Jesus and politics

[+Liquid Gardens]

12 minutes ago, .ZZ. said:

It may come as a surprise to many, but Jesus Christ did not involve Himself with the politics of His day

True, but we live in a world where everything has a political connection, salvation itself has a political connection today.  Besides there is an extensive and strong overlap between 'gun violence' and sin, especially in the specific events being mentioned here, so seems like fair game for religious entities. 

(Ha, yes, before you burn me with it, I agree it's totally fair to use my first statement against me since just like with 'political connection', you can also link almost everything today to 'sin'.)

I've driven by different churches at times and seen tons of little white crosses planted in their lawns as a statement about abortion, I see quite a few parallels with this.

[.ZZ.]

12 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

True, but we live in a world where everything has a political connection, salvation itself has a political connection today.  Besides there is an extensive and strong overlap between 'gun violence' and sin, especially in the specific events being mentioned here, so seems like fair game for religious entities. 

(Ha, yes, before you burn me with it, I agree it's totally fair to use my first statement against me since just like with 'political connection', you can also link almost everything today to 'sin'.)

I've driven by different churches at times and seen tons of little white crosses planted in their lawns as a statement about abortion, I see quite a few parallels with this.

Good point, but I won't veer off topic other than to say abortion is the ultimate sin in my world.

[CrimsonKing]

9 minutes ago, .ZZ. said:

Good point, but I won't veer off topic other than to say abortion is the ultimate sin in my world.

Well this is twice now "abortion" connection has been brought up,best we get back on the rails now or drift off into the dreaded lands of "WHATABOUTISM"  

[Farmer77]

12 hours ago, CrimsonKing said:

My honest opinion is that these type guns weren't heavily coveted during Clintons "assault weapons ban" and i don't get the recent demand for them...

My thought is that the generation which grew up playing Call of Duty 24/7 is now old enough to purchase firearms. I'm not saying  that games make people violent but when you have millions of people spending their entire waking lives obsessing over obtaining and using digital weaponry it just makes sense that the most fractured individuals would carry that thought process from the digital into the real world. 

[Kismit]

50 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

My thought is that the generation which grew up playing Call of Duty 24/7 is now old enough to purchase firearms. I'm not saying  that games make people violent but when you have millions of people spending their entire waking lives obsessing over obtaining and using digital weaponry it just makes sense that the most fractured individuals would carry that thought process from the digital into the real world. 

Only mass shootings have been around longer than COD. And the recent Las Vegas shooter was well older than that generation.

All shooters are connected through previous real life violent acts, and a need to own or cast power over someone else.

In there somewhere is the solution to the problem. 

People who should have lost their right to gun ownership by displaying violence towards another human being still manage to legally aquire guns. Stopping that or at least making guns less available to these people could reduce mass shootings.

Also there needs to be real research into what can stop gun violence.

I'm not saying gun owners are nuts or that all guns should go. But the system is broken. And this year at least one very small town is having Christmas without  50+ of its people. Because of a broken system.

 

[Farmer77]

13 minutes ago, Kismit said:

Only mass shootings have been around longer than COD. And the recent Las Vegas shooter was well older than that generation

I was more correlating the uptick in assault type weapon purchases in recent years with COD than I was mass shootings. 

Kids have spent their entire lives looking for that weapons upgrade. Noone wants a 1911 when you can have a P90

13 minutes ago, Kismit said:

I'm not saying gun owners are nuts or that all guns should go. But the system is broken. And this year at least one very small town is having Christmas without  50+ of its people. Because of a broken system.

While I am pro 2nd Amendment I will concur that there have to be things we can do to help stop the epidemic. Simply ensuring the system in place actually works would be a huge step, if that were that case that Texas town might be having a completely different holiday this year. 

[Opus Magnus]

15 hours ago, Kismit said:

I found this story while scrolling through Facebook.

Church places list of mass shootings next to Nativity scene

My own opinion is that I agree with the Minister of the Church and his decision to make this a discussion about gun violence.

In the story from NBC, the Minister justifies his choice by relating to Jesus as a political character who was at odds with the state.

I relate this, Jesus to political odds to how you won't allow Jesus mentioned in the conspiracy forum. With your warnings about bringing up a single parable to defend myself from someones rude remark. How others go off topic and ruin threads with obscene jokes, but as soon as Jesus is used it must be censored.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Opus Magnus

[simplybill]

4 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

My thought is that the generation which grew up playing Call of Duty 24/7 is now old enough to purchase firearms. I'm not saying  that games make people violent but when you have millions of people spending their entire waking lives obsessing over obtaining and using digital weaponry it just makes sense that the most fractured individuals would carry that thought process from the digital into the real world. 

 

14 hours ago, .ZZ. said:

Good point, but I won't veer off topic other than to say abortion is the ultimate sin in my world.

I definitely see a connection between abortion and gun violence. Since December 13, 1971, children have been hearing that human life is nothing more than "a few ounces of tissue". A steady diet of violence-as-entertainment, combined with a lack of respect for human life, has given us a culture with a lot less empathy. Remember the first two popular Atari games? Asteroids and Pong (the sound effects are memorable too). Compare those two games with COD, GTA and others.   

[+Liquid Gardens]

2 hours ago, simplybill said:

Since December 13, 1971, children have been hearing that human life is nothing more than "a few ounces of tissue". 

Never heard anyone say that, but regardless children and adults have been hearing from Christianity for about 2 millennia now at least that they are all depraved sinful beings deserving of every evil and suffering, and then some, that befalls them.  I'm sure that really increases their respect for human life...

What evidence do you have that we have a culture with a lot 'less' empathy?  Less than when exactly?

[simplybill]

2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Never heard anyone say that, but regardless children and adults have been hearing from Christianity for about 2 millennia now at least that they are all depraved sinful beings deserving of every evil and suffering, and then some, that befalls them.  I'm sure that really increases their respect for human life...

What evidence do you have that we have a culture with a lot 'less' empathy?  Less than when exactly?

When put into biblical context, your statement has a positive side also:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."   John 3:16-17 (ESV)

Regarding empathy: I'll reword my statement:

It appears to me that a lack of empathy is now celebrated rather than condemned. Look for "street fight videos" on an internet search engine; street-violence-as-entertainment is a popular theme these days. Street riots are becoming a summertime festivity. Social media bullying has given us a new word: bullicide, a combination of bullying and suicide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying_and_suicide

There has always been violence, but the overt celebration of violence among youth is a recent development.

 

 

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

58 minutes ago, simplybill said:

When put into biblical context, your statement has a positive side also:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."   John 3:16-17 (ESV)

Fair enough, but this seems to be a highly qualified 'positive', it's a positive that (partially) offsets the negative that was created by the same being.  It's like if I purposely give you a bacterial infection but then provide you antibiotics to cure it; would we be also be saying that this entire transaction has a positive side too because I provided you antibiotics?

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

It appears to me that a lack of empathy is now celebrated rather than condemned. Look for "street fight videos" on an internet search engine; street-violence-as-entertainment is a popular theme these days. Street riots are becoming a summertime festivity. Social media bullying has given us a new word: bullicide, a combination of bullying and suicide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying_and_suicide

There has always been violence, but the overt celebration of violence among youth is a recent development.

I think if you look at the instances of blacks being lynched you'll find no shortage of youth and adults celebrating, pretty sure they even have pictures.  Same with gays being abused, same with women being abused, same with animals being abused, etc, all of it much much worse in the past.  I believe most 'street fight videos' at least involve willing participants.  You're right that we definitely have new maladies like 'bullicide' that we have to contend with, but in so many ways we are far more empathetic than we were in the past.

[+OverSword]

Although I know how to use one and have shot with my Dad my whole life, I don't feel the need to own a gun myself.  I'm not the type to be afraid and I don't own anything worth killing someone over. 

[Paranormal Panther]

6 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Never heard anyone say that, but regardless children and adults have been hearing from Christianity for about 2 millennia now at least that they are all depraved sinful beings deserving of every evil and suffering, and then some, that befalls them.  I'm sure that really increases their respect for human life...

What evidence do you have that we have a culture with a lot 'less' empathy?  Less than when exactly?

That's a great point. Things aren't perfect in the present. They were much worse in the past. That's true for our country *and* our world. It could be argued that the '80s and the '90s were better in many ways. I think that's objectively true for pop culture. That era is just a tiny slice of a huge historical pie, though. It was the exception to the rule.

[Podo]

22 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

That's a great point. Things aren't perfect in the present. They were much worse in the past.

This is something that is far too often overlooked, worldwide, when discussing the state of things. The present may not be perfect, or even very good, but it's still usually much better than the alternative.

[Paranormal Panther]

10 minutes ago, Podo said:

This is something that is far too often overlooked, worldwide, when discussing the state of things. The present may not be perfect, or even very good, but it's still usually much better than the alternative.

Age and nostalgia play roles too. We often miss our younger days. Still, I think that many things got much worse after 9/11. It brought in a period of Illuminati Idiocracy.

[Podo]

Just now, Paranormal Panther said:

Age and nostalgia play roles too. We often miss our younger days. Still, I think that many things got much worse after 9/11. It brought in a period of Illuminati Idiocracy.

I'll have to take your word for it. When 11/9 happened, I was only ten , and not american, so I don't really have good memories of the pre-11/9 world in the states. The only thing I really remember directly is that going to america required a passport afterwards, whereas beforehand Canadians didn't always need one.

[Paranormal Panther]

4 minutes ago, Podo said:

I'll have to take your word for it. When 11/9 happened, I was only ten , and not american, so I don't really have good memories of the pre-11/9 world in the states. The only thing I really remember directly is that going to america required a passport afterwards, whereas beforehand Canadians didn't always need one.

Just compare pop culture then to pop culture now. You don't need rose colored glasses to see a decline.

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 minute ago, Paranormal Panther said:

That's a great point. Things aren't perfect in the present. They were much worse in the past. That's true for our country *and* our world. It could be argued that the '80s and the '90s were better in many ways. I think that's objectively true for pop culture. That era is just a tiny slice of a huge historical pie, though. It was the exception to the rule.

Yes I think it's fair to point out there were some peaceful periods, although the 80's and 90's still weren't the greatest empathy-wise for gays.  There does seem to be more tension society-wise today than in most of my life, but there's also less violent crime, the economy is excellent, lots of jobs, and convenience and entertainment galore.  We've got way more mass shootings/terrorist attacks today but I don't know that it's representative of an uptick in the number of people who are violent or just that the same number that's always existed have realized that it's not that difficult in a free society to pull off.  The North Korea thing is definitely concerning but it's not really in the ballpark of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the worst of our societal troubles are still a very good distance from just 1968, so many things are so much better just compared to my parents' generation.

Ha, I gotta admit I have trouble making the phrase 'objectively true' connect in any way to 'pop culture'; to me 'pop' means its pretty light and fickle by nature, tough to attach 'objective' to it.

[+joc]

How would we feel if...instead of a list of Mass Shootings at the Nativity Scene...it was a list of nation wide Abortion Clinics?

Just asking? 

Also just asking...Why does the Church feel a need to involve itself in Politics of any kind?  

I really don't care where someone comes down on the gun issue.  But why on God's Grey Earth does Politics have to be inserted into everything?

Why not  a list of every black person murdered in Chicago in 2017?  There were a lot more of them killed than in all the mass shootings combined.

Or a list of every person killed by drunk drivers in any given year?

Maybe a list of Hollywood Elites, Congressmen, and Preachers who have been accused of Sexual Assault?

How about a blank piece of poster board and a Sharpy....where people can come to the Nativity Scene and transcribe any Political gripe they personally hold?

But then again...we are talking about the Church...so...go figure.

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by joc

[preacherman76]

20 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Never heard anyone say that, but regardless children and adults have been hearing from Christianity for about 2 millennia now at least that they are all depraved sinful beings deserving of every evil and suffering, and then some, that befalls them.  I'm sure that really increases their respect for human life...

What evidence do you have that we have a culture with a lot 'less' empathy?  Less than when exactly?

What evidence do you have that Christians have less respect for human life?

Funny how we are not hearing the calls for separation of church and state over this. 

[+OverSword]

Obviously Jesus wouldn't support mass shootings, but would support the right to keep and bear arms to protect oneself.  His disciples were armed as is shown:
 

Quote

 

John 18:10 New International Version (NIV)

10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.)

 

 

[+OverSword]

On 12/7/2017 at 2:56 AM, Farmer77 said:

My thought is that the generation which grew up playing Call of Duty 24/7 is now old enough to purchase firearms. I'm not saying  that games make people violent but when you have millions of people spending their entire waking lives obsessing over obtaining and using digital weaponry it just makes sense that the most fractured individuals would carry that thought process from the digital into the real world. 

I hate to agree with that but I play a few driving games and must say that thanks to those games there are a few exotic cars I probably would never have heard of otherwise that I would dearly love to own in real life.

[CrimsonKing]

7 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Obviously Jesus wouldn't support mass shootings, but would support the right to keep and bear arms to protect oneself.  His disciples were armed as is shown:
 

 

The Bible is a violent book...even during Jesus time in the New Testament!

[CrimsonKing]

4 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I hate to agree with that but I play a few driving games and must say that thanks to those games there are a few exotic cars I probably would never have heard of otherwise that I would dearly love to own in real life.

  

[+Liquid Gardens]

3 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

What evidence do you have that Christians have less respect for human life?

What evidence is there that children supposedly hearing that we are 'nothing' but a few ounces of tissue results in less respect for human life?  That's what my statement replies to.  

3 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Funny how we are not hearing the calls for separation of church and state over this.

Over what?  If by 'this' you mean the OP, I'm pretty sure this nativity scene is on private property so there is no separation of church and state issue that I see.