to stand and speak up on behalf of Christians?  I ask this because I truly believe that I will see such things within my remaining lifetime.

I really don't think you will see that happen in your lifetime but of course I absolutely would stand up for the right for Christians to worship as they see fit. 

Ive been trying to think of any legislation I would support regarding religion and the only thing I could think of for sure is removing the tax exempt status from churches.

A certain part of me says I would support a ban on the ultra religious from becoming politicians but I'm not sure and that's a pretty hard thing to evaluate. 

 

 

Edited by Farmer77
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Dumbledore the Awesome
7 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

A certain part of me says I would support a ban on the ultra religious from becoming politicians but I'm not sure and that's a pretty hard thing to evaluate. 

I've got an  idea, why not offer anyone running for political office who claims to be a Christian a few quotes from Jesus and see what they think of them and if they recognize them. "Blessed are the peacemakers? Blessed are the meek? What the hell is this, some kinda goddam commie? And what's all this stuff about rich men and camels? Who is this wierdo?" 

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Golden Duck
12 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

...why not offer anyone running for political office who claims to be a Christian a few quotes ... Blessed are the meek? ...

Anyone willing to aspire to the ideal of leadership as an act of service and practised humility - or meekness - would be ideally suited for public office and representing the people.

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Piney
9 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

Anyone willing to aspire to the ideal of leadership as an act of service and practised humility - or meekness - would be ideally suited for public office and representing the people.

"Power doesn't corrupt. It attracts the corruptible. It;s magnetic to pathological personalities and they are the only ones who seek it."

Frank Herbert

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lightly
On November 12, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Rlyeh said:

Slightly similar as in not at all? I don't find twisting creation myths so they sound scientific very interesting at all. Rather the opposite, it's deception.

Ok ,thanks for the vinegary response .   interetsting.   Deception huh?  Whatever sourpuss.

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Derek Willis
On 11/14/2017 at 4:00 PM, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

I've got an  idea, why not offer anyone running for political office who claims to be a Christian a few quotes from Jesus and see what they think of them and if they recognize them. "Blessed are the peacemakers? Blessed are the meek? What the hell is this, some kinda goddam commie? And what's all this stuff about rich men and camels? Who is this wierdo?" 

Didn't the proto-hippie peace-and-love-man Jesus also say, "I came not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"? (Matthew 10.34).

Whoever wrote the Bible was clever, and gave a phrase for all situations. Of course, some people will say he used "sword" as a metaphor, as in the sword of truth, or to slay Satan with, or whatever.

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bee

 

I look on the Old Testament as a collection of ancient writings, snippits, documents and at one time orally transmitted stories
put onto paper that were all then selectively gathered together as a Book - the Bible -

I do wonder if some of it describes Ancient Technology that has disappeared from use due to global environmental disasters -- ?

For example Numbers  7:89 -

https://www.biblestudytools.com/numbers/7.html
 

89 When Moses entered the tent of meeting to speak with the LORD, he heard the voice speaking to him from between the two cherubim above the atonement cover on the ark of the covenant law. In this way the LORD spoke to him.
 

Perhaps this was something similar to the modern iphones --- but bigger like a communal big iphone - :) 
Something along those lines - maybe a bit more holographic...?

Who 'Moses' was and who 'the Lord' was we don't really know for sure and the description is lacking in technological detail -

But then who can give accurate technological details of a modern iphone..? and even if we can it could all get lost over time and
reduced to the simple bare bones -- say if there was a natural disaster and modern technology was wiped out there might
be stories passed on by the survivors over thousands of years of talking boxes with entities inside that the people listened
to and were told what to do - (TV / cinema / mobile phones) 

 

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bee

 

from the OP article ---

The parting of the Red Sea is particularly interesting to Downing, and he gives it 20 pages of examination in "The Bible and Flying Saucers" and devotes a chapter to it in the new book, "Biblical UFO Revelations." 

"My argument is that the Exodus UFO, the pillar of cloud and fire," he explained, "which appeared cloud-like during the day and glowed in the dark, used its propulsion system to split the waters of the Red Sea and save Israel from the Egyptians. The reason the parting of the Red Sea is so important is that it tells us in detail the environmental impact of the UFO presence. Modern researchers go to landing spots with Geiger counters and all kinds of equipment in order to study the environmental impact of a flying saucer landing. Exodus 14:19-30 is a very detailed environmental impact statement."

[end of quote] 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think that the story of the parting of the Red Sea more likely came from thousands of years of passed on stories
where it brings together a time before sea levels rose (no Red Sea) and after worldwide sea levels rose (Red Sea)

And ancient history was creatively woven in to the dramatic exodus story - it might have even touched on a time millions of years ago when
the equator was iced over and the walls of water might have been a garbled way of describing the sheer cliffs of glaciers --

(speculation :) )


 

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bee

 

BUT --- the mention of the '''environmental impact'' (of something) and geiger counters could be relevant -

It seems that it was dangerous to be in the physical vicinity of the Lord and at times the 'tent' -
Only Moses (for some reason) could speak to the Lord face to face ---to others it could be deadly -

In fact when there was complaining about Moses being the chosen one to do that -- from Miriam and Aaron
and all three went into the vicinity of The Lord ---
 

Numbers 12:4 / 5 - https://www.biblestudytools.com/numbers/12.html

 

4 At once the LORD said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, “Come out to the tent of meeting, all three of you.” So the three of them went out. 

5 Then the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward,

 

Miriam copped it --- 
 

Numbers 12: 10 / 11 / 12

10 When the cloud lifted from above the tent, Miriam’s skin was leprous—it became as white as snow. Aaron turned toward her and saw that she had a defiling skin disease, 

11 and he said to Moses, “Please, my lord, I ask you not to hold against us the sin we have so foolishly committed. 

12 Do not let her be like a stillborn infant coming from its mother’s womb with its flesh half eaten away.”


Perhaps all this wrath of the Lord and the deaths 'he' was responsible for was more the effects of some sort of  ancient advanced technology -?

 

 

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bee

 

It all went a bit pear shaped here as well --- when ''''fire came out of the Lord''''' -

Numbers 16 : 35 etc

35 And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense. 
36 The LORD said to Moses, 
37 “Tell Eleazar son of Aaron, the priest, to remove the censers from the charred remains and scatter the coals some distance away, for the censers are holy— 
 
:unsure:

 

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I'mConvinced

So, as a layman in the fields of archeology and biblical history you'll excuse me if I have misunderstood something here...but what people in this thread are basically saying is that the parting of the Red sea probably wasn't caused by the microwave emissions from an alien spacecraft's exhaust because the event never happened at all?

I'm going with the spaceship. I mean it's the logical choice, if exodus didn't happen that would mean that the whole bible thing could just be a fabricated tale with an ulterior motive! Yeah, as if...

 

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Piney
3 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

So, as a layman in the fields of archeology and biblical history you'll excuse me if I have misunderstood something here...but what people in this thread are basically saying is that the parting of the Red sea probably wasn't caused by the microwave emissions from an alien spacecraft's exhaust because the event never happened at all?

Exactly....

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lightly

Yeah, ....Stories.  I used to liked hearing them when I was younger.  

Anyway.... I really do wonder about something though....  I wonder If ,long long ago, Man did have a more cognizant connection to the Earth's natural energies....  Being able to sence direction for one... Sort of a built in compass.??

i shudder to think of what the mish-mash of electrical/magnetic fields and microwaves we saturate our environment with is doing to our ability to properly sence our environment ...and, our ability to THINK. !  (Based on observations over many decades)

....but that might just be me,and my age, I suppose.

 

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Piney
14 hours ago, lightly said:

Yeah, ....Stories.  I used to liked hearing them when I was younger.  

Anyway.... I really do wonder about something though....  I wonder If ,long long ago, Man did have a more cognizant connection to the Earth's natural energies....  Being able to sence direction for one... Sort of a built in compass.??

i shudder to think of what the mish-mash of electrical/magnetic fields and microwaves we saturate our environment with is doing to our ability to properly sence our environment ...and, our ability to THINK. !  (Based on observations over many decades)

....but that might just be me,and my age, I suppose.

 

The sense of direction is still there. As with a awareness with your surroundings. People have to disconnect and regain their full field of view again for it to work. 

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lightly

Thanks Piney,  my Dad had an uncanny sense of direction, even on overcast days, through the woods on hunting outings.

Me ?  Not very good at all it seems.   Maybe it's my imagination, but swear I can sort of " hear" or somehow sence, as interference in my brain, the microwave saturation...and intense electrical fields.

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Dumbledore the Awesome
On 1/23/2018 at 8:19 PM, lightly said:

Yeah, ....Stories.  I used to liked hearing them when I was younger.  

Anyway.... I really do wonder about something though....  I wonder If ,long long ago, Man did have a more cognizant connection to the Earth's natural energies....  Being able to sence direction for one... Sort of a built in compass.??

i shudder to think of what the mish-mash of electrical/magnetic fields and microwaves we saturate our environment with is doing to our ability to properly sence our environment ...and, our ability to THINK. !  (Based on observations over many decades)

....but that might just be me,and my age, I suppose.

 

That's what many have said. Admittedly, many of those have been on the hippy/New Ageish end of the spectrum, but it doesn't disqualifyy it completely. :hmm: 

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Piney
On 1/24/2018 at 5:58 PM, lightly said:

Thanks Piney,  my Dad had an uncanny sense of direction, even on overcast days, through the woods on hunting outings.

Me ?  Not very good at all it seems.   Maybe it's my imagination, but swear I can sort of " hear" or somehow sence, as interference in my brain, the microwave saturation...and intense electrical fields.

https://anthropology.net/2006/11/21/the-tiny-magnetite-compass-in-the-human-nose/

and you too @Vlad the Mighty

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lightly
On January 25, 2018 at 5:03 PM, Piney said:

 

Thanks Piney, Yeah, I'd read of rhe madnetite deposit in our heads.... was a little afraid to mention it.

     As for my seeming sensitivity to electro/magnetic stuff...  I also happen to have off the scales hearing of low and high frequencies.  Had hearing tested once (a physical?) and the audiologist was astounded.

couldn't actulally " hear" them but would raise my hand when I seemed to sence them.  He'd  say.. " you could hear that?!"    "Your not supposed to be able to hear that!"

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Piney
1 minute ago, lightly said:

 

Thanks Piney, Yeah, I'd read of rhe madnetite deposit in our heads.... was a little afraid to mention it.

     As for my seeming sensitivity to electro/magnetic stuff...  I also happen to have off the scales hearing of low and high frequencies.  Had hearing tested once (a physical?) and the audiologist was astounded.

couldn't actulally " hear" them but would raise my hand when I seemed to sence them.  He'd  say.. " you could hear that?!"    "Your not supposed to be able to hear that!"

I had a article stashed somewhere on PDF about humans who could smell as good as dogs. I smoke 3 cigs a day because my sense of smell is too good and I get overwelmed in crowds. My boss can smell a fly fart. He doesn't do crowds.

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Cam Gibb
On 11/2/2017 at 1:10 PM, seanjo said:

They haven't found evidence of an exodus is more correct.

I have a crappy hypothesis that the Exodus story came from Egyptians that were followers of Akhenaten's monotheistic new religion and they had to flee Egypt because the religion and its originator were being erased from Egyptian culture.

I seen interesting doc vids on utube looking at this, as well as chance that 1 such follower might have been 1 in records, known as Tut-Moses. "Son of" ?? Over time, with history mostly passed on verbally, possibly embelished to be more inspiring. That some records indicate between Mediterranean and Red Sea was area called The Reed Sea, that at low tide waters receeded from. Especially before ocean levels rose after ice age galciers were mostly melted. Maybe this was it. Or maybe knowledge of the reed sea got used or exaggerated or misinterpreted over time as to what happened. Still, it might likely have been presumed to be with help of the 1 God they believed in... another interesting point was the use of torches to help long seperated lines of walkers see where to go, by it's smoke clouds by day and light by night. It was proposed that this could have been used to trick distant chasers, especially at night, by 1 or few, going opposite direction as main group, to cause chasers to end up farther away before they realised the trick.

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seanjo
On 11/23/2017 at 1:48 PM, Derek Willis said:

Didn't the proto-hippie peace-and-love-man Jesus also say, "I came not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"? (Matthew 10.34).

Whoever wrote the Bible was clever, and gave a phrase for all situations. Of course, some people will say he used "sword" as a metaphor, as in the sword of truth, or to slay Satan with, or whatever.

Much disputed and misinterpreted. Jesus was talking about the war between good and Evil, God and Satan, not an actual physical sword, in fact later on in the text he rebukes Peter for drawing his sword to defend Jesus...Live by the Sword die by the Sword.

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docyabut2
Quote

It`s what I believe is the crossing of the red sea. the reeds sea in the Bible.Moses is believed to have crossed the Reed Sea or "Sea of Reeds"

 

Edited by docyabut2

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Cam Gibb
On 11/2/2017 at 1:10 PM, seanjo said:

They haven't found evidence of an exodus is more correct.

I have a crappy hypothesis that the Exodus story came from Egyptians that were followers of Akhenaten's monotheistic new religion and they had to flee Egypt because the religion and its originator were being erased from Egyptian culture.

Certainly a possibility. Plus over time, with few if any clay or written records, atleast found, accounts of the past from generation to generation could easily have gotten added to, embelished, colored, made more dramatic, names confused, dates, etc. Apparently there was a Tut-Moses. As well as lower sea level, creating what was apparently called The Reed Sea, either at top of Nile or between Red Sea and Mideterranean Sea, that at low tide was somewhat cross-able. Other vide otheories seen on youtube suggest it was possible the torch and smoke used to show their followers by day the proper direction, may have been carried at night down south to mislead Egyptians as to their where-abouts. Ofcourse the story telling of the timing of low tide crossing, stopping the Egyptians, was helped by the 1 God, was popular and may have got a bit exagerrated over time. As to did God help, well, can't really proove or disproove. ;-) 

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