The EU signs deal to unite their military

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, A rather obscure Bassoon said:

 

Can't see that ever happening, the German military is in a state of shambles underfunded and overstretched and in need of modernisation.The Ruskies would love that scenario.

I didn't say the day was here, yet and a lot of changes have happened in Europe in the last thirty years the no one could see ever happening.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Hammerclaw

[stevewinn]

On 15/11/2017 at 0:38 AM, Ozymandias said:

Why so sad? History shows exactly the opposite of what you say, especially where the UK is concerned. Four times in the last century we have come to a crossroads where our path diverged from that of the UK: 

(1) when we, a small country on the edge of Europe, successfully fought an Empire to become an independent nation;

(2) when we, the Irish people, decided to gift ourselves our own Constitution and become a Republic;

(3) when we broke the link with sterling and floated our own currency in ghe 70s;

(4) when we decided to join ghe Euro zone.

Ireland is an independent democratic and sovereign state and, unlike the UK,  will do exactly what the will of a majority of its own well educated people desire. Nothing more and nothing less.

History clearly demonstrates - not just suggests - that we do what we want to do, and we continue to do it. Regarding the issue of this thread, an EU army, we, the people of the Republic of Ireland, in voting for the Lisbon Treaty the second time, voted NOT to be part of a European common defence policy. 

A bit of Romancing going on there, Ireland lost territory, pegged its currency to Sterling, then had no choice but to join the EU because the UK decided to join. the same with when the UK went for decimalisation Ireland had to follow. - Ireland then joined the ERM to prepare for joining the Euro, -  which brings us to today. 

Today, Ireland doesn't have it own currency. Ireland doesn't have full fiscal control or monetary policy cannot set its own interest rates. Its like History repeating itself always under the yoke of a greater power, back then it was the UK today its the EU. Ireland thinks it makes decisions of its own free will, but the policies they choose are out of necessity. Ireland does not shape the world, but is shaped by the world in which it finds itself. always has always will. Great example with Brexit, the Border issue Ireland is not even in the room as its future is decided for it. it'll either do what the UK or EU tells it. a true vassal state, there are many in the EU. 

This is not me having ago or pulling Ireland down, like many people here in Liverpool my ancestry is from Ireland. so i have no hostility. Its geopolitics, Ireland is shaped by its geography. no matter what it decides it hopes or dreams its future is constrained, - a prisoner of geography like we all are. its why some countries succeed where others struggle or fail. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hetrodoxly]

14 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

A bit of Romancing going on there, Ireland lost territory, pegged its currency to Sterling, then had no choice but to join the EU because the UK decided to join. the same with when the UK went for decimalisation Ireland had to follow. - Ireland then joined the ERM to prepare for joining the Euro, -  which brings us to today. 

Today, Ireland doesn't have it own currency. Ireland doesn't have full fiscal control or monetary policy cannot set its own interest rates. Its like History repeating itself always under the yoke of a greater power, back then it was the UK today its the EU. Ireland thinks it makes decisions of its own free will, but the policies they choose are out of necessity. Ireland does not shape the world, but is shaped by the world in which it finds itself. always has always will. Great example with Brexit, the Border issue Ireland is not even in the room as its future is decided for it. it'll either do what the UK or EU tells it. a true vassal state, there are many in the EU. 

This is not me having ago or pulling Ireland down, like many people here in Liverpool my ancestry is from Ireland. so i have no hostility. Its geopolitics, Ireland is shaped by its geography. no matter what it decides it hopes or dreams its future is constrained, - a prisoner of geography like we all are. its why some countries succeed where others struggle or fail. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also have Irish ancestry and my wife is Irish (i call the kids halfpats) my opinion isn't motivated by a hate of Ireland it's very dear to me, it's motivated by a love of England, i feel a song coming on

 

[stevewinn]

9 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

I also have Irish ancestry and my wife is Irish (i call the kids halfpats) my opinion isn't motivated by a hate of Ireland it's very dear to me, it's motivated by a love of England, i feel a song coming on

 

Brilliant And there is nothing wrong in that. refreshing to hear in this day and age.

[AnchorSteam]

On 11/14/2017 at 1:13 PM, Essan said:

There is NO purpose in an EU army unIess the EU intends to use it for aggresive purposes. 

AII  other possibIe purposes are covered by NATO and the UN

Oh, there is a purpose, or the would not be doing it.

As for NATO, what do they even need us for these days?

What is the Purpose and Goal of NATO today, anyways? No, no links to 500 pages of legalese, if you can't explain it simply then just forget it. 

[Essan]

22 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Oh, there is a purpose, or the would not be doing it.

As for NATO, what do they even need us for these days?

What is the Purpose and Goal of NATO today, anyways? No, no links to 500 pages of legalese, if you can't explain it simply then just forget it. 

And you dont see the contadiction in what you say?

But I would be interested in knowing what purpose you think there is in an EU army, that is not already covered by NATO?
 

[toast]

1 minute ago, Essan said:

But I would be interested in knowing what purpose you think there is in an EU army, that is not already covered by NATO?

It is a merger of EU armies for economical benefit purposes, under the NATO umbrella.

[RoofGardener]

10 minutes ago, toast said:

It is a merger of EU armies for economical benefit purposes, under the NATO umbrella.

Actually, I don't believe its even THAT........ YET. 

Currently, they're just going to force all of the 27 member states to use the same weapons systems. The "unified" army will come later, and it will be under the European Commission umbrella, not NATO. 

The key thing here is that if you take control of a nations army, then you are well on the way to taking control of that nation. Not in the sense of a military coup, but in terms of eroding national sovereignty. When you have "unified" the power of legislation, the judicial system, immigration control, and now the military, what is left that can be called an independent nation ? 

[Essan]

5 minutes ago, toast said:

It is a merger of EU armies for economical benefit purposes, under the NATO umbrella.

So does, Spain, for example retain its own military command (in which case where are the economic benefits?)   Or does it now no longer have any control of its own armed forces.  And can be used according to military commanders in Brussels, regardless of the wishes of the Spanish people?

This is one of the reason Briton voted to leave the new European Empire  

[bee]

 

Classic speech from a couple of years ago and brilliant as ever ..... Nigel Farage talking about an EU army -

 

 

[Grey Area]

I think this is very definitely a step toward consolidation.  Everything is falling into place for the powers that be in the EU, you have universal legal infrastructure, universal currency, free movement, and now the proposal for an EU army.  Like all the others, I think this will be more subtle than we might otherwise expect.  As reported, the sharing and development of hardware, probably to start with joint training and taskforces and as mentioned the standardisation of equipment and materiel. 

My speculation is that will just be the start.  With my tin foil hat on I have to applaud the minds behind the EU, what they have done so far has been nothing short of insidious, the subtle yet systematic assimilation of entire sovereign states, and they have done a brilliant job, making entire nations so dependant on the EU for subsistence that the mere thought of leaving causes entire populations to have a mental breakdown.

I am not necessarily against a United States of Europe, I think that it could be a massive success.  Just not with it's current administration and certainly requiring nations to go into it with eyes wide open, and full transparency for the goals set by the leaders.

I for one am glad we have brexited, and hope my children or their children will live to see perhaps a democratic union of equals in Europe.  

[keithisco]

As I see it: A European Army, under the Central Command and Control of an EU Institution will come into being for 1 reason only; the aggrandisement of the French, Italian, Spanish and German arms manufacturers (note that these nations are promoting this initiative). Currently the largest arms manufacturer in the EU (by a 2:1 margin) is BAe Systems (UK) and the EU 27 will happily preclude it from tendering for EU Military contracts to enrich its "favoured nations". This comes as no surprise, but the "EU Army" will be ill-equipped by having to settle for less effective defence.

This leads onto an ethical dilemma for the UK; if this pans out, as I envisage, and the EU27 becomes an offense-target for another nation and finds itself outgunned and outmanoeuvred due to complacent political arms purchases SHOULD the UK jump to its defence? Twice in 100 years the UK has faced the very real possibility of its own extinction to come to the aid of a complacent European mainland...therein lies the ethical dilemma.       

[stevewinn]

9 hours ago, keithisco said:

As I see it: A European Army, under the Central Command and Control of an EU Institution will come into being for 1 reason only; the aggrandisement of the French, Italian, Spanish and German arms manufacturers (note that these nations are promoting this initiative). Currently the largest arms manufacturer in the EU (by a 2:1 margin) is BAe Systems (UK) and the EU 27 will happily preclude it from tendering for EU Military contracts to enrich its "favoured nations". This comes as no surprise, but the "EU Army" will be ill-equipped by having to settle for less effective defence.

This leads onto an ethical dilemma for the UK; if this pans out, as I envisage, and the EU27 becomes an offense-target for another nation and finds itself outgunned and outmanoeuvred due to complacent political arms purchases SHOULD the UK jump to its defence? Twice in 100 years the UK has faced the very real possibility of its own extinction to come to the aid of a complacent European mainland...therein lies the ethical dilemma.       

We'll always come to the aid of Europe its what we've done throughout our history going back further than the Great war, in 1805 Admiral Nelson defeated the combined forces of the French and Spanish at Trafalgar just two years later we invaded Portugal to liberate them from the invading  French and Spanish, then when the French turned on their ally Spain the British helped clear Spain of the French. - fast forward 8 years and Napoleons conquest of Europe was brought to an end when he met his Waterloo at the hands of a coalition led by British Field Marshal Arthur Wellesley AKA the Duke of Wellington and once again Europe was Free, free to c*** it up later in History.

Edited November 19, 2017 by stevewinn

[Ozymandias]

Hahaha! Such an entertaining thread! Sounds like you all protest too much and are trying to reassure yourselves. Ireland may well be the rock on which your jingoism founders.

However, irrespective of what happens you and the hardline Brexiteers are polarising the relationship between the UK and Ireland. Brexit and the Good Friday Agreement cannot be reconciled.

Your true attitude to Ireland is quite clear from reading your other posts here. You should be thankful that we in Ireland do not return the compliment. But keep it up and rest assured we will.

 

[keithisco]

45 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

Hahaha! Such an entertaining thread! Sounds like you all protest too much and are trying to reassure yourselves. Ireland may well be the rock on which your jingoism founders.

However, irrespective of what happens you and the hardline Brexiteers are polarising the relationship between the UK and Ireland. Brexit and the Good Friday Agreement cannot be reconciled.

Your true attitude to Ireland is quite clear from reading your other posts here. You should be thankful that we in Ireland do not return the compliment. But keep it up and rest assured we will.

 

Considering this thread relates to a EU Army then I am not sure where your comments fit in.

[Black Red Devil]

On numbers a military force to be reckoned with in the future.  

[Duke Wellington]

On ‎14‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 0:03 AM, Rinna said:

Germany finally gets to control Europe, third time is a charm!

Without a shot being fired too.....

[aztek]

On 11/13/2017 at 6:56 PM, Hammerclaw said:

The foundation for the creation of a European Republic.

European Islamic republic, just wait 20 years

[godnodog]

On 11/14/2017 at 0:03 AM, Rinna said:

Germany finally gets to control Europe, third time is a charm!

when was the second?

[godnodog]

15 hours ago, aztek said:

European Islamic republic, just wait 20 years

why 20 years? why not 5 months? or 50 years?

Are you afraid of 5% of european muslims?

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by godnodog

[stevewinn]

27 minutes ago, godnodog said:

when was the second?

1939-1945 German occupied territory/Associate/puppet governments and it could have went on much longer if countries UK, Canada, Australia/New Zealand & the USA never stepped onto the beaches to say hey NO, Europe your not doing it your way - we are not going to allow you to operate in this manner and through blood, toil, tears and sweat dragged them back to civility and re-admission to the human race.

the precursor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Comintern_Pact 

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by stevewinn

[godnodog]

5 hours ago, stevewinn said:

1939-1945 German occupied territory/Associate/puppet governments and it could have went on much longer if countries UK, Canada, Australia/New Zealand & the USA never stepped onto the beaches to say hey NO, Europe your not doing it your way - we are not going to allow you to operate in this manner and through blood, toil, tears and sweat dragged them back to civility and re-admission to the human race.

the precursor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Comintern_Pact 

 

in that case when was the first? because for me the first was WW2

Either we have differentinterpretations or I am missing a massive event, and dont say WW1 cause that was caused for different reasons

Edited December 2, 2017 by godnodog
missing text

[stevewinn]

32 minutes ago, godnodog said:

in that case when was the first? because for me the first was WW2

Either we have differentinterpretations or I am missing a massive event, and dont say WW1 cause that was caused for different reasons

1871–1918; Weltpolitik.

[godnodog]

5 hours ago, stevewinn said:

1871–1918; Weltpolitik.

thanks!!!, will read carefully, but will have to be wikipedia short version