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blackdogsun

Determining the nature of Khufu's voids

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blackdogsun

Much excitement and speculation has been discussed as to the nature of significant voids discovered recently by muon scan analysis in the great pyramid of Khufu.

Some suggestion has been made that the void above the Grand Gallery reveals the real location of the burial chamber of Khufu.

But could this be a real possibility?

Much of my research on this enigmatic pyramid has lead me to conclude that if we really want to understand the intentions, design aesthetics and how its builders intended the pyramid to function then we really need to understand Old Kingdom, 4th Dynasty religious beliefs and practices.

The paper ‘Explaining the Shafts in Khufu’s Pyramid at Giza’ by Anthony Sakovich
http://www.gizapyramids.org/pdf_library/sakovich_jarce_42_2005-6.pdf
seems to be a well researched account of the real purpose of the shafts in light of the religious practice at the time.

Khufu’s pyramid is unique in that the burial chamber is above the entrance way and so, in keeping with their religious beliefs, a way to enable the cosmic waters to flow into and around Khufu’s sarcophagus had to be found, to which the shafts were constructed.
The subterranean chamber and Queens chamber were contingency plans should Khufu die before the project was completed; which explains why the shafts in the Queens chamber (which is also above the entrance way) were never opened.

In short the Kings Chamber as we know it was indeed constructed as a burial chamber for Khufu and that he was interred there as is evident by the fact that the shafts into the chamber are open.
If this is a decoy burial chamber as some suggest (but which i think unlikely) then we should find evidence of other shafts on the outside of the pyramid coming from Khufu’s real burial chamber.

Can any evidence of these shafts be seen on the muon scans?

What else could be going on with the presence of voids?

I found this diagram in my files yesterday portraying how the pyramid may have been built. I think its relevant and interesting seeing the workgang hauling the massive roofing stones through the area where the void is located.

5a0f8354348d8_Agypten_098copy.thumb.jpg.4e183cb8f4e0bfddf155675510b8e5aa.jpg
I wonder: in order for the roofing stones to be hauled up to the top of the relieving chambers could this area, shown in the diagram and in the same area as the recently discovered void, have been constructed differently, creating an area of differing density to the rest of the pyramid which might be giving the impression of a void on muon scans??

As an amateur archaeologist I’d be most interested in any feedback on these questions from more knowledgeable folk, amateur or professional.

If I may I'd prefer to hear serious, more orthodox comments if that's OK. I'm a bit over the jokes and far-out stuff one has to wade through at times.

Cheers, David.

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Hanslune
2 hours ago, blackdogsun said:

Much excitement and speculation has been discussed as to the nature of significant voids discovered recently by muon scan analysis in the great pyramid of Khufu.

Some suggestion has been made that the void above the Grand Gallery reveals the real location of the burial chamber of Khufu.

But could this be a real possibility?

Much of my research on this enigmatic pyramid has lead me to conclude that if we really want to understand the intentions, design aesthetics and how its builders intended the pyramid to function then we really need to understand Old Kingdom, 4th Dynasty religious beliefs and practices.

The paper ‘Explaining the Shafts in Khufu’s Pyramid at Giza’ by Anthony Sakovich
http://www.gizapyramids.org/pdf_library/sakovich_jarce_42_2005-6.pdf
seems to be a well researched account of the real purpose of the shafts in light of the religious practice at the time.

Khufu’s pyramid is unique in that the burial chamber is above the entrance way and so, in keeping with their religious beliefs, a way to enable the cosmic waters to flow into and around Khufu’s sarcophagus had to be found, to which the shafts were constructed.
The subterranean chamber and Queens chamber were contingency plans should Khufu die before the project was completed; which explains why the shafts in the Queens chamber (which is also above the entrance way) were never opened.

In short the Kings Chamber as we know it was indeed constructed as a burial chamber for Khufu and that he was interred there as is evident by the fact that the shafts into the chamber are open.
If this is a decoy burial chamber as some suggest (but which i think unlikely) then we should find evidence of other shafts on the outside of the pyramid coming from Khufu’s real burial chamber.

Can any evidence of these shafts be seen on the muon scans?

What else could be going on with the presence of voids?

I found this diagram in my files yesterday portraying how the pyramid may have been built. I think its relevant and interesting seeing the workgang hauling the massive roofing stones through the area where the void is located.

5a0f8354348d8_Agypten_098copy.thumb.jpg.4e183cb8f4e0bfddf155675510b8e5aa.jpg
I wonder: in order for the roofing stones to be hauled up to the top of the relieving chambers could this area, shown in the diagram and in the same area as the recently discovered void, have been constructed differently, creating an area of differing density to the rest of the pyramid which might be giving the impression of a void on muon scans??

As an amateur archaeologist I’d be most interested in any feedback on these questions from more knowledgeable folk, amateur or professional.

If I may I'd prefer to hear serious, more orthodox comments if that's OK. I'm a bit over the jokes and far-out stuff one has to wade through at times.

Cheers, David.

David what is the source of this German diagram?

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Kenemet
4 hours ago, blackdogsun said:

Khufu’s pyramid is unique in that the burial chamber is above the entrance way and so, in keeping with their religious beliefs, a way to enable the cosmic waters to flow into and around Khufu’s sarcophagus had to be found, to which the shafts were constructed.

I'm completely unfamiliar with this belief.  Do you have a source?  This also seems at odds with the floor plan of the pyramids before Khufu and those after.

Quote

Can any evidence of these shafts be seen on the muon scans?  What else could be going on with the presence of voids?

I don't think they provide fine detail...otherwise we'd know a lot more about those oddities than we do.  They might simply be stone rubble fill areas.

Quote

I wonder: in order for the roofing stones to be hauled up to the top of the relieving chambers could this area, shown in the diagram and in the same area as the recently discovered void, have been constructed differently, creating an area of differing density to the rest of the pyramid which might be giving the impression of a void on muon scans?

Not sure what you're suggesting.  They would have been added as that particular layer was done.  There's similar relieving chambers in earlier and later pyramids.

 

 

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blackdogsun

Hi, Hanslune. I don't recall now exactly where the diagram came from but it is an old file i've had since 2008. I did an image search but I don't recognize any of the websites that popped up.

Attached is the original un-cropped image. It appears to be from a german edition of a childrens book about pyramids which i was only using here to illustrate a possible construction technique that I mused may have left features that could account for anomalies interpreted in the scan analysis as voids.

Just a rhetorical thought really.

Ägypten_098.jpg

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blackdogsun
4 hours ago, Kenemet said:

I'm completely unfamiliar with this belief.  Do you have a source?  This also seems at odds with the floor plan of the pyramids before Khufu and those after.

I don't think they provide fine detail...otherwise we'd know a lot more about those oddities than we do.  They might simply be stone rubble fill areas.

Not sure what you're suggesting.  They would have been added as that particular layer was done.  There's similar relieving chambers in earlier and later pyramids.

 

 

Hi, Kenemet. The paper I linked to in my post discusses the concept of the great river and cosmic waters in Old Kingdom beliefs in depth with further sources of referrence.

I'm unsure how well this idea of Sakovith's is accepted in orthodox archaeology in regard to the purpose of the shafts in the King's and Queen's chambers which is why i bring it up here. While certainly esoteric from our point of view it seems wholly consistent to me with Old Kingdom religion at the time (but i'm no expert). Having accepted this theory myself a second burial chamber seems unlikely unless it too has shafts extending from it to the outside (which i guess could be undetectable these days under eons of rubble filling them in).

I guess the point of my thread is that from what i understand so far about Khufu's pyramid and the people who built it there doesn't seem to be anything more of significance to be discovered. What then are these voids? As you said simply stone rubble fill areas.

Khufu's pyramid is surprising in so many of its unique aspects that, while i'm pretty sure there's nothing more to see here, its not really possible to be completely confident that one knows all its secrets. And how i would love, in this instance, to be proved wrong.

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Kenemet
5 hours ago, blackdogsun said:

Hi, Kenemet. The paper I linked to in my post discusses the concept of the great river and cosmic waters in Old Kingdom beliefs in depth with further sources of referrence.

I'm unsure how well this idea of Sakovith's is accepted in orthodox archaeology in regard to the purpose of the shafts in the King's and Queen's chambers which is why i bring it up here. While certainly esoteric from our point of view it seems wholly consistent to me with Old Kingdom religion at the time (but i'm no expert). Having accepted this theory myself a second burial chamber seems unlikely unless it too has shafts extending from it to the outside (which i guess could be undetectable these days under eons of rubble filling them in).

I guess the point of my thread is that from what i understand so far about Khufu's pyramid and the people who built it there doesn't seem to be anything more of significance to be discovered. What then are these voids? As you said simply stone rubble fill areas.

Khufu's pyramid is surprising in so many of its unique aspects that, while i'm pretty sure there's nothing more to see here, its not really possible to be completely confident that one knows all its secrets. And how i would love, in this instance, to be proved wrong.

I find it a little fishy, since the original tombs were always underground.  Even the mastabas had this kind of setup.  He's been cited 3 or 4 times since the 2006 article, so I think that the answer is "not well received."  But there are other scholars on this board and they may step in with some information that I don't have.

It's possible that there may be more to find there.  Pyramids changed considerably since the time of King Djoser (with his extremely elaborate underground system.)

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Harte

 

17 hours ago, Kenemet said:

I find it a little fishy, since the original tombs were always underground.  Even the mastabas had this kind of setup.  He's been cited 3 or 4 times since the 2006 article, so I think that the answer is "not well received." 

That is taken into account in the hypothesis. Because Khufu's chamber was above ground, the idea is that the shafts were necessary for the cosmic river to get in. In other tombs, the cosmic river had no trouble because they were below the surface, i.e., downhill.

I first heard about this idea last spring, IIRC.

I think this explanation for the shafts is as good as any, and better than most.

Harte

Edited by Harte
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Khaemwaset

 I have to say that it seems to me that Mustafa Waziri and Dr. Hawass are not very circumspect in their condemnation of the release of the paper to the media describing the results of the muons scan as 'unscientific' and in one instance by Hawass as 'propaganda', 

 Kunihori Murishima of Nagoya University, and the team of particle physicists who worked on this project cannot be pleased by having these epithets applied to them and their groundbreaking work - by the authorities of the very country which will benefit by it.  Egypt is desperate for tourism and furthering the interest in AE, yet the Egyptian authorities are stumbling all over themselves trying to assert their authority over the rollout of the information, and do it by fairly well smearing the people who have actually majorly funded, done the difficult work and have compiled the results  I dunno, but it seems incredibly small minded to me, and short sighted.

Sorry for the rant, Blackdogsun.  I don't mean to distract from your topic.  Mea culpa.

Edited by Khaemwaset
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atalante

The Sakovich article contains a lot of interesting comments.  For example, it points to rudimentary shafts that were also started in Khafre's pyramid. 

 "Khafre's pyramid has the beginnings of shafts cut into the walls of the burial chamber, and they have been likened to shafts in Khufu's burial chamber. The shafts in Khafre's pyramid, however, were never completed. Instead, a second entrance was created that intersects with the first passage, and proceeds upward through the body of the pyramid. When this second entrance was built, the shafts in Khafre's burial chamber were rendered superfluous."

It seems likely to me, some engineering efficiency expert told Khafre that short shafts in a pyramid were every bit as effective, symbolically, as the long shafts in Khufu's pyramid.  Plus of course, that short shafts kept the construction on-schedule and on-budget.  

Edited by atalante
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Kenemet
6 hours ago, Harte said:

That is taken into account in the hypothesis. Because Khufu's chamber was above ground, the idea is that the shafts were necessary for the cosmic river to get in. In other tombs, the cosmic river had no trouble because they were below the surface, i.e., downhill.

I first heard about this idea last spring, IIRC.

I think this explanation for the shafts is as good as any, and better than most.

 

Noted... however, the weakness I see here is that there is apparently no change in the overall design of burials following this one.  That would imply that Khufu had some religious ideas that were not adhered to by others (think: Akhenaten) but we don't see any real indication of some sort of change in religion during his reign that reverted afterwards.

On the other hand, I have no good hypothesis about the design other than they might have encountered some problem with the initial underground chamber that caused a change in plans. 

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Harte

A problem with the underground chamber could lead to the shafts being necessary for the cosmic river to get in, if the problem required you to build a second tomb chamber above ground level.

Harte

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Hanslune
8 hours ago, Harte said:

A problem with the underground chamber could lead to the shafts being necessary for the cosmic river to get in, if the problem required you to build a second tomb chamber above ground level.

Harte

K1vQWUG.jpg

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Grimscythe

Hm. I thought the voids and shafts were worked into Khufu’s pyramid as a deterrent to would-be graverobbers? At least, that’s what I recall from a documentary I’d watched on them. 

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kmt_sesh
20 hours ago, The Ghastly Grimoire said:

Hm. I thought the voids and shafts were worked into Khufu’s pyramid as a deterrent to would-be graverobbers? At least, that’s what I recall from a documentary I’d watched on them. 

No one knows what the voids are or why they're there, at least yet. Now, there is no agreement on why the shafts are there, although there are numerous theories (including this one presented by blackfodgsun), but I'm not sure how the shafts would prevent or deter tomb raiding.

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Scott Creighton
11 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

No one knows what the voids are or why they're there, at least yet. 

Although there are some who hypothesise why the 'Void' is there and what it probably contains.

My updated article.

SC

Edited by Scott Creighton

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stereologist
7 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Although there are some who hypothesise why the 'Void' is there and what it probably contains.

My updated article.

SC

The operative word is not 'probably'. There is little chance your guesses are correct as seen in other thread at U-M.

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Hanslune
14 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

No one knows what the voids are or why they're there, at least yet. Now, there is no agreement on why the shafts are there, although there are numerous theories (including this one presented by blackfodgsun), but I'm not sure how the shafts would prevent or deter tomb raiding.

Well I think we'll have to wait a year or more before the slow gears of rational research are engaged. In the mean time the crazies will dance in the moon light and make up all manners of nonsense. When the void is entered they will announce it was what they predicted but that the mainstream is 'hiding' it from us. lol

Edited by Hanslune
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Jarocal
16 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

No one knows what the voids are or why they're there, at least yet. Now, there is no agreement on why the shafts are there, although there are numerous theories (including this one presented by blackfodgsun), but I'm not sure how the shafts would prevent or deter tomb raiding.

They were put in so Egyptologists would spend time running metal rods, little robotic cameras and such in them leaving the recently confirmed voids undisturbed.

well that or fill chutes/air lock for a really big pyramidal mash Tun. The Egyptians were fond of beer...:D

Edited by Jarocal
Cladking translations are from the natural language
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travelnjones

"Phrasing" - Archer

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