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aquatus1

Proof of Creationism

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Rufio85

Have a little read through this next link. I don't think it holds all the answers, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts about them...

http://cryingvoice.com/Evolution/

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Stellar
Have a little read through this next link. I don't think it holds all the answers, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts about them...

http://cryingvoice.com/Evolution/

445946[/snapback]

I'd like to point out that they're not trying to prove creationism there, they're trying to disprove evolution. Thats not what the thread is about.

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Rufio85
Have a little read through this next link. I don't think it holds all the answers, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts about them...

http://cryingvoice.com/Evolution/

445946[/snapback]

I'd like to point out that they're not trying to prove creationism there, they're trying to disprove evolution. Thats not what the thread is about.

445950[/snapback]

There are alot of parts which talk about disproving evolution in this site. Such as the links 'Languages and Evolution' , 'Fossils and Evolution' , 'The Ape-Men'. Some of these links actually have the word 'Evolution' in them which would suggest as it's a creationists' website, that it may actually have something to do with disproving evolution?!

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Hotoke

this is about creationist proving creation

Edited by Hotoke

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Stellar
There are alot of parts which talk about disproving evolution in this site. Such as the links 'Languages and Evolution' , 'Fossils and Evolution' , 'The Ape-Men'. Some of these links actually have the word 'Evolution' in them which would suggest as it's a creationists' website, that it may actually have something to do with disproving evolution?!

But thats not what the thread is about. The thread is not about disproving evolution, its about proving creationism. Even if someone manged to disprove evolution, that wouldnt prove creationism until he could provide evidence for creationism.

All the e vs c debates turn into not really e vs c but evolution being supported vs evolution not being supported. People argue saying that theres no proof of evolution, but never end up proving creationism. This thread is about creationists proving creationism.

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LuQy
plz do  happy.gif

Did you get my PM ThePortal? Whenever I send PM's it doesn't confirm if it's been sent wacko.gif plus it doesn't store the msg in the sent items folder wacko.gifhmm.gif

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Stellar

Hotoke: Give it a rest. This thread isnt about arguing evolution... its about creationists being called upon to prove creationism. They cant prove creationism by disproving evolution.

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LuQy

Some of the people who heard of the theory of Evolution or Darwinism may think that these concepts only concern the field of biology and that they have no significance in their every day lives. This is big misconception because far more than a biological concept, the theory of evolution constitutes the underpinnings of a philosophy that has held sway over a great number of people. He further says, this philosophy is materialism which holds a number of bogus views about why and how we came into being. Materialism maintains that there is nothing but the matter and that matter is the essence of every thing; it (materialism) denies the existence of a divine creator, which is GOD.

Although evolution is a universal fact which can be established through the study of comparative morphology, palaeontology, embryology, anthropology and genetics – the theory which is commonly propounded to explain its mechanism i.e. Natural Selection, is by no means a secure and scientifically proven fact. Thirdly they consider that human beings have a dual nature. There is a non-material mind or spirit or ego which exists side by side with man’s corporeal body. The real essence of human being is his spiritual soul which is directly inspired in humans and it has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution concerns only the physical body of man. The man’s true superiority over the rest of creation, including angles, is not because of his physical body, which he shares with other animals, but is actually due to his spiritual soul which truly distinguishes him and sets him apart from all living creatures.

The fossil record of bipedal human like forms Australopithecines, (approximately 3-6 million years old), Homo hobilis, Homo erectus (Java Man and Peking man belong to this group) Homo sapiens neanderthalenisis and finally Homo sapiens (Modern Man). The fossils of this last mentioned form are as old as 35000 (According to some, biologists 50000 – 100,000). It must be noted that although there is no general agreement regarding the precise relationship between modern man and the various man-like forms mentioned above, a number of anthropological and biochemical studies have pointed the emergence of all present day humans from a small group of individuals, perhaps some where in the Middle East or Africa. It is supposed that their descendants soon migrated to various continents and adapted to their different environments and climatic conditions leading to the variations in the skeletal, muscular, and other details of different races. Now the modern scientific findings also confirm that all human beings of today are the descendants of a single pair, “because the Mitochondrial DNA in each living human being can be traced back to a single female, who lived in Africa or Asia some 100,000 years ago”. (18)

The Quran declared this fact 14 centuries ago.

O mankind! Reverence your Lord, who created you from a single soul, and He created there of his mate and from them twain, He spread countless men and women. (4:1)

In another verse Almighty Allah Proclaims:

(Allah is the one God) who made all things He created excellent; and He began the creation of man from clay. Then He made his offspring from the extract of base fluid; then He fashioned and breathed into him of His Spirit; and gave you hearing and sight and the faculty of inferring. And yet how little are the thanks you offer! Qaliluma ma Tashkuroon (32:7-9)

Taking this into consideration I should also add that there is no evidence in the Quran, to suggest whether all species, each of which exists by the grace of God, were created all at once or gradually. To me, evolution is inherent in nature as a well thought out program of the Almighty Creator; it has not merely been going on ever since creation but it will continue for endless years till the fulfilment of the purpose of creation. Our (muslim) concept of the creation of man is that God, like a potter, moulded clay into shape and breathed his spirit into it and Adam was thus created. Possibly this was the process but what does one do with verses 18:37, 22:5, 25:11, 40:67 which state time and again that God created man from clay and sperm? It is obvious that clay does not create sperm: it comes from an animal and a human being. It means that the mention of all intermediary stages of evolution has been omitted and attention is drawn to the original source, which is clay. The last cause is the sperm of man which stays in the womb of a woman. The word tawr is the basis of tatawwar, which means evolution. This can also mean that God created man as a mineral in the first instance. Mineral developed into vegetation, which developed into animal life. There is no contradiction, the tradition of prophet Muhammad (PBUH) that “Allah/GOD created Adam in his own image”, refers to man’s spirit and not his body. I am inclined to believe that when the process of biological evolution reached its goal and the final form of man appeared on earth, Almighty Allah selected a single pair – a male and female – and endowed them with their spiritual souls. It is not entirely in conceivable that all other members of this species died and became extinct and that all of us are, therefore, descendants of this, primordial human pair, Adam and Eve, as alluded to in the Quran (49:13).

Here are few verses of the Quran in which different stages of the creation of man are described like:

We made every living thing from water, will they not believe? (21:30)

Allah has caused you to grow as a growth from the earth (71:17)

He brought you forth from the earth and settled you therein (11:61)

He fashioned you in stages (7:14)

He created man of fermented clay dried tinkling hard like earth ware (55:14).

He fashioned man from fermented clay dried tinkling hard (15:26).

It is He who created man from water (25:54).

and also, Allah Almighty did mention dinosaurs in the Noble Quran. While the word "dinosaurs" is a modern word that refers to the gigantic animals that existed perhaps millions of years ago, Allah Almighty referred to all created "beasts" as "dabbah". A "dabbah" in the Noble Quran consists of all animals, including the dinosaurs.

"Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which God Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise. (The Noble Quran, 2:164)"

"He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. (The Noble Quran, 31:10)"

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Rufio85
There are alot of parts which talk about disproving evolution in this site. Such as the links 'Languages and Evolution' , 'Fossils and Evolution' , 'The Ape-Men'. Some of these links actually have the word 'Evolution' in them which would suggest as it's a creationists' website, that it may actually have something to do with disproving evolution?!

But thats not what the thread is about. The thread is not about disproving evolution, its about proving creationism. Even if someone manged to disprove evolution, that wouldnt prove creationism until he could provide evidence for creationism.

All the e vs c debates turn into not really e vs c but evolution being supported vs evolution not being supported. People argue saying that theres no proof of evolution, but never end up proving creationism. This thread is about creationists proving creationism.

445976[/snapback]

Soz, misread what you said before. Still, If evolution is disproved, what is there left to disprove creation? It could still amount to a process of elimination answer. (but yes, i agree this is going off the thread topic a bit).

Try looking at the 'intelligent design' section.

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Stellar
Soz, misread what you said before. Still, If evolution is disproved, what is there left to disprove creation? It could still amount to a process of elimination answer. (but yes, i agree this is going off the thread topic a bit).

Try looking at the 'intelligent design' section.

If evolution is disproven, creationism has yet to be proven. We cant do a process of elimination to prove creationism because if it doesnt have any evidence supporting it, theres no reason to believe it. Not only that, but a process of elimination cant be done if you dont know all the options. You cant say "Well, 1 + 1 isnt 1, and 1+1 isnt 3... so 1+1 must be 4." because the person missed 2.

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_hAiLO_

Hey, i'm still waiting...does anyone want to conduct the research with me?

And remember this. To research is not to prove, but to enlighten the theory of Creationism. Nothing can be proven, science only gives a possible explanation of a phenomenon.

Science does not side with Evolution nor Creationism, it sides with truth. And I want to use science to re-explain a possible theory of Creationism, in which I have found one. A very interesting...in dept scientific explanation explaining how humans could not have lived past 100,000 years.

So, anyone want to help research with me? C'mon, tis science...I get confused wacko.gif .

Edited by Hailo_hellFIRE

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Rufio85
Soz, misread what you said before. Still, If evolution is disproved, what is there left to disprove creation? It could still amount to a process of elimination answer. (but yes, i agree this is going off the thread topic a bit).

Try looking at the 'intelligent design' section.

If evolution is disproven, creationism has yet to be proven. We cant do a process of elimination to prove creationism because if it doesnt have any evidence supporting it, theres no reason to believe it. Not only that, but a process of elimination cant be done if you dont know all the options. You cant say "Well, 1 + 1 isnt 1, and 1+1 isnt 3... so 1+1 must be 4." because the person missed 2.

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For me, creation hasn't been disproven (open another topic possibly to talk about this). I think there are people with more knowledge than me that can provide better evidence for creation. that's why i provided the site.

Edited by Rufio85

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Unorthodox Thesis

I do not even know where to start disprooving evolution.

Hmm. Lets start by some famous quotes:

"[Creation] will present a parallel to the theory of evolution itself, a theory universally accepted

not because it can be prooved by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only

alternative, "special creation" is clearly incredible." - D.M.S. Watson

"Evolution is unproved, and unprovable. We believe it because the only alternative is

special creation, and that is unthinkable." - Sir Arthur Keith

"Neither evolution nor creation can be either confirmed or falsified scientifically."

- N. Heribert-Nilsson

"The more studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based

on faith alone..." - Louis T.More

Why is it so hard to understand that neither can be prooven?

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Rufio85
I do not even know where to start disprooving evolution.

Hmm. Lets start by some famous quotes:

"[Creation] will present a parallel to the theory of evolution itself, a theory universally accepted

not because it can be prooved by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only

alternative, "special creation" is clearly incredible." - D.M.S. Watson

"Evolution is unproved, and unprovable. We believe it because the only alternative is

special creation, and that is unthinkable." - Sir Arthur Keith

"Neither evolution nor creation can be either confirmed or falsified scientifically."

- N. Heribert-Nilsson

"The more studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based

on faith alone..." - Louis T.More

Why is it so hard to understand that neither can be prooven?

446030[/snapback]

Hmm, I have to agree with you. I think both need a certain amount of faith to beleive, as both cannot be proven 100%.

At ground basics, they are both theories with evidence which can co-incide parts of it, but maybe not fully. That's where faith is needed.

If someone wants to beleive there is a God or there isn't, the cornerstone for that is the start of all life. For one beleif to be proven wrong means changing what someone else wants to (not) beleive in. Maybe this is why there are such heated debates on this matter.

Edited by Rufio85

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Unorthodox Thesis
its about creationists being called upon to prove creationism. They cant prove creationism by disproving evolution.

By eliminating one possibility, we lessen the alternatives.

The alternative is creation. Besides, we cannot proove either scientifically.

No one was around to observe how humans became. Nobody made

a detailed record of how we became. NOBODY MADE A historical record

of the origins of life!

If we believe that we were created, then we believe that God was there.

So, we can ask Him. And LOOK! He has already answerd our questions

in genesis 1! thumbsup.gif

Edited by Norman

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Hotoke

eliminating evolution is for another topic right now some proof for creationism that is what this topic is about

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Stellar
Science does not side with Evolution nor Creationism, it sides with truth. And I want to use science to re-explain a possible theory of Creationism, in which I have found one. A very interesting...in dept scientific explanation explaining how humans could not have lived past 100,000 years.

Dont forget to not only support the idea that humans could not have lived past 100 000 years, but that they were only around for 6000.

For me, creation hasn't been disproven (open another topic possibly to talk about this). I think there are people with more knowledge than me that can provide better evidence for creation. that's why i provided the site.

You cant disprove something thats not falsifiable. Ever conspiracy in the world, pretty much, has not been disproven. And that site? Again, it tries to disprove evolution and not prove creationism.

I do not even know where to start disprooving evolution.

Hmm.

YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DISPROVE EVOULTION!

Jesus christ! In one ear and out the other! Aquatus SPECIFICALLY said that this thread is NOT for disproving evolution but for attempting to PROVE creationism!

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_hAiLO_

Hey, there is more than one theory of Creationism, meaning more than one explanation tryint to prove it. Like the explanations for Adam and Eve, the explanations of Youn Earth, and so forth.

Do I have to prove them all? Or only one?

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Rufio85

If science didn't have evolution, what would you have? Living creatures who appeared on this earth with everything they need to survive. Including the sun, food, water etc...

Intelligent beings from scratch. Sound to me alot like creation.

One of you say, well if it's not evolution, it could scientifically be something else? I'd like to hear about any plan B you might have.

In my opinion, with either creation or evolution being 100% disproved, the other gains 100% credibility.

Each protein is coded for by the DNA/RNA system. However, many specific proteins are needed in order to manufacture DNA/RNA. So which came first: proteins or DNA/RNA?

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ThePortal

I think Aquatus and everyone woul agree with me on this one...

WE DONT WANT YOU TO DISPROVE EVOLUTION......PROVE CREATIONISM AS IF EVOLUTION DOES NOT EXIST!!!

EVOLUTION DOES NOT EXIST IN THIS THREAD.

sry if it sounded like I screamed....actually I was laugh.gif hope it got your attention.

Hey, there is more than one theory of Creationism, meaning more than one explanation tryint to prove it. Like the explanations for Adam and Eve, the explanations of Youn Earth, and so forth.

Do I have to prove them all? Or only one?

Hailo_hellFIRE,

what I would suggest is that if you can find a common pattern in all of them and fit them all together, that would be the best. But quite hard to do I imagine by yourself.

If not then prove at least those or the one that you are comfortable with...and the ball will get rolling wink2.gif

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Stellar
Hey, there is more than one theory of Creationism, meaning more than one explanation tryint to prove it. Like the explanations for Adam and Eve, the explanations of Youn Earth, and so forth.

Popular/common creationism is the christian version. Its basis is Adam and Eve, and sometimes extends to young Earth. Ask aquatus about what he'd like you to try and prove.

If science didn't have evolution, what would you have? Living creatures who appeared on this earth with everything they need to survive. Including the sun, food, water etc...

Intelligent beings from scratch. Sound to me alot like creation.

No... what we would have is a search for the explenation. Look at it this way. Lets use the pyramids as an example, because I've seen 3 common beliefs people have about the pyramids. Im not trying to say which ones right and which ones are wrong, I'm just using it as an example. The construction of the pyramids... some say they were created by the humans with the tech of the era. Others say they were created by humans with advanced technology. Others say they were created by aliens. If you disprove that humans built it, theres still 2 other theories.

Actually, I just thought of another one. Crop circles. Some people say humans made them, others say aliens made them. If you disprove that humans made them, it doesnt mean that aliens made them, because maybe it'll turn out that ghosts made them.

In my opinion, with either creation or evolution being 100% disproved, the other gains 100% credibility.

Again, the disproving consists or saying why theres no evidence to support evolution. If theres no evidence to support evolution, theres still no evidence to support creationism.

One person says 1+1=3, the other says no, 1+1=5, and then adds shows that 1+1 doesnt =3 because 2+1=3. 1+1=5 is still unproven and wong.

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Irish

Great topic. But we seem to have trouble getting the ball rolling here. For the interest of discusion I shall put away my christian believes(temporarily).

One of my bad habits is gambling. So I might start the ball rolling with looking at odds.

With regards to recent scientific mapping of the human genome. It would present an almost infinite odds at the possibility that we were built by chance. Thus I would place my money on the odds of purposeful design.

This purposeful design may be a creator or creators.

Anyone want to roll the dice?

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Stellar
With regards to recent scientific mapping of the human genome. It would present an almost infinite odds at the possibility that we were built by chance. Thus I would place my money on the odds of purposeful design.

This purposeful design may be a creator or creators.

Sorry, but thats not creationism, thats intelligent design.

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Rufio85

OK then rolleyes.gif

Each protein is coded for by the DNA/RNA system. However, many specific proteins are needed in order to manufacture DNA/RNA. So which came first: proteins or DNA/RNA?

We have DNA/RNA and proteins, right? DNA/RNA cannot be manufactured without protein. Protein is coded by DNA/RNA.

It's like the chicken and the egg scenario. Which came first. They cannot exist without the other one making it. For both to exist today, one must have come out of nothing. As that is impossible, a creator of some kind must have been involved.

Sorry, I should have explained the whole DNA/RNA thing more in my last post.

Edited by Rufio85

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Stellar
OK then  rolleyes.gif 

Each protein is coded for by the DNA/RNA system. However, many specific proteins are needed in order to manufacture DNA/RNA. So which came first: proteins or DNA/RNA?

We have DNA/RNA and proteins, right? DNA/RNA cannot be manufactured without protein. Protein is coded by DNA/RNA.

It's like the chicken and the egg scenario. Which came first. They cannot exist without the other one making it. For both to exist today, one must have come out of nothing. As that is impossible, a creator of some kind must have been involved.

Sorry, I should have explained the whole DNA/RNA thing more in my last post.

446143[/snapback]

I'm not sure if this is the kind of stuff Aquatus is looking for...

Either way, something didnt come out of nothing. I fear that if I discuss that it'll turn into evolution and intelligent design and not creationism. I'll leave it for aquatus to decide if he wants to talk about this or not.

Edited by Stellar

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