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Trump to recognise Jerusalem

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RAyMO
Just now, Paranormal Panther said:

All events are at "10" on the panic scale now. The calibration changed when Trump won the presidency.

You said it

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ExpandMyMind
7 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

The calibration changed when Trump won the presidency.

I think it changed when he started to have Twitter slagging matches with another unhinged leader of a nuclear power, to be fair :lol:

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Paranormal Panther
13 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

You said it

I said it. You confirmed it. :whistle:

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Paranormal Panther
6 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I think it changed when he started to have Twitter slagging matches with another unhinged leader of a nuclear power, to be fair :lol:

Let's just hope that "South Park" stays out of it. Something tells me that Kim Jong Un is more concerned with cartoons than his own country.

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RAyMO
11 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

I said it. You confirmed it. :whistle:

What is there to deny - Trump is, I will be kind here unpredictable, and not in a good way.

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Paranormal Panther
8 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

What is there to deny - Trump is, I will be kind here unpredictable, and not in a good way.

That may be true, but he beat the alternative in more ways than one. The Democrats picked the one terrible candidate that he could beat.

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RAyMO
Just now, Paranormal Panther said:

That may be true, but he beat the alternative in more ways than one. The Democrats picked the one terrible candidate that he could beat.

On that we can totally agree.

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ExpandMyMind
5 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

That may be true, but he beat the alternative in more ways than one. The Democrats picked the one terrible candidate that he could beat.

Bernie 2020!

If only that sort of vision had been employed in 2016.

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Paranormal Panther
Just now, ExpandMyMind said:

Bernie 2020!

If only that sort of vision had been employed in 2016.

He had a chance. They evidently made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

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AnchorSteam

The Capitol of Israel is Jerusalem.

They made a Law that says so, just to prove the point.

So, how hostile to the Israelis would you have to be, to put your Embassy 50 miles away? In what other nation in Earth is that even an option?

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ExpandMyMind
23 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

The Capitol of Israel is Jerusalem.

They made a Law that says so, just to prove the point.

So, how hostile to the Israelis would you have to be, to put your Embassy 50 miles away? In what other nation in Earth is that even an option?

Except Jerusalem was acquired through the act of war, which makes any claim to it inadmissible in international law. It's not their land. 

Only one country in the world has recognised the claim, and this was done for political reasons and condemned worldwide.

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kartikg
1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Except Jerusalem was acquired through the act of war, which makes any claim to it inadmissible in international law. It's not their land. 

Only one country in the world has recognised the claim, and this was done for political reasons and condemned worldwide.

Yes but that war was not one sided invasion by Israel, the Palestinians, Arab league and Jordan fought for the capture of the whole city, if they had won they would have kept the city, Israel won and is claiming the city. 

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ExpandMyMind
13 minutes ago, kartikg said:

Yes but that war was not one sided invasion by Israel, the Palestinians, Arab league and Jordan fought for the capture of the whole city, if they had won they would have kept the city, Israel won and is claiming the city. 

Then they would have been forced to leave - they would have been sanctioned, embargoed and possibly even bombed. The only reason action of some sort hasn't been taken against Israel is because the US continually blocks it, and I highly doubt they would have done the same if the situation was reversed.

The Armistace Lines declared Jerusalem 'corpus separatum' to avoid exactly the kind of controversy we see today. 

Quote

According to the plan the city would be placed under international regime, conferring it a special status due to its shared religious importance.

(I still think it being under international control would be the best action).

Since then it has been proposed that the city be shared by Israel and Palestine, due to its importance to both religions (not to mention Christian Palestinians). Is this really so unreasonable?

To your other points:

You cannot claim territory you acquire through war. This is clear in international law.

Also, Israel was the aggressor in the war. They attacked when they knew the Arabs had no intention of attacking.

Edited by ExpandMyMind

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kartikg
1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Then they would have been forced to leave - they would have been sanctioned, embargoed and possibly even bombed. The only reason action of some sort hasn't been taken against Israel is because the US continually blocks it, and I highly doubt they would have done the same if the situation was reversed.

The Armistace Lines declared Jerusalem 'corpus separatum' to avoid exactly the kind of controversy we see today. 

(I still think it being under international control would be the best action).

Since then it has been proposed that the city be shared by Israel and Palestine, due to its importance to both religions (not to mention Christian Palestinians). Is this really so unreasonable?

To your other points:

You cannot claim territory you acquire through war. This is clear in international law.

Also, Israel was the aggressor in the war. They attacked when they knew the Arabs had no intention of attacking.

The war was exclusively fought for control of Jerusalem, I don't see Israelis giving up just like we can't expect China to free Tibet or Russia to leave Crimea or European countries like France and Spain give up their regions or soft power in certain African countries. if Palestinian insist on Jerusalem to be their capital and make it a point in 2 state discussion they are just going to loose more time and generation of people on streets doing counter productive things. 

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ExpandMyMind
14 minutes ago, kartikg said:

The war was exclusively fought for control of Jerusalem, I don't see Israelis giving up just like we can't expect China to free Tibet or Russia to leave Crimea or European countries like France and Spain give up their regions or soft power in certain African countries. if Palestinian insist on Jerusalem to be their capital and make it a point in 2 state discussion they are just going to loose more time and generation of people on streets doing counter productive things. 

The Israelis could quite easily be forced to capitulate if proper measures were put in place, like sanctions. How long would public support last if they were embargoed or punished financially? It would be over very quickly, because Israel is not a dictatorship or a third world country and the people would not abide suffering all simply to fulfil religious fundamentalist ideologies.

Hopefully one day the US will elect a President with some backbone. The problem is that, at this point, Israel are probably outright extorting the US. "If you don't support us with your UN veto, we'll just align with Russia and allow their influence to grow in the region". I doubt it started out that way - it was likely more mutual - but Obama's relationship with Israel makes me believe firmly that this is what is happening, especially given his last act, one of "defiance" ,on the matter. It was largely symbolic given that it happened at the very end of his Presidency.

Incidentally, I believe that Saudi Arabia are doing the exact same thing with Britain and the US. 

The war was not fought exclusively for Jerusalem, as you believe. 

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On3Truly
39 minutes ago, kartikg said:

The war was exclusively fought for control of Jerusalem, I don't see Israelis giving up just like we can't expect China to free Tibet or Russia to leave Crimea or European countries like France and Spain give up their regions or soft power in certain African countries. if Palestinian insist on Jerusalem to be their capital and make it a point in 2 state discussion they are just going to loose more time and generation of people on streets doing counter productive things. 

As far as I know, the Palestinians claim East Jerusalem as their capitual, not the entire city.  Eventually, we all know the ''holy city'' will need to be partitioned for a long-lasting peace, so that each of the Abrahamic religions get their fair share.

Edited by TruthSeeker_

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Sir Wearer of Hats

Frankly, any ****er whose response to something they don’t like happening is firebombing synagogues, riots in the steeets and throwing rocks at soldiers doesn’t deserve to have a capital city, let alone their own country.

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Montmorency the Dog
32 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

response to something they don’t like happening

Response to something they don't like happening? Like their land being occupied by an alien invading army? Say your country was occupied by an alien force. And you were turned out of your home that your family had been occupying for generations so these alien occupiers could have it (or more likely demolish it and build their own). If any of your people tried to resist would you tell them that they shouldn't throw rocks at the occupying army because if they did, they didn't deserve their own country, would you?

Edited by Manfred von Dreidecker
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Montmorency the Dog

2.

Edited by Manfred von Dreidecker

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RoofGardener
7 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Then they would have been forced to leave - they would have been sanctioned, embargoed and possibly even bombed. The only reason action of some sort hasn't been taken against Israel is because the US continually blocks it, and I highly doubt they would have done the same if the situation was reversed.

I don't think that history gives us much confidence in that ExpandMyMind.

The Jordanians invaded the West Bank and East Jerusalem in 1948 (ish). They outright annexed the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and turned it into part of Jordan. (and made all of its inhabitants into Jordanian citizens). The international community did NOTHING. There where no sanctions, no embargoes, and no bombs, until Israel forced them out almost twenty years later in 1967.

The UN (and its predecessor the League of Nations) introduced the idea of Jerusalem as a corpus separatum . The Arab Nations roundly rejected the idea. (along with the general UN partition plan).

Edited by RoofGardener
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RoofGardener
6 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

The Israelis could quite easily be forced to capitulate if proper measures were put in place, like sanctions. How long would public support last if they were embargoed or punished financially? It would be over very quickly, because Israel is not a dictatorship or a third world country and the people would not abide suffering all simply to fulfil religious fundamentalist ideologies.

Hopefully one day the US will elect a President with some backbone. The problem is that, at this point, Israel are probably outright extorting the US. "If you don't support us with your UN veto, we'll just align with Russia and allow their influence to grow in the region". I doubt it started out that way - it was likely more mutual - but Obama's relationship with Israel makes me believe firmly that this is what is happening, especially given his last act, one of "defiance" ,on the matter. It was largely symbolic given that it happened at the very end of his Presidency.

Incidentally, I believe that Saudi Arabia are doing the exact same thing with Britain and the US. 

The war was not fought exclusively for Jerusalem, as you believe. 

Ahh... sanctions. Excellent idea. We could call them "Boycot, Divestment and Sanctions" perhaps ?

Oh wait.... the PLO have been promoting that idea for decades. (and are doing so currently). https://bdsmovement.net/

There doesn't appear to be any public appetite for it ? (at least, not in the UK). I wonder why ?

 

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RavenHawk
On 12/10/2017 at 9:45 AM, ExpandMyMind said:

As I pointed out to you previously, legally owning land is not a prerequisite to having a country. Here, to make this simpler for you to understand:

No, you didn’t point anything out, just showed your ignorance.  Without land, you can’t have a nation.  An individual cannot own land and be independent of any nation.  Only through the protections of the right kind of state can the right of self determination be realized.

According to your logic, the Queen owns Canada, therefore Canada could not be a sovereign, independent country, unless the Queen gave them permission to do so.

Not my logic.  First you show that the Queen owns Canada, then that she doesn’t.  Technically speaking, she does own it but it’s really symbolic in name only.  And what will drive you even more crazy is that Canada is also a sovereign nation.  I know, it’s mindboggling for you.  That's what rigid thinking does.  As I was saying, the long history of England through various acts, the Empire has turned into a Commonwealth.  That’s how both can be true at the same time.  American just jumped the gun by 150 years.  Or did America just hurry it along?


5a2d63ac89623_land2.jpg.d444142004b1c19338f3e95ab21d095e.jpg

I don’t suppose you see the error in your chart?  Note that the total square kilometers of Israel and the Palestinian territories today is about 27,000.  That more or less agrees with your chart.  Still don’t see it?  Look at the Category.  It’s divided between Arab/non-Jewish ownership and Jewish ownership.  Still don’t understand?  What is the breakout of that first category?  How much of that land was Arab/non-Palestinian?  Palestinian?  Other non-Arab/non-Jewish?  And abandoned/state (Ottoman/British) lands?  If I were to guess and order in decreasing order the amount of land to each, it would be abandoned/state lands (19,000 km²), Arab/non-Palestinian (3,500 km²), Palestinian (1,000 km²), Other (500 km²).  And that is because the Negev takes up about 12,000 km² (uncultivable).  As I had stated before, someone just took the accurate Jewish numbers on what they owned and subtracted it from the total and made the claim that the rest was just naturally Palestinian.  That was fake news of its day and it has morphed into a dangerous precedent.

This is complete nonsense and only worth replying to to highlight that it is nonsense.

So you can’t find the answer through google?  Anything you can’t find there is nonsense.  Google and wiki are excellent tools, you just can’t misuse them.  Everything you find on the internet is not true.  I usually already know what I am looking for; I just need clarification on timelines or spellings.  You need to develop a discernment of the truth of sources.  I think you have a long way to go.

As I mentioned before, anyone - even someone with zero knowledge of this conflict - can debunk every incorrect claim you make within 30 seconds with the use of Google.

Then I’d suggest that you try to improve your knowledge to be more than zero.  You haven’t debunked anything.  I haven’t seen any evidence that you’ve even read anything I presented or tried to understand before responding.  You harp on (to ad nauseam) precise definitions and laws, i.e. the right for self determination and the Geneva Convention, etc. but when it comes to the legal actual land deeds, you just want to ignore the whole thing.  Squatting is irresponsible.  You can't have the right of self determination if you are irresponsible.

I suggest you employ some basic use of fact-checking practices yourself.

Since all I’ve been doing is debunking every point of yours, I’d think that it is you that needs to do some fact checking.

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AnchorSteam
18 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Frankly, any ****er whose response to something they don’t like happening is firebombing synagogues, riots in the steeets and throwing rocks at soldiers doesn’t deserve to have a capital city, let alone their own country.

Gaza; too small to be a nation, to large to be an insane asylum. 

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Sir Wearer of Hats
18 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Response to something they don't like happening? Like their land being occupied by an alien invading army? Say your country was occupied by an alien force. And you were turned out of your home that your family had been occupying for generations so these alien occupiers could have it (or more likely demolish it and build their own). If any of your people tried to resist would you tell them that they shouldn't throw rocks at the occupying army because if they did, they didn't deserve their own country, would you?

Explain to me how burning Trump in effigy affects anything? How firebombing a synagogue in Denmark changes anything? How trying to blow yourself up in New York affects anything? 

Some ****er tries to take my land, I fight that particular iindividual ****er. Not ninny about burning their flag. Not trying to burn down some elses’ damn Place of Worship in an entirely different ****ing country.

and guess what, it’s the Israelis traditional bloody land too. ****ing no one wins here, but only one group looks like tools.

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RavenHawk

There is just so much to wade through.  I'll probably eventually pare it down to just the pertinent points.  At least I will give it all due attention and maybe a little more unlike you that just respond with clichés and sound bites.  I’ll just start with two quick replies

 

On 12/10/2017 at 2:55 PM, ExpandMyMind said:

I couldn't help but notice that I provided loads of links to UN resolutions and the relevant international laws, not to mention census and other sources, yet all you have provided is unverified opinion. Very interesting.

You do realize that UN resolutions are non-binding.  And without an enforcement body, they (and international laws) are mere opinion.  You do realize that the important resolutions where it applies to both Israel and the Palestinians, the Palestinians violate them as well.

 

I guess when one has studied the situation as long as I have, giving the tabular facts gets boring.  What’s of more interest are the causes and outcomes.  I prefer ripping long held misconceptions.

 

Squatters? You are actually, 100%, reversing the realities of this situation. The vast majority of Jews in Palestine after WW2 were European immigrants. The Palestinians were the indigenous population. How is it possible to squat in your own house?

Yes, the majority of Jews after WW2 were immigrants and they had legal places to go to.  Saying that the Palestinians were indigenous is pretty kind to what they actually were.  Squatters build houses on land they do not own.  They are squatter houses.  They have been squatters for hundreds of years.  They never have been responsible in their actions to legitimately purchase the land.  They just played the game that their family would out last the family of the rightful owners and hoped that they would be left alone.  They allowed someone else to pay their way.  In 1909, about 200,000 hectares were purchased in the Jezreel Valley.  The new Jewish owners had not only the law but the will and the means to clear the land of squatters.  This is probably the beginning of Palestinian violence in the modern era.  It must be pretty embarrassing to be bettered by Jews.

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