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Aquila King

Quantum Physics and Consciousness

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I typically hate using quantum physics as an argument for anything spiritual, though nonetheless, it's a major argument many spiritualists use in opposition to materialism.

The argument basically goes that consciousness has been observed to have certain direct effects on various occurrences in the quantum realm. If this is the case, then an objective reality outside of ourselves becomes blurred, as our subjective experiences would have a direct effect on the objective world. Meaning that we as conscious entities, essentially project our own reality into existence, and that there must be some sort of 'cosmic consciousness' that holds the universe together.

I for one am on the fence on this one. I don't know enough about quantum physics to really say, though I do find it fascinating enough to at least hear both sides.

So with that I'll let you guys have at it and leave you with this short video:

 

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Can someone help me out here? The one thing that I don't understand about the Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment in the video is are they not considering the cat to be a conscious entity itself. If the cat looks at the vial, the vial must then be either broke or whole.

If it is whole, the cat is alive. If it is broke, the cat is dead. The cat is not neither alive nor dead until a human looks does not make sense to me. 

Schrodinger is a pretty smart guy, so what am I not understanding?

Edited by papageorge1
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But anyway in quantum mechanics,  where an electron is in an indeterminate state until viewed by a conscious entity, does defy our common sense view of reality. 

My spiritual view (Advaita) posits top down causation and seems to be getting support from quantum mechanics. Consciousness is what causes things to happen. The universe starts with a thought-form of Cosmic Consciousness/God/Brahman.

Conventional scientific thinking is atoms create molecules which create cells which create a brain which creates consciousness.

In the Advaita view, Consciousness is the fundamental and cannot be created by the physical. Here's another way to put it:

 

Science: Matter is primary and consciousness is a production of matter

Advaita: Consciousness is primary and matter is a production of consciousness

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Am I really going to have to describe the observer effect?

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25 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Can someone help me out here? The one thing that I don't understand about the Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment in the video is are they not considering the cat to be a conscious entity itself. If the cat looks at the vial, the vial must then be either broke or whole.

If it is whole, the cat is alive. If it is broke, the cat is dead. The cat is not neither alive nor dead until a human looks does not make sense to me. 

Schrodinger is a pretty smart guy, so what am I not understanding?

I think the main emphasis of the metaphor is simply that something can be in two separate states at the same time, until consciously observed. No easier way to illustrate that besides life and death.

Though I agree, throwing a conscious entity into the mix certainly messes with the whole point attempting to be conveyed. Would've better been served with a robot as the example.

Regardless, it's merely a metaphor (so I understood it to be anyway).

Hell if I know really, I'm agnostic in this field.

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Just now, XenoFish said:

Am I really going to have to describe the observer effect?

Lol, you don't have too... :whistle:

But since I am at least open to multiple opinions, I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

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Just now, Aquila King said:

Lol, you don't have too... :whistle:

But since I am at least open to multiple opinions, I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

A lot of the time the argument goes that our consciousness creates reality and reality doesn't exist unless observed. So which one of you saw me write this post? If Consciousness creates reality, then one of you had to Observe me writing this, since none of you did, then why does this post exist? Because it shouldn't. I had this conversation with another member, months ago, maybe even last year. Now if you want to get psychological, our thoughts do create our subjective experience of reality. However it doesn't magically make stuff happen just by thinking about it. 

The difference I see is that spirituality belongs in the realm of psychology as it deals with beliefs and their influence on our individual (subjective) experience of life. When you add quantum physics to the mix you're basically grasping at straws. The furthest I'd dare go into quantum woo is saying that our brains might be 'quantum computers'. But that's a stretch even for myself. 

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9 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

I think the main emphasis of the metaphor is simply that something can be in two separate states at the same time, until consciously observed. No easier way to illustrate that besides life and death.

Though I agree, throwing a conscious entity into the mix certainly messes with the whole point attempting to be conveyed. Would've better been served with a robot as the example.

Regardless, it's merely a metaphor (so I understood it to be anyway).

Hell if I know really, I'm agnostic in this field.

A robot makes sense. A cat does not. Couldn’t he have replaced the cat with a human then? And then the experiment doesn’t make sense because the first human is also an observer.

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4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

So which one of you saw me write this post? 

You did.

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Just now, papageorge1 said:

You did.

But you didn't. So in order for my post to even exist you'd have to observe me writing it. Since you didn't it should not exist. 

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5 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

A robot makes sense. A cat does not. Couldn’t he have replaced the cat with a human then? And then the experiment doesn’t make sense because the first human is also an observer.

Well see that's the thing I don't get, is in competing consciousness.

What about multiple observers with opposing viewpoints? They can't both be creating opposing realities, that'd be contradictory. If they cancelled each other out, then there'd be no reality. Does one trump the other if they have 'more' consciousness?

It may make sense at the individual level (sort of), but when competing forces come into play, that's when they lose me.

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3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

But you didn't. So in order for my post to even exist you'd have to observe me writing it. Since you didn't it should not exist. 

We are all linked in shared experience.

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6 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

A robot makes sense. A cat does not. Couldn’t he have replaced the cat with a human then? And then the experiment doesn’t make sense because the first human is also an observer.

 

6 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

A robot makes sense. A cat does not. Couldn’t he have replaced the cat with a human then? And then the experiment doesn’t make sense because the first human is also an observer.

I believe its the two party observance of one another that creates our shared reality.. Not what i believe, one of the points of your experiment.

The cat died, the cat didnt die-both are true but what is historically recorded is what is observed.... In this reality.... Or that one

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7 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Well see that's the thing I don't get, is in competing consciousness.

What about multiple observers with opposing viewpoints? They can't both be creating opposing realities, that'd be contradictory. If they cancelled each other out, then there'd be no reality. Does one trump the other if they have 'more' consciousness?

It may make sense at the individual level (sort of), but when competing forces come into play, that's when they lose me.

I think you're trying to make this more complicated that it is. This is why we have objective reality and subjective reality. We can all see the same tree differently, yet none of our thought-stuff influences that tree. That tree exist independent of us. So even without observation the tree exist. 

Resizedd_subjective-by-michael-kloran.jp

 

5 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

We are all linked in shared experience.

No we're not. This isn't some butterfly effect things. Because if I'm outside and I fart that doesn't cause a hurricane in hawaii.

Edited by XenoFish
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19 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I think you're trying to make this more complicated that it is. This is why we have objective reality and subjective reality. We can all see the same tree differently, yet none of our thought-stuff influences that tree. That tree exist independent of us. So even without observation the tree exist. 

Resizedd_subjective-by-michael-kloran.jp

I agree with you here Xeno, that's exactly true here in our every day experience on the macro level. It's when we get down to the quantum level though when physics gets all funky and weird. :hmm: It's like understanding the physics inside a black hole. At that level, physics as we know it on this scale breaks down, and there's a whole new level of physics to contend with. This is why I find this whole quantum effects of consciousness so puzzling.

I don't find the idea that if this is true on the quantum level, that this suddenly means we can mold matter with our thoughts like a Doctor Strange type character or something. I find that to just be a failing attempt at defending concepts such as the law of attraction and whatnot. Although at the same time, is it at least possible for our consciousness to have at the very least a minor effect on subatomic particles when observed on the quantum level, but little to no effect on the world around us on this scale of reality? I honestly don't know, and think it may very well be a possibility.

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13 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Although at the same time, is it at least possible for our consciousness to have at the very least a minor effect on subatomic particles when observed on the quantum level, but little to no effect on the world around us on this scale of reality? I honestly don't know, and think it may very well be a possibility.

Depends on how you look at it.

How the brain makes and breaks habits.

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46 minutes ago, Wes4747 said:

 

I believe its the two party observance of one another that creates our shared reality.. 

But if I do something myself in our shared reality, I will see it right then and there. Everyone else when they eventually look will see the same thing. So I don't understand this 'two party' point you are making.

Edited by papageorge1

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47 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No we're not. This isn't some butterfly effect things. Because if I'm outside and I fart that doesn't cause a hurricane in hawaii.

The theory in the video was that we are all part of One Cosmic Consciousness. This is why we have a shared reality. We are each individual sparks of the One cosmic consciousness in this theory.

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3 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

The theory in the video was that we are all part of One Cosmic Consciousness. This is why we have a shared reality. We are each individual sparks of the One cosmic consciousness in this theory.

So? It sounds good on paper but theories have to be tested. I'm sure you'll believe it regardless, because it goes to confirm your preexisting beliefs. 

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1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

because it goes to confirm your preexisting beliefs. 

I think a better way to put is all these paranormal and metaphysical things formed my beliefs. (as opposed to confirming preexisting beliefs). I am evidence and reason driven in my approach.

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1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

I think a better way to put is all these paranormal and metaphysical things formed my beliefs. (as opposed to confirming preexisting beliefs). I am evidence and reason driven in my approach.

I really wish that was true. The paranormal and supernatural doesn't exist. They are nothing more than mental fabrications. A subjective illusion based on expectation and belief. Nothing real, nothing tangible, nothing objective. If I believed in every 'ghost' I saw when in a sleep deprived state I'd be a fruitcake. When individuals such as yourself start throwing quantum woo into everything it really does more to discredit your beliefs. Why do you think every 'demon' experience comes from some Christian stand point? Because that what people expect so their brains create something. A false memories, a hallucination, even psychosomatic sensations. Just to give the illusion of a supernatural or paranormal experience. I spent too many years practicing magick. It's all a head trip. 

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1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I really wish that was true. The paranormal and supernatural doesn't exist. They are nothing more than mental fabrications. A subjective illusion based on expectation and belief. Nothing real, nothing tangible, nothing objective. If I believed in every 'ghost' I saw when in a sleep deprived state I'd be a fruitcake. When individuals such as yourself start throwing quantum woo into everything it really does more to discredit your beliefs. Why do you think every 'demon' experience comes from some Christian stand point? Because that what people expect so their brains create something. A false memories, a hallucination, even psychosomatic sensations. Just to give the illusion of a supernatural or paranormal experience. I spent too many years practicing magick. It's all a head trip. 

I have seen many times over enough evidence to believe beyond all reasonable doubt that something more than 'subjective illusion' must be going on.

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Just now, papageorge1 said:

I have seen many times over enough evidence to believe beyond all reasonable doubt that something more than 'subjective illusion' must be going on.

Then your confirmation bias is strong. Tell you what Georgie, catch a real ghost. Put it in a jar or something. So that science can have at it. You do that. I'll change my opinion. Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that ghost exist and I will admit being wrong. That's all you've got to do. 100% verifiable proof. Can you do that? 

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1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Then your confirmation bias is strong. Tell you what Georgie, catch a real ghost. Put it in a jar or something. So that science can have at it. You do that. I'll change my opinion. Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that ghost exist and I will admit being wrong. That's all you've got to do. 100% verifiable proof. Can you do that? 

I believe in ghosts from my objective judgment of the quantity, quality and consistency of the reports and investigations. If a spirit was in a jar, we couldn't detect it with our physical senses and instruments. We can only detect their involvement with the physical plane like temporary materializations or activity on the physical.

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7 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

we couldn't detect it with our physical senses and instruments. We can only detect their involvement with the physical plane like temporary materializations or activity on the physical.

That's why ghost are a figment of the imagination. No amount of quantum woo can change that. 

The experiment suggests that "feelings of presence" (FOPs), often interpreted as spirits, angels or demons, are really all in the mind, say the researchers.

Such experiences are frequently reported by people in extreme physical or emotional situations, such as mountaineers and explorers, or those grieving for a lost loved one.

They are also associated with medical conditions that affect the brain, including epilepsy, stroke, migraine and cancer.

Source.

Edited by XenoFish
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