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Crazy Horse

Feelings and Emotions

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Crazy Horse

Feelings are generally thought to run from an uncondictional blisful love down to utter terror and fear. And all the variables in between.

Emotion on the other hand is simply the strengh of these feeling, the vehicle that drives them forward. Or we might say that feelings are the colour of life but is the emotion that adds depth and richness to those basic colours.

Anger is a good example. Anger arises from fear, fear of the unknown, of change, of self, of loosing something.. The more emotion the greater the impact is, but if you can turn the anger away from fear and just have the pure emotion, then it's like turning up the volume on your iPhone. You turn it up, the emotion is raw, then turn it down and carry on as before.

Compassion is another good example. Compassion is literally this feeling of wanting to help someone in distress. The feeling you get in your heart when you see someone suffering. Whether we act upon this feeling is another matter, but ha-ho, no-ones perfect. The point being that the greater this feeling of compassion the more likely you are going to stop and help. If we want to reach this place of blissful unconditional love, then compassion must be felt strongly.

And one more point - The Result. Our feelings are great markers upon our personal path. When we come to a cross roads and we have a difficult choice to make, we can make it out of fear or out of love, and the results are there for all to see.

Any thoughts, feelings or emotions?

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sees

You say...."If we want to reach this place of blissful unconditional love, then compassion must be felt strongly."  It's a commendable goal! One that, perhaps, those mostly spiritually inclined would want.

I have reservations about unconditional love since unconditional = no matter what, i.e. regardless of how you are treated....  It opens the way to being abused.  Kind people are prone to being used as doormats.  I was one of them before I learnt to have boundaries; it's possible to be both kind/giving but showing there are limits when you feel the line is being crossed and you are in danger of being disrespected.  I have never really understood Jesus saying that if you are slapped in the face, to offer the other cheek.... Maybe it was effective in bygone days when life was more simple, perhaps people less prone to vices.

If the world was a more loving place it would obviously solve so many problems that stem from ego and greed - our materialistic society has given us many 'toys' but at what cost?  There is a stronger sense of community amongst those living more simply together in various parts of the world - more supportive/caring.  

I am on a spiritual path (and have been most of my adult life) with my current ongoing focus to develop the heart more - this entails making more allowances for others e.g. in understanding why they are the way they are - trying to see the bigger picture.  It's a process of softening, mellowing which does get easier with old age!  However, I also have strong opinions so it's a work in progress! color.gif

 

Edited by sees
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Crazy Horse
31 minutes ago, sees said:

You say...."If we want to reach this place of blissful unconditional love, then compassion must be felt strongly."  It's a commendable goal! One that, perhaps, those mostly spiritually inclined would want.

I have reservations about unconditional love since unconditional = no matter what, i.e. regardless of how you are treated....  It opens the way to being abused.  Kind people are prone to being used as doormats.  I was one of them before I learnt to have boundaries; it's possible to be both kind/giving but showing there are limits when you feel the line is being crossed and you are in danger of being disrespected.  I have never really understood Jesus saying that if you are slapped in the face, to offer the other cheek.... Maybe it was effective in bygone days when life was more simple, perhaps people less prone to vices.

If the world was a more loving place it would obviously solve so many problems that stem from ego and greed - our materialistic society has given us many 'toys' but at what cost?  There is a stronger sense of community amongst those living more simply together in various parts of the world - more supportive/caring.  

I am on a spiritual path (and have been most of my adult life) with my current ongoing focus to develop the heart more - this entails making more allowances for others e.g. in understanding why they are the way they are - trying to see the bigger picture.  It's a process of softening, mellowing which does get easier with old age!  However, I also have strong opinions so it's a work in progress! color.gif

 

Short answer, (I have to go out) but unconditional love is about what you give, not what you receive.

To give uncondictioanlly is the way to recieve Everything imho. But allowing yourself to be abused, is not being kind to oneself. Nor in fact are you being kind to your abuser by allowing them to continue.

True love is a balanced love where we have the strengh to say "No". 

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sees
24 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Short answer, (I have to go out) but unconditional love is about what you give, not what you receive.

To give uncondictioanlly is the way to recieve Everything imho. But allowing yourself to be abused, is not being kind to oneself. Nor in fact are you being kind to your abuser by allowing them to continue.

True love is a balanced love where we have the strengh to say "No". 

Yes I was not focused on receiving at all!(?)   588401.gif 

Do you see though that not allowing yourself to be abused is placing boundaries, i.e. LIMITS on what you will give so this becomes conditional love.

Edited by sees
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Crazy Horse
13 minutes ago, sees said:

Yes I was not focused on receiving at all!(?)   588401.gif 

Do you see though that not allowing yourself to be abused is placing boundaries, i.e. LIMITS on what you will give so this becomes conditional love.

 

No, allowing someone to abuse you is not being kind to yourself and it isn't being kind to the abuser, ie, they will suffer the consequences of their hateful actions. 

Uncondictional love is what you give, time, money, kindness and generosity for example, but you are putting limits on what you recieve - yes! Putting a limit on someones bad behaviour is love. Allowing it to continue isn't even love, so it cannot be unconditional love either!

I can feel compassion in the face of extreme aggression, I can understand and forgive, I dont feel the need to agress back, there is no need for any kind of rebuke, so at that exact same time I don't have to take someones hate either.

So I can give of myself uncondictioanlly! Only caring for the others happiness and well being, but putting a stop to someones abuse isn't placing LIMITS upon your kindness, it is in fact kindness in and of itself. Yes we might get a ton of verbal or even physical abuse, like Gandhi being beaten and imprisoned, and we can accept that, but we cannot except injustice. So we fight injustice with unconditional love.

People give their very lives in the name of love, that would be unconditional no limits love. But they cannot do that whilst accepting abuse and injustice. 

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sees

Yes I understand that placing limits on giving/loving is being self respecting.  However unconditional love is non judgemental, all embracing, all accepting....WITHOUT conditions!!!  Do you see the conflict here and why boundaries (whilst being necessary and understandable) do not represent unconditional love?

Edited by sees
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Crazy Horse
9 minutes ago, sees said:

Yes I understand that placing limits on giving/loving is being self respecting.  However unconditional love is non judgemental, all embracing, all accepting....WITHOUT conditions!!!  Do you see the conflict here and why boundaries (whilst being necessary and understandable) do not represent unconditional love?

Not really!

I understand what you are getting at but I just don't agree fundamentally.

I do agree with you, unconditional love is non-judgemental, all embracing and all accepting without conditions. I agree 100%, but I can, on a good day, I can be non judgemental, embracing and accepting someones hate, but at that same moment I can say no more! Eg, what is done is done, fine, there is absolutely no need for judgement, and yes I can embrace this opportunity to grow, and I can accept it because of those other things. But this is no reason to allow it to continue.

To allow such behaviour to continue is not being kind to yourself or to the other. 

Therefor, to put a stop to it, in the most compassionate way you can imagine, is being kind, to allow it to continue isn't being kind. So allowing it to continue for a long time isn't demonstrating love at all!  The putting a stop to it, in a compassionate way, that is love.

 

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sees

I understand your reasoning and I agree that it is necessary to put conditions on what will be tolerated BUT this is NOT unconditional love!  Compassionate love is wonderful but it is still prone to being conditional.

The word unconditional, explicitly means without conditions.  You are not using the term in its correct sense but changing the goalpost and still wanting to say its unconditional.  That's like saying grey is really black...just with a little white thrown in!  headshake.gif

 

Edited by sees
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Crazy Horse

Sees, in a nut shell you are saying that we must allow any behaviour, even abuse, if we want to consider ourselves as expressing unconditional love - and I am saying, that to allow abusive behaviour to continue isn't even love, let alone unconditional love. That's the crux of it. 

Your first point was that unconditional love can lead to being treated like a doormat, and abusive patterns, but it doesn't. It would give you the strengh to say "NO".

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sees
13 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Sees, in a nut shell you are saying that we must allow any behaviour, even abuse, if we want to consider ourselves as expressing unconditional love - and I am saying, that to allow abusive behaviour to continue isn't even love, let alone unconditional love. That's the crux of it. 

Your first point was that unconditional love can lead to being treated like a doormat, and abusive patterns, but it doesn't. It would give you the strengh to say "NO".

No I am not!  I am questioning the desirability of unconditonal love.  I said so in my first post here...i.e. I have reservations about it.   I am strongly in favour on placing boundaries and think compassionate love is a better goal.

Edited by sees
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Crazy Horse
8 minutes ago, sees said:

I understand your reasoning and I agree that it is necessary to put conditions on what will be tolerated BUT this is NOT unconditional love!  Compassionate love is wonderful but it is still prone to being conditional.

The word unconditional, explicitly means without conditions.  You are not using the term in its correct sense but changing the goalpost and still wanting to say its unconditional.  That's like me saying grey is really black...just with a little white thrown in!  headshake.gif

 

The moving of the goal posts is a long lost art form. Watch and learn.

I can understand someone, not judge them, accept their poor behaviour etc, that is one thing, but wanting them to stop isnt a condition but a request. It is essentially an expression of love. We ask them to stop. Our love isnt conditional on whether they stop or not, We dont stop loving them, but we no longer accept this bad behaviour to continue because to do so would be unkind to all involved.

So it is more an ultimatum to "shape up or ship out."

Not a loss of love, not a condiction of love, but a request and ultimatum to change or leave. It becomes their choice - your love is intact.

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White Unicorn
50 minutes ago, sees said:

I understand your reasoning and I agree that it is necessary to put conditions on what will be tolerated BUT this is NOT unconditional love!  Compassionate love is wonderful but it is still prone to being conditional.

The word unconditional, explicitly means without conditions.  You are not using the term in its correct sense but changing the goalpost and still wanting to say its unconditional.  That's like saying grey is really black...just with a little white thrown in!  headshake.gif

 

Unconditional love is loving the sinner but not their sins. 

I think that's what Crazy Horse be is trying to say. 

Actions of the hate of another shows their lack of compassion and justice, their own fears are overcoming them and that lash out at someone to feel empowered. 

I've experienced that from someone. I have no hate toward him. I had rebellion to the unjust actions against myself and others.  I told him that I understood why he was acting that way (fear for his job) and still loved him, I forgive you. You have made me stronger and the effects of your actions toward me actually gave me a better life and I thank you. That freaked him out, when I thanked him for acting badly toward me because I was better off by his actions in the long run! 

 

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sees

OK I understand now.  From the one giving unconditional love, to ask for boundaries doesn't mean the person/recipient is unloved.  However, the other person/recipient - in feeling their behaviour is unacceptable (needing to tow the line) - may still well feel that the love given is conditional/not all embracing.  I guess it depends on how lightly (but firmly) the boundaries are dealt with....and how the love is shown aside from this issue.   It makes me think of a parent and child....overall the child will still feel loved if not too harshly (and frequently) scolded.

So....is someone smacks your face, would you offer the other cheek (as Jesus suggested)?  :unsure2:

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third_eye

You know ... I always felt that 'Love thy enemy' is a poor transliteration of the Commandment ...

I rather understand it to mean something closer to 'No need to Hate thy enemy'

~

Only after that can one know if an enemy can be ultimately defeated and be rendered a Friend  ...

~

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sees
3 minutes ago, third_eye said:

You know ... I always felt that 'Love thy enemy' is a poor transliteration of the Commandment ...

I rather understand it to mean something closer to 'No need to Hate thy enemy'

~

Only after that can one know if an enemy can be ultimately defeated and be rendered a Friend  ...

~

"In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher"  Dalai Lama

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third_eye
Just now, sees said:

"In the practise of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher"  Dalai Lama

Yeah that's a very old one ... the Dalai kinda hijacked it by translating it into English ...

:lol:

~

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Crazy Horse
32 minutes ago, White Unicorn said:

Unconditional love is loving the sinner but not their sins. 

I think that's what Crazy Horse be is trying to say. 

Actions of the hate of another shows their lack of compassion and justice, their own fears are overcoming them and that lash out at someone to feel empowered. 

I've experienced that from someone. I have no hate toward him. I had rebellion to the unjust actions against myself and others.  I told him that I understood why he was acting that way (fear for his job) and still loved him, I forgive you. You have made me stronger and the effects of your actions toward me actually gave me a better life and I thank you. That freaked him out, when I thanked him for acting badly toward me because I was better off by his actions in the long run! 

 

Yes - love the sinner not the sin.

The fact that you took a positive view, an understanding view, instead of some form of anger, actually made you stronger and you even expressed your gratitude! No wonder he was freaked out!

I wonder what happened after the "shock", did he ease up?

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third_eye

All this reminds me of the epic final battle ...

~

 

[00.05:32]

~

" Do you wanna learn ? I'll teach you ... "

:yes:

Top Notch ...

~

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Crazy Horse
13 minutes ago, sees said:

"In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher"  Dalai Lama

I would say that understanding one's enemy would be best?

To be fair to HH Dalai Lama, he is talking about practicing tolerance and so yeah, one's enemy is one's best teacher.

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Crazy Horse
21 minutes ago, third_eye said:

You know ... I always felt that 'Love thy enemy' is a poor transliteration of the Commandment ...

I rather understand it to mean something closer to 'No need to Hate thy enemy'

~

Only after that can one know if an enemy can be ultimately defeated and be rendered a Friend  ...

~

It has been said that, "understanding replaces forgiveness in the mind of the Master."

 

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third_eye
1 minute ago, Crazy Horse said:

It has been said that, "understanding replaces forgiveness in the mind of the Master."

 

Yeah I remember that lesson well ... there is nothing to forgive when there is nothing to wrong ...

~

Something from John and Yoko ...

 

 

 

[00.015:01]

~

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Crazy Horse
11 minutes ago, third_eye said:

All this reminds me of the epic final battle ...

~

 

[00.05:32]

~

" Do you wanna learn ? I'll teach you ... "

:yes:

Top Notch ...

~

Excellent clip.

Did you ever see "Journey to the West - conquering demons" thats my type of movie.

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third_eye
1 minute ago, Crazy Horse said:

Excellent clip.

Did you ever see "Journey to the West - conquering demons" thats my type of movie.

Hmmmm nope ... :lol:

~

Mainly because it tries to do a Stephen Chow without Stephen Chow ...

~

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simplybill

The phrase ‘Turn the other cheek’ is often taken out of context. In the context of Roman-ruled Israel, it was meant to be an appeal for equality. From Wikipedia:

“The scholar Walter Wink, in his book Engaging the Powers: Discernment and Resistance in a World of Domination, interprets the passage as ways to subvert the power structures of the time.

At the time of Jesus, says Wink, striking with the back of the hand a person, who was deemed to be of a lower socioeconomic class, was used as a means to assert authority and dominance. If the persecuted person "turned the other cheek," the discipliner was faced with a dilemma: The left hand was used for unclean purposes, so a back-hand strike on the opposite cheek would not be performed. An alternative would be a slap with the open hand as a challenge or to punch the person, but this was seen as a statement of equality. Thus, by turning the other cheek, the persecuted was demanding equality.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek

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Crazy Horse
41 minutes ago, sees said:

 

So....is someone smacks your face, would you offer the other cheek (as Jesus suggested)?  :unsure2:

 

I think there are times like what White Unicorn described in post #12 when demonstrating this kind of love can have a profound affect. An understanding, a forgiving and even a show of gratitude.

I think turning the other cheek is a high ideal. 

Humans have a fight or flight responce but we can also talk and express a deep love without words.

So to be honest, it would entirely depend on a particular situation.  

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