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Setton

Trump to recognise Jerusalem

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third_eye

Conveniently forgotten and ignored ...
 

Quote

 

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The forgotten plight of Palestinian Christians – Foreign Policy

foreignpolicy.com/2010/04/06/the-forgotten-plight-of-palestinian-christians/
Apr 6, 2010 - Christians around the world have just finished celebrating the Easter holiday–and thousands did so by making the annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem (where the Church of Holy Sepulchre is one of Christianity's most revered sites). Yet for many Palestinian Christians who have attempted to make this journey, ...
 
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Forgotten Christians - If Americans Knew

ifamericaknew.org/history/christians.html

Many of those watching the movie on this occasion are Palestinian Christian refugees whose parents or grandparents were purged from their homeland—the land of Christ—at the foundation of Israel in 1948. For them the movie has an underlying symbolic meaning not easily perceived in the West: not only is it a depiction ...

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The Palestinian Christians: Forsaken and Forgotten | Peace for friend ...

Dec 24, 2015 - Palestinian Christians offered a personal religious experience, which they faithfully taught in their well-attended ethical schools. Their work and scholarship helped the spread of their faith to Asia Minor, North Africa, Greece, and Rome.
 
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Jul 22, 2014 - As the violence between the Israelis and the Moslems of Gaza escalates once again, here are some thoughts about the forgotten Christians of the Holy Land sparked by “recent Pilgrimages and conversations”: frpanayiotis-dsc_1563001-small1 During the recent visit of Pope Francis and the Ecumenical ...

~

 

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pallidin

There was relative peace (barring occasional skirmishes) in Jerusalem since 2014, but now it may well devolve into another round of continuous, bloody confrontational disagreement.

Religious territorial disputes, particularly that which involves dual "holy sites", can get very nasty... With much bloodshed.

Perhaps the UN could designate Jerusalem as a "shared, neutral city" without either side having Capital declaration.

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RavenHawk
11 hours ago, odas said:

Maybe. But how do you explain palestinian christians abroad having small palestinian flags in their cars? Canada is a free country and they do not have to be afraid, yet stil.....

Why shouldn’t They be flying Palestinian flags?  Or maybe you think they should be flying Chinese flags??  People of the American South fly the Stars and Bars when abroad.  Others wear T-shirts with the image of Che or Guy Fawkes masks.  It is just people’s way of showing support of some idea.  In their case, it is to support the safety of those back home.  I have a friend who is a Syrian Christian.  Him and his family are naturalized citizens.  They have a Syrian flag hanging in the garage.  He tells me that Syrian Christians support Assad.  I’ve asked him why?  Isn’t he a tyrant?  The reply is, yes he is but they are shown less prejudice from a secular/Shiite ruler than the Sunni majority and it is their home.  The Middle East is perhaps where you’ll find the oldest of Christian groups.  They are not easily chased off but this family took flight some 14 years ago.  They still have family in Syria and have been concerned with the events of the past few years.  Why aren’t people as worried about this group or even the Yazidis (as much as the Palestinian Christians)?  Maybe if it was a radical Jewish sect trying to dominate that region?

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CrimsonKing
39 minutes ago, Setton said:

Palestinians recognise Texas as part of Mexico :-D

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2017/12/palestinians-recognize-texas-part-mexico/

Cool...i doubt a bunch of Texans will be loading up the GUNS over it :lol:

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kartikg
12 hours ago, odas said:

Maybe. But how do you explain palestinian christians abroad having small palestinian flags in their cars? Canada is a free country and they do not have to be afraid, yet stil.....

Well first of all I don't think Palestine is an open society where if you have Israeli flag on your car you will be treated like in Canada, Palestinian Christians having Palestinian flag just shows their opinion as everyone is free to express in a very open society. 

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RavenHawk
51 minutes ago, Setton said:

Palestinians recognise Texas as part of Mexico :-D

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2017/12/palestinians-recognize-texas-part-mexico/

That’s an intelligent response.  Why don’t we just recognize all land everywhere belonging to its original owners.  That would pretty much dissolve all nations we know today.  But where would that stop?  Going back to the Stone Age?

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RavenHawk
12 hours ago, third_eye said:

Conveniently forgotten and ignored ...
 

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I’ve already mentioned this, but Americans know so don’t act like we are unaware.  The situation with the Palestinian Christian is certainly a crying shame but when you are cutting out the cancer, one can’t help but get healthy tissue too.  But if you don’t like that then you should understand that with 7 billion people on this planet, you can’t please everybody.  It is a physical impossibility.

 

But if you are so concerned with minority groups, did you feel moved to warn Americans about the treatment of Assyrian Christians and Yazidis at the hands of Sunnis in the past few years?  Or do you think that Palestinian Christians being mistreated by Jews is worse than the treatment of non-Muslims by ISIS?

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skliss

Isn't the Israeli govt based in Jerusalem? Their Parliment is there, their Supreme Court is there, etc. It's kinda ridiculous to have our Embassy in another city anyway.

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Farmer77
11 minutes ago, skliss said:

Isn't the Israeli govt based in Jerusalem? Their Parliment is there, their Supreme Court is there, etc. It's kinda ridiculous to have our Embassy in another city anyway.

This would be the first decent reason ive heard for doing this.  

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.ZZ.

 

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ExpandMyMind
On 2017-12-7 at 5:28 PM, skliss said:

Not only that, but there was no such thing as "Palestine" until the 1960's. 

This is completely and utterly untrue. In fact it is a conspiracy theory that ruined Joan Peters' career and is actualy laughed out of Israel's own universities. 

Palestinian nationalism has existed since the early 1900s and it formed in response to Zionism. This is how nationalism often is birthed - in response to an external threat. Read through a brief history of nationalism and you will see this to be true (Poland was born through a similar type of scenario).

The British Mandate of Palestine itself completely disproves that there was no such thing as Palestine.

As early as the early 1920s, Palestinians were issued Palestinian passports and in all of the relevant British documents from that era, they were referred to as Palestinians and the place as Palestine. 

But, that there was no such place as Israel before 1948 is an indisputable fact. So, really, your own faulty claim works against the case you're trying to make.

Edited by ExpandMyMind
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ExpandMyMind
On 2017-12-7 at 4:01 PM, Lilly said:

Continuing to fight this war: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/six-day-war-begins  isn't going to help matters though. In 1967 the Arab states massed a huge army on Israel's border and Israel decided to fight and ultimately won. That was 50 years ago, time to deal with the here and now.

 

This is not true. Israeli intelligence, the Israeli military, their leaders and politicians, world leaders (including the Americans), the UN and others have all stated that Nasser was not going to attack. This is documented history: Israel started this war of aggression, not the Arabs - and the theft of land (and continual theft of land with the settlements) has been the main cause of conflict ever since.

Edited by ExpandMyMind
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Setton
1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

That’s an intelligent response.  Why don’t we just recognize all land everywhere belonging to its original owners.  That would pretty much dissolve all nations we know today.  But where would that stop?  Going back to the Stone Age?

 

Its always fun to post satire to see who falls for it... 

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odas
1 hour ago, kartikg said:

Well first of all I don't think Palestine is an open society where if you have Israeli flag on your car you will be treated like in Canada, Palestinian Christians having Palestinian flag just shows their opinion as everyone is free to express in a very open society. 

You are retracting. You said that palestinian christians cheer for Palestine because they are afraid of their neihhbours. So why are they doing it in other countries outside Palestine?

Also. the person whose nick is ravenh. if possible not to convers with me as he is on my ignor list like so many others have done it already.

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ExpandMyMind
On 2017-12-7 at 4:12 PM, RavenHawk said:

No, it wasn’t their land.

You might want to read up on the right to self determination. It's a very basic concept, and, incidentally, it's the reason that Israel even exists and has any legitimacy. It was their - the Palestinians - land, whether or not it had been controlled by an outside force.

On 2017-12-7 at 4:12 PM, RavenHawk said:

Under the Ottoman Empire, most Fellahin were migrant farmers or semi-nomadic herders that squatted on lands owned by others.

Are you trying to claim here that the people living in Palestine were migrants? Because according to the Ottoman's own, rather meticulous, records, this has long been debunked. The population of Palestine has been shown to have lived there more or less all throughout the Ottoman and British occupations. There were migrants, but it was more a case of seasonal work, with Palestinians leaving and then returning and other Arabs coming and then going. 

On 2017-12-7 at 4:12 PM, RavenHawk said:

ure Palestinians were able to rightfully purchase lands and acquired proper deeds.  Most were too poor to purchase the land.  So bogus deeds were a dime a dozen.  The Land reforms of 1858 was an attempt to clean this up but even the British were unable to straighten it out by the time the Mandate ended.

During the Mandate the Palestinians owned the overwhelming majority of land, and in fact the British actually made it illegal for Jews to purchase land because with their European wealth they were taking advantage of financially poor Palestinian landowners. It seems like you are basically trying to say that the opposite is true.

Also, it doesn't matter who 'bought' land. The Chinese are buying up large swaths of Canada as we speak, but that doesn't somehow mean they have more - or indeed any - claim to Canada than Canadians.

On 2017-12-7 at 4:12 PM, RavenHawk said:

Between the two, Israel has the more ancient claim.

There is no such thing as an 'ancient claim' to land. This is simply religious nonsense. Do Australians have a claim to the UK? Do Scots have a claim to Scandanavia? In reality, the opposite is true. The more recent claim to land has more legal and moral basis. See: all ex colonies, including Israel. See, we're back the right to self determination again. It's the reason that I believe Israel has the right to exist now (though they certainly didn't when they were originally European immigrants invading another country). Israelis have been born on the land and therefore have the right to decide their own fate and identity. It's actually the only thing that gives Israel any legitimacy, yet pro Israeli internet posters for some reason think they can have this for Israelis but deny it to Palestinians. It is a blatant double standard that is easily ripped apart by employing only the most basic of logic to the situation.

On 2017-12-7 at 4:12 PM, RavenHawk said:

They have legally purchased more land than the Palestinians.

First, this is untrue:

On 31 December 1944, out of 1,732.63 dunums of land owned in Palestine by large Jewish Corporations and private owners, about 44% was in possession of Jewish National Fund

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

Second, as I mentioned before, much of this land was purchased illegally, since the British made it illegal.

Third, as I have shown previously, owning land does not equate to owning a country. You are conflating two separate issues. 

On 2017-12-7 at 4:12 PM, RavenHawk said:

And they have legally won territory as spoils of war.

Wow. When I saw this the other day there I simply couldn't believe what I was reading.

The right of conquest didn't exist when Israel was created. It directly conflicts with the right to self determination that was adopted by nations during WW1. 

Quote

The completion of colonial conquest of much of the world (see the Scramble for Africa), the devastation of World War I and World War II, and the alignment of both the United States and the Soviet Union with the principle of self-determination led to the abandonment of the right of conquest in formal international law. The 1928 Kellogg–Briand Pact, the post-1945 Nuremberg Trials, the UN Charter, and the UN role in decolonization saw the progressive dismantling of this principle. Simultaneously, the UN Charter's guarantee of the "territorial integrity" of member states effectively froze out claims against prior conquests from this process.

Considering that this so-called right was what led directly to WW2 (invasion of Poland to reclaim land taken from Germany), anyone can see that it has no place in society. And to claim that Israel 'legally' won anything through war is completely untrue.

On 2017-12-7 at 4:12 PM, RavenHawk said:

The Palestinian have continually rejected sharing the land with Israel, so they are the only ones responsible for their predicament.

Again, simply not true. First, they had no reason to want to share the land with an invasion force of Europeans. To try to claim that they should somehow have accepted these immigrants is quite laughable. Is there any country in the world that would accept such an invasion? I doubt very much that there is. Would you, if a large group of, say, Syrian immigrants did the same with the US? Do you see your moral dilemma when you try to push this narrative?

Second, there have been many signs over the decades that show the Palestinians have been willing to settle the dispute along the Armistace Lines (pre '67 borders), but throughout all negotiations Israel have expanded the buidling of settlements in the West Bank and added ridiculous conditions that they know no Palestinian leader could accept.

Third, to try to claim that Palestinians are responsible, when they are the victims and Israel are the aggressors, is actually laughable. It is the most heinous attempt at blaming the victim the world has ever seen. 

On 2017-12-7 at 4:12 PM, RavenHawk said:

The neighbors never wanted a Palestinian state established and realize that Israel would be a better neighbor

Again, you have presented another lie. The Egyptian and Jordanian occupation of the Palestinian territories were in a caretaker capacity. They were holding onto the land for different reasons, but always intended to give it back to the Palestinians.  

On 2017-12-7 at 4:12 PM, RavenHawk said:

Nothing has changed with the Palestinians since at least the early 1800s.  The terrorism of then is pretty much the same of today.

Do you have a source for this claim? In case you were not aware, it was Zionists who were the prolific terrorists during the Mandate.

Who do you think the Muslims learned it from?

The Lavon affair refers to a failed Israeli covert operation, code named Operation Susannah, conducted in Egypt in the Summer of 1954.[vague] As part of the false flag operation,[1] a group of Egyptian Jews were recruited by Israeli military intelligence to plant bombs inside Egyptian, American, and British-owned civilian targets, cinemas, libraries and American educational centers. The bombs were timed to detonate several hours after closing time. The attacks were to be blamed on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egyptian Communists, "unspecified malcontents" or "local nationalists" with the aim of creating a climate of sufficient violence and instability to induce the British government to retain its occupying troops in Egypt's Suez Canal zone.[2] The operation caused no casualties among the population, but did cost the lives of four operatives: two cell members who committed suicide after being captured; and two operatives who were tried, convicted, and executed by Egypt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

 

How do you think you can get away with all of this blatant lying? A quick Google search debunks just about every claim you have made here, and that was a lot of lies to wade through. I mean it's actually staggering just how completely and utterly false almost every single thing you have said here. I couldn't believe what I was reading when I first saw the post. 

Edited by ExpandMyMind
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ExpandMyMind
21 hours ago, pallidin said:

Huh. Seems as if this whole affair is going to seriously inflame militant Palestinians.

Doesn't take much to predict a whole new, and continuous, wave of car bombings, suicide bombers, cafe shootings and rocket fire over this.

Sad.

I don't think they will revert to suicide bombings. Hamas themselves renounced suicide bombing back in 2006. I think they realise that it is counter productive (also it must be noted that by that point it was also more difficult than it had been in the past).

I really, really hope they don't. I don't even agree with the largely symbolic rocket attacks.

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ExpandMyMind
21 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

The culture of the Fellahin was not one of statehood.  Statehood was for landowners. 

Statehood has no such prerequisites. Again, it's down to the right to self determination, as defined by international law. 

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ExpandMyMind
15 hours ago, kartikg said:

I don't think it's their land from legal point of view, they are as many people say here just squatters. 

Luckily your incorrect opinion has no bearing on the reality of the situation. How comical that you describe the indigenous population as 'squatters' and the aggressive invasion force the rightful owners. Your logic is entirely backwards.

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ExpandMyMind
2 hours ago, kartikg said:

Well first of all I don't think Palestine is an open society where if you have Israeli flag on your car you will be treated like in Canada, Palestinian Christians having Palestinian flag just shows their opinion as everyone is free to express in a very open society. 

Of course - it is an occupied land that has been in a constant state of war since 1967. I very much doubt the Chinese would have been happy seeing Japanese citizens flying the Japanese flag in their country in the 30s, do you?

Edited by ExpandMyMind

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CrimsonKing
1 hour ago, .ZZ. said:

 

But,but,but TRUMP said GOD DAMNIT!!!...are you not listening?...have you got a wooden ear? :huh: :angry: :lol:

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Farmer77
9 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

But,but,but TRUMP said GOD DAMNIT!!!...are you not listening?...have you got a wooden ear? 

I don't really care about the issue beyond wishing I knew how this benefitted America BUT I just cant resist making the comment: 

Being the only one not smart enough to realize he was supposed to be just duping the religious base with those campaign promises isn't really a bragging point :P

Sorry that was trash talk solely for the sport of it LOL 

Edited by Farmer77
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.ZZ.
8 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

But,but,but TRUMP said GOD DAMNIT!!!...are you not listening?...have you got a wooden ear? :huh: :angry: :lol:

Now the logic will turn to: "See! ALL American presidents are trash! I told you so! I have this great insight on American politics even if being parted by large distances!!"

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CrimsonKing
Just now, Farmer77 said:

I don't really care about the issue beyond wishing I knew how this benefitted America BUT I just cant resist making the comment: 

Being the only one not smart enough to realize he was supposed to be just duping the religious base with those campaign promises isn't really a bragging point 

As i said earlier,i don't really care one way or the other...meh 

As i also said earlier,he's now only the 4th president to give that exact speech...again meh

I now await the "it's because,well "BROWN PEOPLE!"...again meh

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