What kind of person are you?

[sees]

3 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

A pessimist is a man who looks at the world with one eye closed. An optimist is a man who looks at the world with both eyes closed.

No...that might account for an EXTREME optimist - it's a question of degree and focus.

[freetoroam]

On 11/7/2017 at 9:00 PM, XenoFish said:

 

What kind of person are you because of your beliefs? 

i do not believe in any religion...and i feel great for it. My life is less complicated so i can focus on lifes real issues, like my husband,  dogs and boating.

How does your beliefs affect your lives?

No beliefs,  just love nature and realism...so my life is not affected.

Have they made life better? Worse?

not relevent

This goes to both the atheist and theist (even pantheist) out there.

 

[The Silver Thong]

As far as what kind of person I am I have no answer to that. I can see myself as being good or bad. It all depends on ones actions not the thoughts they may have. We all want to be good it's what influences those thoughts. I was raised in a non believer family. Since they retired and moved to a small town the church swallowed them whole, hook line and sinker. I can't talk about politics religion or anything they are told not to talk about. Or dismiss it as crap. Yet they feel good about themselves because they are told what to think and what to ignore. What gets me is they think there goodness actually does good when it does nothing if not harm due to the lack of looking out of a different perspective. 

One can be good and bad and not even what the difference is. I can say I'm good but that means nothing to you or anyone else. What is good and bad ? We all know the basics of being good but turn on the t.v. for 5 min and wow we are not good. Oh lets help these poor people from a war torn nation that we created and think we are good for doing so. Good and bad hmmm tough to answer.  

[Aquila King]

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 4:00 PM, XenoFish said:

A lot of the time in the section. Threads often end up in a war between belief and disbelief. I want to turn this on it's head with a few questions. I do not intend for this do devolve into a flame war between believers and nonbelievers, but to ask a few honest questions.

I can't believe that I missed this thread till just now.  

Anyway, great topic Xeno.  I'll respond to the questions as best I can.

 

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 4:00 PM, XenoFish said:

What kind of person are you because of your beliefs? 

I wouldn't call myself an optimist, pessimist, or even necessarily a realist per say. I think if I had to, I'd call myself a 'hopeful realist.'  Which is to say, I try my absolute best to be as objective as I can be, but despite how negative a situation may be (which I will acknowledge, as opposed to an optimist who only sees the good in it), I always try to focus on the hope of a better future.

I spent the majority of my life as a devout fundamentalist Christian, then a staunch militant Atheist, and now I guess you could just call me a Spiritualist. I am vehemently opposed to religion, but at the same time I oppose scientific materialism also. So in short, I'd say these beliefs have most affected me by making me question everything. Since I've made a number of major paradigm shifts, I'm well accustomed to being wrong about one's entire worldview, and the devastation that accompanies this realization. And since I've been a member of both extremes, I can understand both viewpoints.

I believe in an objective morality that is intrinsically linked to the fundamental nature of the universe, namely interms of conscious well-being. Therefore I at least try to behave in a way that promotes the overall well-being of all conscious living beings.

As for the afterlife, this has affected me very much in my past viewpoints, but now days it doesn't really change much about me. As a Christian, I was an evangelist. Warning people of eternal Hell, and worrying about myself going there as well. I also found nearly all personal pleasure in this life to be pointless, as the only real pleasure to be found was in Heaven, and that this life was merely a mission field to convert others. As an Atheist, I found every second of this life to be most precious of all, as it was the only time we had. Time mustn't be wasted, as you only have a limited amount of time left. Live life to the fullest, and seek to do everything you can to improve this life now, and for coming generations. Today however, since I fit somewhere in-between these two worldviews, and therefore it doesn't really affect my actions in this life. I'm able now to set it aside and just live, without worrying about how much time I have left, or worrying about eternal Hell or converting others.

As for God, I'm lean more towards a pantheistic concept if anything else, and again, this really doesn't affect me much. While I might have my leanings and inclinations, I'm still very much agnostic about it, so I have no strong urge to act in any particular way due to this.

I don't have any particular spiritual practices, as I pretty much act like just a normal dude. I'd say I appear on the outside to be rather similar to a straight up agnostic. The only real noticeable difference is that I find these topics to be interesting, and will actively seek out deep conversation on these topics.

And lastly as for proselytizing, in most cases I support simply making my position available. I won't go out of my way to convince others. To those who ask, I will answer, otherwise I'll leave them alone. The only notable exception to this being anything that directly leads to great harm. Then I will undoubtedly vice my opinion whether you like it or not, so as to hopefully prevent said harm.

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 4:00 PM, XenoFish said:

How does your beliefs affect your lives?

I think I mostly answered this above, but on a daily basis it doesn't really affect my actions much, as I'm able to put most all of these existential worries aside and just live life.

I do however discuss these topics regularly online, so if that counts for 'affecting' me then there ya go.

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 4:00 PM, XenoFish said:

Have they made life better? Worse?

Christianity made my life a living Hell, and I had convinced myself that this hardship was necessary.

Atheism was incredibly liberating! Though I was constantly worried my religious mother would find out. Plus it is no doubt kinda depressing to believe that death is the end, that we have no free will and are merely wet meaty robots, and that we exist by pure chance.

As for now, I feel I've found the proper balance. I'm no longer constrained by the negativity of Christianity, nor the drawbacks that accompany Atheism. While my life is by no means devoid of hardships, I have a much greater level of inner-peace.

[MauriOra]

Thought is "INSPIRATION"

Action is "PARTICIPATION"

Belief is "EMOTION"

Whatever Your belief May BE, It's TRUE to say "EMOTION FOLLOWS"....

[SmokeRider]

On 11/7/2017 at 1:00 PM, XenoFish said:

A lot of the time in the section. Threads often end up in a war between belief and disbelief. I want to turn this on it's head with a few questions. I do not intend for this do devolve into a flame war between believers and nonbelievers, but to ask a few honest questions.

What kind of person are you because of your beliefs?

I imagine my beliefs have shaped me, though my world view is agnostic. Somewhat skeptical, mostly a realist, yet I have an interest and limited belief in the paranormal, supernatural. It's a natural attraction and interest.

How does your beliefs affect your lives?

I think belief can be helpful (to me, at least) when I have no control over some life event. A prayer, a spell, brings peace. Whether it actually causes a change in reality doesn't matter. Problems often are worse in our mind than in reality. In that way prayer or magic is useful.

Have they made life better? Worse?

Both better and worse. Following someone else's belief system didn't work out for me. It caused harm. Following my own path makes life better.

 

 

 

[Mr Walker]

On 11/11/2017 at 4:53 PM, TruthSeeker_ said:

A pessimist is a man who looks at the world with one eye closed. An optimist is a man who looks at the world with both eyes closed.

And an optimist is a man who can see perfectly, despite  being blind.  

[The Silver Thong]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

And an optimist is a man who can see perfectly, despite  being blind.  

Can A blind person touch my nose with out poking my eye. Maybe 

[rodentraiser]

On Tuesday, November 07, 2017 at 1:00 PM, XenoFish said:

A lot of the time in the section. Threads often end up in a war between belief and disbelief. I want to turn this on it's head with a few questions. I do not intend for this do devolve into a flame war between believers and nonbelievers, but to ask a few honest questions.

What kind of person are you because of your beliefs? 

How does your beliefs affect your lives?

Have they made life better? Worse?

This goes to both the atheist and theist (even pantheist) out there.

I'm not sure I can answer any of these questions on account of they tie what I am to what I believe. And what I am isn't necessarily what I believe.

It's like believing in ghosts. Do I believe in ghosts? Um, yeah. Am I still skeptical of any apparition, picture, video or haunting I've seen and will see? Absolutely. Then why believe? Because without the faith that ghosts are real to begin with, I might never find out the truth about them. How does the belief in ghosts affect my life? It doesn't, really. My belief in ghosts is flexible and always subject to change depending on what I discover, but my core self doesn't depend on what I believe.

To paraphrase James Burke: I am what I know, not what I believe, and when what I know changes, so do I.

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by rodentraiser
spelling

[Only_]

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

And an optimist is a man who can see perfectly, despite  being blind.  

Finding out who you really are and what reality is really not? That ultimately they are both one and the same, eternal beyond sooo much illusion.

Edited November 14, 2017 by TruthSeeker_

[Mr Walker]

1 minute ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

Finding out who you really are and what reality is really not? That ultimately they are both one and the same, eternal beyond sooo much illusion.

That may be one specific outcome from a person with perfect perception.

The first sentence is a given.

The second is open to several interpretations.   A person who can see perfectly will see reality  as it is, AND see how  they perceive it.  They will  then be able to use the difference between these two understandings to know how much of what they perceive is internal and how much is external . 

[The Silver Thong]

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

That may be one specific outcome from a person with perfect perception.

 

How is that possible ? 

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, The Silver Thong said:

How is that possible ? 

Finding out who you really are and what reality is really not? That ultimately they are both one and the same, eternal beyond sooo much illusion.

For a person with perfect perception the  bolded bit is not just possible, but inevitable. 

I am not even sure what the second sentence meant.

Is perfect perception possible? 

Theoretically all things are possible.

In reality less so.

However,as humans engineer their senses, bodies, and minds and discover ways to improve them, we will greatly improve  our perception ( and thus understanding ) of ourselves and the universe around us.

As we gain more data knowledge and understanding of our selves, and our world, then our perception of these things will  become more accurate.  

[The Silver Thong]

31 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Finding out who you really are and what reality is really not? That ultimately they are both one and the same, eternal beyond sooo much illusion.

For a person with perfect perception the  bolded bit is not just possible, but inevitable. 

I am not even sure what the second sentence meant.

Is perfect perception possible? 

Theoretically all things are possible.

In reality less so.

However,as humans engineer their senses, bodies, and minds and discover ways to improve them, we will greatly improve  our perception ( and thus understanding ) of ourselves and the universe around us.

As we gain more data knowledge and understanding of our selves, and our world, then our perception of these things will  become more accurate.  

One and the same, how does that work in a higher being or even better how does that work in ones head. I will be honest and say I have no answers and that mostly I'm neutral. Perfection is impossible not inevitable as we can see through out history we have failed. That does not mean we are infallible when we strive for perfection.   We want perfection don't we.  One must be deluded to think we are even close to perfection and a belief in something we have no clue about tells us we have no clue about ourselves and we have to make things up to supplement our failures.   

[Mr Walker]

22 minutes ago, The Silver Thong said:

One and the same, how does that work in a higher being or even better how does that work in ones head. I will be honest and say I have no answers and that mostly I'm neutral. Perfection is impossible not inevitable as we can see through out history we have failed. That does not mean we are infallible when we strive for perfection.   We want perfection don't we.  One must be deluded to think we are even close to perfection and a belief in something we have no clue about tells us we have no clue about ourselves and we have to make things up to supplement our failures.   

Perfection is the target or goal to aim for as well as the motivation to  bother trying. Without the ideal there is no impetus for improvement or forward motion. In one sense you can make something perfect ie when you believe there is no way you can improve on your last creation  

How does what work? 

perfection?

Perfection is an abstract construct of the human mind. So it basically is what ever we choose it to be. For most, perfection is  a state which is incapable of improvement, so it depends what your aim is, as to what perfection is.

If you can't improve the functionality of an object, then it it is perfect. If you don't think you can improve the quality of an art work, then it is perfect 

So, with humans, perfection is the goal we set for ourselves. It might include total understanding of self and the world around us.  It might include total control of emotions and behaviours. It might include a balance of skills and attributes

  One thing which prevents us really considering perfection for humans is our limited life span. There really is no time to achieve a perfect state

However, given unlimited time and effort, it could be possible  to set a standard for perfection in humanity,. and then for an individual to achieve it.. 

Put simply, perfection is an abstract idealised construct, thus it can be reached by making it achievable through an accumulation of other abstract idealised constructs.  if you do not construct an image of perfection, then of course you can not know how to achieve that image or template 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Mr Walker

[The Silver Thong]

19 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Perfection is the target or goal to aim for as well as the motivation to  bother trying. Without the ideal there is no impetus for improvement or forward motion. In one sense you can make something perfect ie when you believe there is no way you can improve on your last creation  

How does what work? 

perfection?

Perfection is an abstract construct of the human mind. So it basically is what ever we choose it to be. For most, perfection is  a state which is incapable of improvement, so it depends what your aim is, as to what perfection is.

If you can't improve the functionality of an object, then it it is perfect. If you don't think you can improve the quality of an art work, then it is perfect 

So, with humans, perfection is the goal we set for ourselves. It might include total understanding of self and the world around us.  It might include total control of emotions and behaviours. It might include a balance of skills and attributes

  One thing which prevents us really considering perfection for humans is our limited life span. There really is no time to achieve a perfect state

However, given unlimited time and effort, it could be possible  to set a standard for perfection in humanity,. and then for an individual to achieve it.. 

Your right, perfection is the goal. However it's a goal we can't achieve. To think we can Is false however not something we should not strive for. Art is far from perfect as I think the Mona Lisa looks like crap. However it's in the eye of the beholder. Can you paint can you make a better mouse trap?  Understanding of self is up to one person and only one. 

Our life span has nothing to do with it. We have a finite life span however history does not. What does history prove to you, what does a book prove. To understand our past we must be honest. We evolved not created. I know, even myself wishes for something more but with all the evidence I can't. All things come to an end. Just be good with the time you have. 

 

 What good is a trophy when everyone gets one

Edited November 14, 2017 by The Silver Thong

[Mr Walker]

33 minutes ago, The Silver Thong said:

Your right, perfection is the goal. However it's a goal we can't achieve. To think we can Is false however not something we should not strive for. Art is far from perfect as I think the Mona Lisa looks like crap. However it's in the eye of the beholder. Can you paint can you make a better mouse trap?  Understanding of self is up to one person and only one. 

Our life span has nothing to do with it. We have a finite life span however history does not. What does history prove to you, what does a book prove. To understand our past we must be honest. We evolved not created. I know, even myself wishes for something more but with all the evidence I can't. All things come to an end. Just be good with the time you have. 

 

 What good is a trophy when everyone gets one

As i said before perfection is only an idea /Ideal  created by mans mind thus we can set the parameters of perfection to be achievable in things we create    However i tend to like the idea of it being just beyond our grasp.

 With living things, perfection is harder, because it implies completion, and no further growth or improvement, and living things, especially self  aware ones, will grow and develop until they die, or their mind stops working

My question was what if we had an infinite lifespan? . it is the KNOWLEDGE that our life is too short to become perfected that stops many from trying   How about if you had eternity to become perfected?

And it is precisely evolution which allows me to hope that humans might perfect themselves if we survive long enough to do so 

But it begs the question, what exactly is a perfect person ? 

One who can choose anger or peace ? 'yes.

One who chooses peace rather than anger ? yes

One who can live forever ?

one who chooses not to live for ever, so that others may take his place ?

One who can imagine anything, then has the knowledge and skills to create anything they can imagine?

I am happy with the time  I have. I am one of the happiest content and richest humans on earth,  blessed with great self empowerment /control over my life, and good fortune ; but naturally i would do everything reasonable to give myself more time  There is so much more to learn, to give, and to become.   

That is why i have never liked trophies.  They compare one with another, rather than self  with self. We all can deserve a trophy by becoming the best we can be, no matter how this compares with another's best  

Edited November 14, 2017 by Mr Walker

[The Silver Thong]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

As i said before perfection is only an idea /Ideal  created by mans mind thus we can set the parameters of perfection to be achievable in things we create    However i tend to like the idea of it being just beyond our grasp.

 With living things, perfection is harder, because it implies completion, and no further growth or improvement, and living things, especially self  aware ones, will grow and develop until they die, or their mind stops working

My question was what if we had an infinite lifespan? . it is the KNOWLEDGE that our life is too short to become perfected that stops many from trying   How about if you had eternity to become perfected?

And it is precisely evolution which allows me to hope that humans might perfect themselves if we survive long enough to do so 

But it begs the question, what exactly is a perfect person ? 

One who can choose anger or peace ? 'yes.

One who chooses peace rather than anger ? yes

One who can live forever ?

one who chooses not to live for ever, so that others may take his place ?

One who can imagine anything, then has the knowledge and skills to create anything they can imagine?

I am happy with the time  I have. I am one of the happiest content and richest humans on earth,  blessed with great self empowerment /control over my life, and good fortune ; but naturally i would do everything reasonable to give myself more time  There is so much more to learn, to give, and to become.   

That is why i have never liked trophies.  They compare one with another, rather than self  with self. We all can deserve a trophy by becoming the best we can be, no matter how this compares with another's best  

I have to say it's rare we agree on much but I like your post. However If I had eternity would I use that to become perfect and if so who would judge my perfection. I could be perfectly evil and not know it.  We can't be perfect or even strive for it. I have to fit in with 7 billion people and well it's hard sometimes to please everyone. However after seeing what I have seen I still try to be nice with out any thought of a reward.  Oh and if your that rich could I have a job, I could walk your dogs or something.  Ok I know you didn't mean money you meant spiritual and that is cool. Is self empowerment a good thing or a narcissist thing.   If so I might be guilty cause I think I'm great   but I'm not. I squish bugs 

[rodentraiser]

But what if you don't aspire to be perfect? Being perfect would mean...being perfect. And that means you'd never make a mistake. But how would you learn if you didn't make mistakes?

[Likely Guy]

On 11/7/2017 at 1:00 PM, XenoFish said:

A lot of the time in the section. Threads often end up in a war between belief and disbelief. I want to turn this on it's head with a few questions. I do not intend for this do devolve into a flame war between believers and nonbelievers, but to ask a few honest questions.

1) What kind of person are you because of your beliefs? 

2) How does your beliefs affect your lives?

3) Have they made life better? Worse?

This goes to both the atheist and theist (even pantheist) out there.

As an apatheist, I am neither a believer or a non-believer. I simply don't care about the issue.

1) The same as I would be, one way or the other.

2) The same as it would, one way or the other.

3) The same as it always has.

[The Silver Thong]

1 hour ago, rodentraiser said:

But what if you don't aspire to be perfect? Being perfect would mean...being perfect. And that means you'd never make a mistake. But how would you learn if you didn't make mistakes?

You don't need to be perfect or even try as It would be pointless. Just be you. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by The Silver Thong

[MauriOra]

2 hours ago, The Silver Thong said:

I have to say it's rare we agree on much but I like your post. However If I had eternity would I use that to become perfect and if so who would judge my perfection. I could be perfectly evil and not know it.  We can't be perfect or even strive for it. I have to fit in with 7 billion people and well it's hard sometimes to please everyone. However after seeing what I have seen I still try to be nice with out any thought of a reward.  Oh and if your that rich could I have a job, I could walk your dogs or something.  Ok I know you didn't mean money you meant spiritual and that is cool. Is self empowerment a good thing or a narcissist thing.   If so I might be guilty cause I think I'm great   but I'm not. I squish bugs 

We all have squished bugs but don't anymore OK.  We all are perfect to our self. It's just that our  me myself and I syndrome be lives we need to be a societal perfection but YOU BE YOU. Figure out the DUALITY (The JEWEL OF REALITY). Then YOU" WILL" and sew your perfection. Be all you can be. The world is yours2 heel (heal).. arohanui kia koe. . Peace to you. ..

[The Silver Thong]

2 minutes ago, MauriOra said:

We all have squished bugs but don't anymore OK.  We all are perfect to our self. It's just that our  me myself and I syndrome be lives we need to be a societal perfection but YOU BE YOU. Figure out the DUALITY (The JEWEL OF REALITY). Then YOU" WILL" and sew your perfection. Be all you can be. The world is yours2 heel (heal).. arohanui kia koe. . Peace to you. ..

Perfection is a myth that we all want. If we achieved perfection we would have nothing left to achieve. Hence we would not want to exist. 

[MauriOra]

3 minutes ago, The Silver Thong said:

Perfection is a myth that we all want. If we achieved perfection we would have nothing left to achieve. Hence we would not want to exist. 

That is not True... When perfection is achieved within your humanity and one with Nature then YOU MOST defin8ly want 2 exist. Be cause you know you have purpose in life. . Arohanui kia koe.  Go strive 4 perfection you deserve to have a Pupuritia  (Beautiful) life...

[The Silver Thong]

1 minute ago, MauriOra said:

That is not True... When perfection is achieved within your humanity and one with Nature then YOU MOST defin8ly want 2 exist. Be cause you know you have purpose in life. . Arohanui kia koe.  Go strive 4 perfection you deserve to have a Pupuritia  (Beautiful) life...

I hear ya but nobody cares, nature doesn't care the weather doesn't care if you drown does the water care ?  Name one thing that is perfect, just one.  I can't name one, but I wish I could.