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ChrLzs

Review - Sheldrake's "Dogs Who Know When..

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Derek Willis
58 minutes ago, Scepticus said:

I am bit skeptical of your simplistic rhetoric. 

Simply because there is no suggestion in the surrounding text, to indicate telepathy & premonition are not accepted by "mainstream science", the observer should not automatically assume the statement is to be considered a fact. That would be unscientific

The statement "it's a book, not a thesis" leads me to believe you don't have knowledge of what a thesis is. A thesis is making a point, using your research to back up the point. 

I have not read the book, hence I look forward to your review. 

If I wrote: "The Earth moves around the Sun and the Moon is made of cheese" what would you think I am trying to do?

Edit: And do you think the author is truly attempting to be scientific?

Edited by Derek Willis
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Derek Willis
9 hours ago, Piney said:

They sometimes use "cadaver dogs" at old crime scenes and archaeology sites. Some part of victim was still there. 

That is an interesting thought, and may be what was going on.

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Lysippos
56 minutes ago, Timonthy said:

Well if the first part didn’t do it, the second did:

"This book focuses on three types of perceptiveness: telepathy, the sense of direction and premonitions, and demonstrates how human psychic powers or sixth senses seem more natural, more biological, when seen in the light of animal behavior."

That is directly suggesting that humans have psychic powers or sixth senses.

Opinion & fact should be distinguished. 

At this point, the statement is an opinion and should not be treated as a fact. 

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Timothy
2 minutes ago, Scepticus said:

Opinion & fact should be distinguished. 

At this point, the statement is an opinion and should not be treated as a fact. 

I guess we don’t know if he wrote that before or after completing the experiment/writing the book too.

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Lysippos
1 hour ago, Derek Willis said:

If I wrote: "The Earth moves around the Sun and the Moon is made of cheese" what would you think I am trying to do?

Edit: And do you think the author is truly attempting to be scientific?

1. Being wrongly simplistic.

2. There is not enough data, as of yet, to make an informed conclusion & give a answer to your question, which I am satisfied & comfortable with. 

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Derek Willis
31 minutes ago, Scepticus said:

1. Being wrongly simplistic.

2. There is not enough data, as of yet, to make an informed conclusion & give a answer to your question, which I am satisfied & comfortable with. 

I am equating a piece of nonsense with a fact in order to mislead the reader into thinking the nonsense is also a fact. This is a common technique used by authors such as Erich von Daniken.

Hence, "surrounding text" is not needed in order to draw a conclusion regarding what Sheldrake is attempting to do. From the outset he wants people to accept that telepathy etc. are "facts".

Now, I am not quite sure if you were saying ChrLzs wasn't being "scientific" or whether Sheldrake wasn't being "scientific". It is obvious Sheldrake wasn't being scientific for the reason I have just described. I think you will find - love him or hate him - ChrLzs is invariably scientific.

Edit: Note to ChrLzs - we haven't gotten past the front cover yet so you may have committed yourself to a loooooonnnngggg process...

Edited by Derek Willis
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Herr Falukorv

When I was young and lived with my parents we had a cat (Ceasar) who you almost never saw in the days when he was outside.
It didnt matter how many times I called for him he never came.
I guess he had some nice cozy place where he was sheltered from the weather.

Anyway.
Everyday when my parents came home from work he was sitting on my parents parking spot greating them.
There are ten villas on a cul-de-sac who share a parking space and garage.
We thought this was very cute and fun but we never believed he had any premonition or some secret sence.

My father told me that when he came home with his company car and if he met Ceasar outside the house Ceasar acted strange everytime.
Probably because it didnt fit the rutine Ceasar had.. How could my dad miraculously appear without the car he was used to come with.
the cat was allways on guard and reserved on these occasions.

The thing is that when my parents bought a new car Ceasar didnt come to great them until a couple of weeks later,
when he had learned the sound of the new car of course. 
I remember once when I sat on the porch and doing my homework Ceasar was lying in my knee pretending to sleep.
Suddenly he came awake and just ran down to the car park.
Maybe 10 seconds later I heard a car coming and lo and behold it was my parents.

He just had a better sence of hearing than me or anyone,

Edited by Herr Falukorv
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Lysippos
44 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

I am equating a piece of nonsense with a fact in order to mislead the reader into thinking the nonsense is also a fact. This is a common technique used by authors such as Erich von Daniken.

Hence, "surrounding text" is not needed in order to draw a conclusion regarding what Sheldrake is attempting to do. From the outset he wants people to accept that telepathy etc. are "facts".

Now, I am not quite sure if you were saying ChrLzs wasn't being "scientific" or whether Sheldrake wasn't being "scientific". It is obvious Sheldrake wasn't being scientific for the reason I have just described. I think you will find - love him or hate him - ChrLzs is invariably scientific.

Edit: Note to ChrLzs - we haven't gotten past the front cover yet so you may have committed yourself to a loooooonnnngggg process...

Any observer who do not suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, most likely, would recognise the sentence from post 26 should not be compared with the paragraph, which is currently being discussed.  

 

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Derek Willis
1 hour ago, Scepticus said:

Any observer who do not suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, most likely, would recognise the sentence from post 26 should not be compared with the paragraph, which is currently being discussed.  

 

Hey, Scepticus, I hope you aren't insulting me here ...

I would have said that anyone not suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect would, most likely, have seen I was exaggerating to make a point. We all know the Moon isn't made of cheese (don't we?).

Perhaps you are not familiar enough with the little tricks used by people such as Rupert Sheldrake and Erich von Daniken. I think enough time has been wasted on your pointless and pedantic examination of a couple of sentences on the inside cover of the book. It is obvious what Sheldrake was doing. So, let us wait for ChrLzs to get into the meat of the book ...

 

Edited by Derek Willis

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Lysippos
38 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

Hey, Scepticus, I hope you aren't insulting me here ...

I would have said that anyone not suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect would, most likely, have seen I was exaggerating to make a point. We all know the Moon isn't made of cheese (don't we?).

Perhaps you are not familiar enough with the little tricks used by people such as Rupert Sheldrake and Erich von Daniken. I think enough time has been wasted on your pointless and pedantic examination of a couple of sentences on the inside cover of the book. It is obvious what Sheldrake was doing. So, let us wait for ChrLzs to get into the meat of the book ...

Edit: For some reason I am thinking of an interview the spoof character Ali G did with Buzz Aldrin:

Ali G: "So, Mister Haldrin, you was da first man to walk on da sun."

Buzz: "No, I was the second man to walk on the moon. No one can walk on the sun."

Ali G; "Why is dat?"

Buzz: "Because the sun is a ball of extremely hot gas."

Ali G: "I see. Well, you can't walk on da moon either."

Buzz: "Why not?"

Ali G: "Because da moon is made of cream cheese."

At this point Buzz realized it was a wind-up - but refrained from whacking Ali G in the jaw! 

 

If you felt insulted, please note I did not attempt to insult you. 

But I will stand by my post & strongly disagree with the above marked in bold. 

I am not familiar with Rupert Sheldrake & I appreciate someone is taking the time to review a book of his. By the end, I'll know a bit more about the author & his research methods.

If Erich von Daniken, is the ancient alien theorist, then yes I have heard of the man. But have very limited knowledge of his work. 

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Lysippos
50 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

Edit: For some reason I am thinking of an interview the spoof character Ali G did with Buzz Aldrin:

Ali G: "So, Mister Haldrin, you was da first man to walk on da sun."

Buzz: "No, I was the second man to walk on the moon. No one can walk on the sun."

Ali G; "Why is dat?"

Buzz: "Because the sun is a ball of extremely hot gas."

Ali G: "I see. Well, you can't walk on da moon either."

Buzz: "Why not?"

Ali G: "Because da moon is made of cream cheese."

At this point Buzz realized it was a wind-up - but refrained from whacking Ali G in the jaw! 

 

I am trying to understand the reference. 

Are you the Ali G character? 

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Derek Willis
1 minute ago, Scepticus said:

If you felt insulted, please note I did not attempt to insult you. 

But I will stand by my post & strongly disagree with the above marked in bold. 

I am not familiar with Rupert Sheldrake & I appreciate someone is taking the time to review a book of his. By the end, I'll know a bit more about the author & his research methods.

If Erich von Daniken, is the ancient alien theorist, then yes I have heard of the man. But have very limited knowledge of his work. 

I wasn't really insulted - I was making a joke ...

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Derek Willis
9 minutes ago, Scepticus said:

I am trying to understand the reference. 

Are you the Ali G character? 

No, Ali G was the alter ego of a brilliant comedian called Sacha Baron Cohen. I just added his interview with Buzz Aldrin to fill in some time until we hear back from ChrLzs, and to divert you away from lingering on a couple of sentences on the inside cover of Sheldrake's book ...

Edit: I have just noticed that I accidentally edited out the reference to Ali G and Buzz in my post. Never mind.

Edit again. Are you saying you strongly disagree that (a) I was exaggerating to make a point, or (b) anyone not suffering from ... never mind, I have lost the will to live.

Edited by Derek Willis

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Liquid Gardens
7 hours ago, Scepticus said:

The statement "it's a book, not a thesis" leads me to believe you don't have knowledge of what a thesis is. 

I'm actually wondering the same thing about you.  A book can include anything, there are no requirements.  A thesis as I'm pretty sure ChrLzs is using it is the same as a dissertation, a research paper created for the purposes of obtaining an advanced degree.  It's more akin to a scientific paper for publication in that it is evaluated and scrutinized by experts in relevant fields, which doesn't necessarily apply to just a plain ol' book, so he's right to differentiate between them.

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Lysippos
10 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm actually wondering the same thing about you.  A book can include anything, there are no requirements.  A thesis as I'm pretty sure ChrLzs is using it is the same as a dissertation, a research paper created for the purposes of obtaining an advanced degree.  It's more akin to a scientific paper for publication in that it is evaluated and scrutinized by experts in relevant fields, which doesn't necessarily apply to just a plain ol' book, so he's right to differentiate between them.

No. 

What you are poorly attempting to describe is the final research paper, which must include a thesis to achieve the "advanced" degree. Hence why they are often called a "thesis" paper. 

 

 

 

Edited by Scepticus

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Derek Willis
6 minutes ago, Scepticus said:

No. 

What you are poorly attempting to describe is the final research paper, which must include a thesis to achieve the "advanced" degree. Hence why they are often called a "thesis" paper. 

Well, there is the general meaning of "thesis", and that is a proposition put forward and which is defended in argument; and then there is the more popular meaning, i.e. a research paper submitted towards gaining a qualification of some sort. I am sure ChrLzs will explain what he had in mind when he used the word.

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Lysippos
14 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

Well, there is the general meaning of "thesis", and that is a proposition put forward and which is defended in argument; and then there is the more popular meaning, i.e. a research paper submitted towards gaining a qualification of some sort. I am sure ChrLzs will explain what he had in mind when he used the word.

Is this a test of patience? :D 

The research paper submitted towards gaining a postgraduate or doctorate degree, is the FINAL research paper which MUST include a thesis. 

Anyone who has had to tackle a thesis would be offended by the simplistic view. A thesis is hard work.

Edited by Scepticus

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Liquid Gardens
44 minutes ago, Scepticus said:

No. 

What you are poorly attempting to describe is the final research paper, which must include a thesis to achieve the "advanced" degree. Hence why they are often called a "thesis" paper. 

No.

What you are poorly attempting to refute is that, at least in the US, the 'final research paper' is also called 'a thesis'.  From wiki:

"A thesis or dissertation[1] is a document submitted in support of candidature for an academic degree or professional qualification presenting the author's research and findings.[2] In some contexts, the word "thesis" or a cognate is used for part of a bachelor's or master's course, while "dissertation" is normally applied to a doctorate, while in other contexts, the reverse is true.[3] The term graduate thesis is sometimes used to refer to both master's theses and doctoral dissertations.[4]"

There are two definitions in play, you are only referring to one.  The final research paper which includes a 'thesis' (under it's general definition: "a statement or theory that is put forward as a premise to be maintained or proved.", the definition you are using) is, in the US, referred to as 'a thesis' (other definition: 'a long essay or dissertation involving personal research, written by a candidate for a college degree.').

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Lysippos
33 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

No.

What you are poorly attempting to refute is that, at least in the US, the 'final research paper' is also called 'a thesis'.  From wiki:

"A thesis or dissertation[1] is a document submitted in support of candidature for an academic degree or professional qualification presenting the author's research and findings.[2]  In some contexts, the word "thesis" or a cognate is used for part of a bachelor's or master's course, while "dissertation" is normally applied to a doctorate, while in other contexts, the reverse is true.[3] The term graduate thesis is sometimes used to refer to both master's theses and doctoral dissertations.[4]"

There are two definitions in play, you are only referring to one.  The final research paper which includes a 'thesis' (under it's general definition: "a statement or theory that is put forward as a premise to be maintained or proved.", the definition you are using) is, in the US, referred to as 'a thesis' (other definition: 'a long essay or dissertation involving personal research, written by a candidate for a college degree.').

Oh god.

Where to begin. 

Look up the reference to the paragraph "is a document submitted in support of candidature for an academic degree or professional qualification presenting the author's research and findings"

Do you know what ISO stands for? 

From

ISO 7144:1986. 

Is applicable to theses in book form, as parts of books, as periodical articles, as typescripts, and as a set of separate publications. Apply to theses reproduced in the following forms: - composed and printed; - in identical form or with reduction (for example from A4 to A5); - in microform.

Jhttps://www.iso.org/standard/13736.html

There are not 2 definitions in play, I just highly suspect you have no real knowledge of what a thesis is and simply have a hard time understanding the subject. 

A thesis is making a case/proving a point, by using your research to back it up. Which i have already pointed out in this thread. 

Please re-read my posts related to this thesis discussion. 

If you still have a hard time grasping the matter, I would recommend doing a postgraduate or doctorate degree. 

Please don't be a victim of the Dunning-Kruger effect. 

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Liquid Gardens
13 minutes ago, Scepticus said:

There are not 2 definitions in play, I just highly suspect you have no real knowledge of what a thesis is and simply have a hard time understanding the subject. 

There are, I highly suspect you are for some reason just avoiding consulting a dictionary:

  1. 1.
    a statement or theory that is put forward as a premise to be maintained or proved.
    "his central thesis is that psychological life is not part of the material world"
    synonyms: theory, contention, argument, line of argument, proposal, proposition, idea, claim, premise, assumption, hypothesis, postulation, supposition
    "the central thesis of his lecture"
    •  
  2. 2.
    a long essay or dissertation involving personal research, written by a candidate for a college degree.
    "a doctoral thesis"
    synonyms: dissertation, essay, paper, treatise, disquisition, composition, monograph, study
    "a doctoral thesis"

Revisiting your quote, "What you are poorly attempting to describe is the final research paper, which must include a thesis to achieve the "advanced" degree."; since you are saying that a thesis is a part of the final research paper and not synonymous with it, you are referring to definition 1 above.  Definition 2 notes that what you are calling 'the final research paper' is also called a thesis, which I'm pretty sure is what ChrLzs is referring to.  So a thesis (definition 2) written by degree candidates must include a thesis (definition 1) as part of it, along with all the research to support the thesis (definition 1).

 

Edited by Liquid Gardens

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Lysippos
10 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

There are, I highly suspect you are for some reason just avoiding consulting a dictionary:

  1. 1.
    a statement or theory that is put forward as a premise to be maintained or proved.
    "his central thesis is that psychological life is not part of the material world"
    synonyms: theory, contention, argument, line of argument, proposal, proposition, idea, claim, premise, assumption, hypothesis, postulation, supposition
    "the central thesis of his lecture"
    •  
  2. 2.
    a long essay or dissertation involving personal research, written by a candidate for a college degree.
    "a doctoral thesis"
    synonyms: dissertation, essay, paper, treatise, disquisition, composition, monograph, study
    "a doctoral thesis"

Revisiting your quote, "What you are poorly attempting to describe is the final research paper, which must include a thesis to achieve the "advanced" degree."; since you are saying that a thesis is a part of the final research paper and not synonymous with it, you are referring to definition 1 above.  Definition 2 notes that what you are calling 'the final research paper' is also called a thesis, which I'm pretty sure is what ChrLzs is referring to.  So a thesis (definition 2) written by degree candidates must include a thesis (definition 1) as part of it, along with all the research to support the thesis (definition 1).

 

No, once again you display a lack of understanding  I highly suspect it's because you have never had to do a thesis. 

This is the full paragraph. 

"What you are poorly attempting to describe is the final research paper, which must include a thesis to achieve the "advanced" degree. Hence why they are often called a "thesis" paper." 

 

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Liquid Gardens
2 minutes ago, Scepticus said:

"What you are poorly attempting to describe is the final research paper, which must include a thesis to achieve the "advanced" degree. Hence why they are often called a "thesis" paper." 

Sigh.  It is also often just called a 'thesis', not just a 'thesis paper'.  The 'final research paper' is synonymous with what you are calling a 'thesis paper' which I've shown is synonymous with just 'thesis' or 'dissertation'.  

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ShadowSot

Why am I not surprised we've gone into semantics already? 

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oldrover

I think this thread is going to be very interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing the next installment. 

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Derek Willis
4 hours ago, Scepticus said:

Is this a test of patience? :D 

The research paper submitted towards gaining a postgraduate or doctorate degree, is the FINAL research paper which MUST include a thesis. 

Anyone who has had to tackle a thesis would be offended by the simplistic view. A thesis is hard work.

What is your post graduate or doctoral degree in? And at which university did you do it/them?

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