My Thoughts on the Russia Conspiracy

[Tiggs]

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Well, it is good to hear that at least you are admitting that some of the things in the dossier are not golden plated. You seemed to earlier be implying that little, or none, of it should be considered gossip/useless.

As I said -- I'd be amazed if it was correct in it's entirety.

I also believe that it's not currently possible to make a call, either way, on many of the claims, based on the publicly available information.

Take the Cohen claim, for example. Cohen's claimed that he's never been to Prague, and to prove it, showed the absence of a stamp in his passport.

He may well be telling the truth -- but see if you can think of at least two ways that the absence of a passport stamp is not a sufficient alibi.
 

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I had not heard that. Do you have a link to an article?

It's been reported in a few places, but the original source of the story is from here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/fbi-once-planned-to-pay-former-british-spy-who-authored-controversial-trump-dossier/2017/02/28/896ab470-facc-11e6-9845-576c69081518_story.html
 

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Not my point. My point was the DNC paid Fusion GPS for several months, and Fusion GPS paid Steele. This is just as clear a link of the DNC to Russia as some of the stuff linking Trump to the Russians. Basically, we can't say either side is clean.

See below.
 

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I know if I was hiring a guy to collect information, I'd not want him sharing it with anyone without permission. Governments and Corporations are funny that way too.

None of that is evidence that Steele needed permission to share the intel. 
 

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

True.... The discuss has moved beyond the Steele dossier starting anything. I think I was clear about the timeline earlier in a post. Now I'm saying there was cooperation between the DNC and the Russians, by way of Steele and Fusion GPS... Collusion if you will... to prevent Trump from gaining office.

That the dossier came out After the election has ZERO to do if there was Intent by Clinton and the DNC to use Russian supplied information to stop Trump. Perhaps Steele was behind schedule, or perhaps his customer, the DNC/Clinton, didn't find his data interesting. But it was never used by the DNC/Clinton that we know of. But, that again doesn't mean they didn't intend to do so. Just as Trump Junior had a meeting to get dirt on Hillary, and didn't find it convincing, this was dirt on Trump... It just came by way of an Ex British Intelligence Officer, rather then from Chelsea. The intent was probably the same.

Oh, wow. So the full blown "No puppet, you're the puppet" conspiracy theory, then?

One question to start with: Given that Putin believes that Clinton tried to rig his last election against him -- why, exactly, would he want to help her win hers?

Also, if you could list some of the best evidence so far that supports your theory -- that would be great.

[Ogbin]

12 hours ago, Will Due said:

I think the USA is heading into a political abyss.

I believe that we are already past the point of no return.

12 hours ago, Will Due said:

 The criminals in government are winning.

They have already won. The American people have allowed themselves to be distracted, dumbed down, desensitized, and dependent on the government for various things in their lives. Even if the American people did somehow (Emphasis on somehow since our country seems to be completely and totally divided on multiple fronts) come together as a whole and stand up to the tyrants in our government and demand change, what would stop the government from imposing Marshall Law. After all, we can't have the American people telling our government (which is a government for the people and by the people ) what to do and how to do it.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Ogbin

[Ogbin]

14 hours ago, Lilly said:

Honestly, (and I can't say this strongly enough) don't just up and believe whatever the Russians tell you.

I for one don't believe what most governments tell people, ours included.

14 hours ago, Lilly said:

 Right about now I suspect Putin and his pals are literally laughing themselves silly

Of course they are, and rightly so. Just look at how are politicians not only act, but run our government. It's a joke. If I didn't live in this country I would be laughing too.

14 hours ago, Lilly said:

 how we foolishly fight among ourselves.

Well we can't have our politicians getting along with each other, that would mean cooperation. Cooperation = getting things done. Nope, we can't have that.

 

If Hillary had won the election, would we even be discussing Russian involvement? Somehow I just don't think so.

 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Ogbin

[Farmer77]

I cant stand the old warmonger but I do think this aspect of what Trump just did needs to be discussed more. The POTUS today said he chooses to believe the head of another nation over our own intelligence apparatus. Do people really think thats OK? 

 

McCain slams Trump over siding with Putin on Russia meddling 

 

Quote

"President Trump today stated that he believed Vladimir Putin is being sincere when he denies Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election and reiterated that he hopes to cooperate with Russia in Syria," McCain, a strong critic of the President, said in a statement. "There's nothing 'America First' about taking the word of a KGB colonel over that of the American intelligence community. 

 

[+DieChecker]

1 hour ago, Farmer77 said:

I cant stand the old warmonger but I do think this aspect of what Trump just did needs to be discussed more. The POTUS today said he chooses to believe the head of another nation over our own intelligence apparatus. Do people really think thats OK? 

McCain slams Trump over siding with Putin on Russia meddling 

Yeah, that is messed up. 

US Intelligence agencies: "Look at all our evidence we've gathered and it is simply to conclude...."

Putin: "Trust me......."

[+DieChecker]

14 hours ago, Tiggs said:

It's been reported in a few places, but the original source of the story is from here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/fbi-once-planned-to-pay-former-british-spy-who-authored-controversial-trump-dossier/2017/02/28/896ab470-facc-11e6-9845-576c69081518_story.html

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Quote

Oh, wow. So the full blown "No puppet, you're the puppet" conspiracy theory, then?

One question to start with: Given that Putin believes that Clinton tried to rig his last election against him -- why, exactly, would he want to help her win hers?

Also, if you could list some of the best evidence so far that supports your theory -- that would be great.

Quiet you puppet!! (joking!)

It is easy to believe Putin supported Clinton, if you believe that he's aim was Chaos, rather then to actually put Trump on the throne. 

Logically, why would the DNC fund Fusion GPS? Unless they planned on using the research? Why did they stop funding after Trump won the election? Conclusion: Because they wanted the information to prevent him winning, and once he'd won, there was no point in spending more money on the project. 

I guess the argument could be made that Clinton/DNC didn't give a Rat's a## where their research came from, but it is hard to believe they didn't know that much of the information was coming from Russian sources. 

[Farmer77]

5 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Yeah, that is messed up. 

US Intelligence agencies: "Look at all our evidence we've gathered and it is simply to conclude...."

Putin: "Trust me......."

I was coming to post a follow up , Trump did walk back that statement later  :

Trump seeks to downplay past skepticism of Russian election meddling 

 

But still it was a very questionable statement. 

[bee]

3 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

I cant stand the old warmonger but I do think this aspect of what Trump just did needs to be discussed more. The POTUS today said he chooses to believe the head of another nation over our own intelligence apparatus. Do people really think thats OK? 

 

McCain slams Trump over siding with Putin on Russia meddling 

 

 

 

you mean the Intelligence apparatus that appear to be doing their best to bring him down -

the Intelligence Apparatus who seem to be in the pocket of the Globalists -

I applaud Trump for having the courage to speak his truth -
after all the bs being invented and promoted by his enemies about Russia he doesn't cower and fall in line-

He's the President, for heaven's sake not a Globalist Puppet and that's why he got elected by the people
immune to brainwashing -

He doesn't want the Globalist Agenda Nonsense to create barriers between the two great nations of America and Russia -

And neither do I --- 

 

[bee]

 

I put this clip from a David Rockefeller 1991 speech in another thread but I want to put it here at this point
because it shows what Trump and the American people (and all of us) are up against -
long term plans for a One World Government and One World Economy (whether we want it or not)-

Hatched in the shadows behind closed doors - outside the democratic process -

Trump and Putin are not on board for these plans - McCain IS on board -

 

 

[Farmer77]

8 minutes ago, bee said:

you mean the Intelligence apparatus that appear to be doing their best to bring him down -

the Intelligence Apparatus who seem to be in the pocket of the Globalists -

I applaud Trump for having the courage to speak his truth -
after all the bs being invented and promoted by his enemies about Russia he doesn't cower and fall in line-

Thats cool (if delusional) hyperbole and all but basically the POTUS just sided with a hostile nation over our own men and women who are paid to keep our nation safe.  Without some pretty damn strong evidence that they're actually in the pockets of "the globalists" .....WAIT he just sided against the intelligence apparatus, he has no damn way to get evidence of anything

10 minutes ago, bee said:

He doesn't want the Globalist Agenda Nonsense to create barriers between the two great nations of America and Russia -

And neither do I --- 

The globalist agenda nonsense? Russia invested hundreds of millions of dollars into Twitter and Facebook and then used those tools to sew discord in our nation, even if you discount the Trump campaign connections (which you're just in denial at this point if you do) they're not a friend to be blindly trusted. 

 

 

[Farmer77]

4 minutes ago, bee said:

 

I put this clip from a David Rockefeller 1991 speech in another thread but I want to put it here at this point
because it shows what Trump and the American people (and all of us) are up against -
long term plans for a One World Government and One World Economy (whether we want it or not)-

Hatched in the shadows behind closed doors - outside the democratic process -

Trump and Putin are not on board for these plans - McCain IS on board -

 

 

You're so close Bee. Trump however is not the White Knight you're dreaming of. 

[bee]

20 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

You're so close Bee. Trump however is not the White Knight you're dreaming of. 

He was an unlikely candidate for '''White Knight''' but life's strange like that and throws up people and
situations that can take you by surprise - 

The Russia hysteria is IMO a complete fabrication to enslave the minds of people - It's a cynical exercise
of indoctrination that you appear to be happily taking sides with - 

Since Putin stepped in to help Assad save Syria from the Islamic State take over - he became the major target
because he interfered with the US/ Globalist agenda that for all the world looks like it it is using Militant Islamists
as a proxy army - (like they did in Afghanistan years ago with the creation of Al Qaeda..?) 

One day the news was showing Americans and others in orange jumpsuits being beheaded - the next Putin
was the Big Bad Wolf for helping stop Syria decend into another Libya -

Suddenly the Islamic State wasn't enemy number one - it was Russia - 

The media outlets all coordinated to make people forget about the Islamist threat and to pump up the anti Russia non sense -

 

 

[Farmer77]

Just now, bee said:

The Russia hysteria is IMO a complete fabrication to enslave the minds of people - It's a cynical exercise
of indoctrination that you appear to be happily taking sides with - 

Just too much evidence to make take that claim seriously anymore. 

1 minute ago, bee said:

Since Putin stepped in to help Assad save Syria from the Islamic State take over - he became the major target
because he interfered with the US/ Globalist agenda that for all the world looks like it it is using Militant Islamists
as a proxy army - (like they did in Afghanistan years ago with the creation of Al Qaeda..?) 

Most likely true however I think you're giving the POTUS way too much credit if you think he has any say over our military industrial complex. 

2 minutes ago, bee said:

Suddenly the Islamic State wasn't enemy number one - it was Russia - 

The media outlets all coordinated to make people forget about the Islamist threat and to pump up the anti Russia non sense -

Not really. ISIS has pretty much been wiped out, but further the media/government driven islamo-panic is wearing thin. People are starting to take note of things like facts which show the trillions of dollars we're spending isnt proportional to the threat .

You're into conspiracies you should watch "America Freedom to Fascism"  the director briefly touches on his relationship with one of the Rothchilds and how he described the panics the gov. would use to keep money funneling into the DOD, after terrorism itll be asteroids and aliens. 

 

[bee]

31 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

 

The globalist agenda nonsense? Russia invested hundreds of millions of dollars into Twitter and Facebook and then used those tools to sew discord in our nation, even if you discount the Trump campaign connections (which you're just in denial at this point if you do) they're not a friend to be blindly trusted. 

 

Oh please -- ''''sew discord''''' -- like you were one big happy family before Big Bad Putin allegedly stepped in-

Who said anything about '''blind trust'''' a certain amount of dot connecting and critical thinking can go a long way -

 

[Farmer77]

Just now, bee said:

Oh please -- ''''sew discord''''' -- like you were one big happy family before Big Bad Putin allegedly stepped in-

Well no , no we're not. We have a lot of problems and divisions in this country, thats why its such a big deal that a foreign entity is exacerbating them.  

1 minute ago, bee said:

Who said anything about '''blind trust'''' a certain amount of dot connecting and critical thinking can go a long way -

Agreed. Trump is a scumbag, he surrounded himself with scumbags, many of those scumbags have lied multiple times about their relationships with Russian interests. The dots line up pretty well. 

[bee]

9 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Not really. ISIS has pretty much been wiped out,

 

 

Probably thanks to Russia pulling the brakes on in Syria --- if they hadn't Syria like Libya (and Iraq) could
have decended into chaos with the Islamic State filling the power vacuum - I've got a feeling that the Globalists
wanted a Saudi Lead Islamic State to take hold in Iraq, Libya and Syria - as part of the re-arranging of borders
and power blocks -

 

 

[bee]

5 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Well no , no we're not. We have a lot of problems and divisions in this country, thats why its such a big deal that a foreign entity is exacerbating them.  

Agreed. Trump is a scumbag, he surrounded himself with scumbags, many of those scumbags have lied multiple times about their relationships with Russian interests. The dots line up pretty well. 

 

careful now - your beginning to expose yourself more and more - and I don't mean in the Hollywood way 

 

[Ogbin]

1 hour ago, Farmer77 said:

But still it was a very questionable statement. 

This is because Trump is (IMO) a very questionable person. He seems to have no control over his mouth, and this is a dangerous character trait. It's very difficult to get things accomplished when people see that you are not able to articulate yourself properly. Is Trump a better alternative than Hillary? Yes, of course he is. But with that being said, it is my belief that he should never have been chosen for President. When Obama was elected President he had little to no experience, and look how that turned out, horrible. Eight Years later the American people decide to show that they are unable to learn any lessons and go ahead and vote in another completely unexperienced person, Trump. Just knowing this makes my head hurt. I don't know who's worse, our politicians or the people voting our politicians in. I guess it's true when they say, "The only thing learned from history is that no one learns from history."

45 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

 Russia invested hundreds of millions of dollars into Twitter and Facebook and then used those tools to sew discord in our nation

 Talk about a waist of money. Obama, along with his cohorts have sown enough discord to last years to come. Trump isn't helping either, he's just making things worse by running his mouth all the time. But I doubt whatever Russia did actually had all that much of an effect. The one thing that Trump was able to do was to show the American people that Hillary was an even worse choice than him. This is how IMO Trump was able to secure the win.

 

[Farmer77]

23 minutes ago, Ogbin said:

But I doubt whatever Russia did actually had all that much of an effect.

The one case off the top of my head that is really sticks out is the rallies they organized in Texas. They organized pro and anti muslim rallies to happen simultaneously via social media, pitting Americans against each other. That kind of activity can lead to some very real bad civil war type ****. 

23 minutes ago, Ogbin said:

The one thing that Trump was able to do was to show the American people that Hillary was an even worse choice than him. This is how IMO Trump was able to secure the win.

 

Thats absolutely how he was able to secure the win and I was rooting for him (well I wanted the asteroid to hit before Americans had to make that horrible decision ) , somehow he has managed to make me question that assessment. Dont get me wrong, she is a horrible horrible human being but the mixture of Trump's bigotry, arrogance and ignorance truly makes for a dangerous cocktail. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Farmer77

[Tiggs]

4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Quiet you puppet!! (joking!)

It is easy to believe Putin supported Clinton, if you believe that he's aim was Chaos, rather then to actually put Trump on the throne. 

If Putin's aim was chaos -- he wouldn't be supporting the candidate that was winning in the polls.

You only need to look at the Russian Twitterbot traffic to see the direction of Putin's support.

You'll also need to look at the question in reverse: Why would Clinton risk committing Treason with someone that actively despised her -- especially for something the vast majority of the US didn't even know existed, pre-election?
 

4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Logically, why would the DNC fund Fusion GPS? Unless they planned on using the research? Why did they stop funding after Trump won the election? Conclusion: Because they wanted the information to prevent him winning, and once he'd won, there was no point in spending more money on the project. 

Opposition research is opposition research. Who'd have guessed?

Truth is -- as far as opposition research goes, there's nothing in there which could be used with 100% certainty. There's no smoking gun, just raw HUMINT.
 

4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I guess the argument could be made that Clinton/DNC didn't give a Rat's a## where their research came from, but it is hard to believe they didn't know that much of the information was coming from Russian sources. 

Steele's speciality is Russia.

I believe his company was hired after the DNC hack was identified as having Russian sources. My suspicion is that his brief was to investigate whether or not the Trump campaign was involved.

Another major question your conspiracy theory will need to answer: If the dossier was created purely for propaganda purposes, and Clinton wanted it reported in the mainstream, she could have just handed out copies at a press conference. Why didn't she?

While you're pondering that, perhaps you'd like to consider the lack of supporting evidence for your theory, as compared to, say, this email from Felix Sater to Michael Cohen, sent on November 3rd, 2015:
 

Quote

"Michael I arranged for Ivanka to sit in Putins private chair at his desk and office in the Kremlin. I will get Putin on this program and we will get Donald elected. We both know no one else knows how to pull this off without stupidity or greed getting in the way. I know how to play it and we will get this done. Buddy our boy can become President of the USA and we can engineer it. I will get all of Putins team to buy in on this, I will..."

Source: The New York Times.

 

[Lilly]

BTW, (just so everyone knows knows) that Felix Sater guy is not a credible source (very sketchy). Mr Sater may have simply been offering Mr Cohen what he thought Cohen wanted. To my knowledge this deal never even went down? Once again, being offered something isn't quite the same thing as actually engaging in something.

[Tiggs]

Just now, Lilly said:

BTW, (just so everyone knows knows) that Felix Sater guy is not a credible source (very sketchy). Mr Sater may have simply been offering Mr Cohen what he thought Cohen wanted. To my knowledge this deal never even went down? Once again, being offered something isn't quite the same thing as actually engaging in something.

Felix Sater? Sketchy, you say?

Huh.
 

[Lilly]

Let's face it, Trump is a real estate developer (some sketchy people there for sure). Trump is a novice to politics and hired some sketchy people (Manafort and Gates). And let's be totally frank, politics is chock full of folks who are, how shall I put it, less than honest. So, when anyone makes claims in this arena (regardless of party affiliation) we really have to look for corroborating validating evidence.

I've read stuff claiming to be *proof* of the most outlandish things (about both Trump and Clinton) so I tend to be very skeptical about anything. To say something is definitive evidence isn't as simple as it seems...hence why there's an ongoing investigation.

[.ZZ.]

4 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Thats cool (if delusional) hyperbole and all but basically the POTUS just sided with a hostile nation over our own men and women who are paid to keep our nation safe.  Without some pretty damn strong evidence that they're actually in the pockets of "the globalists" .....WAIT he just sided against the intelligence apparatus, he has no damn way to get evidence of anything

The globalist agenda nonsense? Russia invested hundreds of millions of dollars into Twitter and Facebook and then used those tools to sew discord in our nation, even if you discount the Trump campaign connections (which you're just in denial at this point if you do) they're not a friend to be blindly trusted. 

 

 

You might want to check that figure. Facebook says $100,000 and Twitter says $247,000.

Just one link of many amigo.

 

[Tiggs]

Just now, Lilly said:

Let's face it, Trump is a real estate developer (some sketchy people there for sure). Trump is a novice to politics and hired some sketchy people (Manafort and Gates).

To run his campaign.
 

Just now, Lilly said:

And let's be totally frank, politics is chock full of folks who are, how shall I put it, less than honest. So, when anyone makes claims in this arena (regardless of party affiliation) we really have to look for corroborating validating evidence.

I've read stuff claiming to be *proof* of the most outlandish things (about both Trump and Clinton) so I tend to be very skeptical about anything. To say something is definitive evidence isn't as simple as it seems...hence why there's an ongoing investigation.

Perhaps you'll point to where in my post I used the word *proof*, then, Lilly?

I believe I referred to it as "supporting evidence". I suspect Mueller will, too.

Plainly read, it's supporting evidence that shows Trump had a business contact in Russia who claimed both access to Putin, and a desire to involve Putin in engineering Trump's election win.

As for the deal itself -- Trump signed the letter of intent to build a Trump-branded tower in Russia that Sater's email was in respect of, during his Presidential election campaign.