How to solve the UFO mystery

[preacherman76]

6 hours ago, stereologist said:

You just may be so used to using the straw man argument that you cannot recognize that you are doing it. But, you are using straw man arguments in nearly every post responding to me.

Let's go over a straw man argument and hopefully you will see what you are doing.

In post #24 I begin by stating that there is no real evidence for UFOs and that all there is are reports. I point out that reports are not evidence because many ideas based on reports have been shown to be wrong. I follow up by stating that reports do not make things real.

Here is your response

This is a straw man argument.

1. You suggest that evidence might appear in the future. Has nothing to do with my post. I discussed  current understand and not some speculation.

2. You go on to suggest that your idea, which has nothing at all to do with my post, makes my post false logic. That's just weird illogical thinking on your part. Your musing about something else have no bearing on my post.

3. You follow up your illogical musing with some conclusion that my post is dismissive.

That is the first time you attempted a straw man argument. As you can see I called it " some sort of a straw man argument ".

Mmm you are the one using a straw man here. Fila was right, just cause some reports can be explained certainly doesn’t mean all can. You are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Then demanding that pointing out that flawed thinking is a straw man. 

[stereologist]

5 hours ago, Fila said:

Yes.., it is actually. There is nothing wrong with that for people who feel they have done sufficient research.., and are ready to move on.

 

No I don't. Its a different perspective.

You gotta calm down man. Seriously. Just realise people have different perspectives on things. This doesn't mean they are liars.

How can you be so sure? Have you looked before? I know for a fact that there are.

This is not true. There is credible data.., and unverifiable data. I prefer to read the verified data.., as opposed to YouTube for example.

No. I have just done sufficient research.

Possibly. I am open to the idea. However.., it could also be that you may not be explaining it properly.., or we just have a communication barrier (I.e. Ancient Civilizations are NOT myths.., they are modern speculation)

Okay cool. Thanks for that. But I'm okay with this.., try not to let my interest affect you personally.

I love this quote from Dr. Allen J Hynek

"It is no longer possible to sweep away thc whole subject. It reminds me of the days of Galileo when he was trying to get people to look at the sun spots. They would say that the sun is a symbol of God; God is perfect, therefore the sun is perfect; therefore spots cannot exist: therefore there is no point in looking."

Evidence is not formed from an opinion. Spending time looking for evidence can only form an opinion.

There is no evidence. If there was you could provide something, but nothing posted so far. Calling an opinion a different perspective is okay. It still is just an opinion without evidence.

You claim there are scientific reports. Why not post just one.  That is all that is needed. My guess is that you have a different opinion concerning what might be labeled a scientific report. I've seen so many people that make claims about such things, but never deliver or report something stated by someone involved in science.

A favorite term for those without evidence is to use the word credible. It is used in appeals to authority. People like to say that credible reports come from certain people with certain jobs. That turns out to be wrong many times. A credible report is one which has evidence to back it up. So far there is no evidence.

Evidence is lacking. Research doesn't really exist. It is wishful thinking based on investing time looking into a collection of stories. The same sort of process is used by believers in TK, crop circles, chemtrails, and other unsupported ideas.  People simply believe. They have faith in the stories they read. They talk to others that also believe and the stories are elevated in their minds to evidence. There is no evidence, just stories and wishful thinking.

I never stated or suggested the following: "using the same basic logic of (I have seen UFOs debunked.., therefore all UFOs are debunked.) "  You have repeatedly misrepresented my posts. Why should I accept any of your stories of doing research when you can't understand what I have posted? Clearly, it is not me but you that is having the problem. You seem unwilling or unable to respond to any of my posts.

Here is an example of a straw man argument - AGAIN!

I wrote the following:

Quote

You suggest that "90% of cases are solved." I'm not particularly interested in the rate at which cases are solved. I do see some suggestion here that you are attempting an argument called residualization. The argument is that there is some residue of arguments that are not solved and those are somehow important. Frankly, they are not. Just because a report is total crap and cannot be figured out does not make it interesting or important.

In your response you wrote.

Quote

This 90% thing was in response to you saying:

"I've been with UFO believers in the field. I've seen them point out UFOs in the sky. They were satellites. I told them what they were and the believers were dismissive. I even predicted when the satellites would disappear as they entered the Earth's shadow and they continued their snide dismissive attitude. When one satellite dropped below the horizon and another came up minutes later at a different spot they got all excited that the UFO was coming back. You see, these are the stories of people that are hopelessly lost in the fake mystery of UFOs. It is a fake mystery of their own making." 

To me.., it appears you are using the same basic logic of (I have seen UFOs debunked.., therefore all UFOs are debunked.) If this is not your meaning.., please let me know.

I responded that 10% were unsolved. 90% were solved. Its the 10% we are interested in.

Nowhere do I bring up debunked or debunk one and all are debunked. This comment by you is a straw man argument. I never made any such statement, or suggested that, or implied that.

The problem with UFOs is that people pretend they have evidence. More stories is more stories and not evidence. Stories serve to shore up an opinion which is lacking actual evidence.

[stereologist]

5 hours ago, Fila said:

Again? It's gonna be a looooong evening huh.

I fail to see the drama here.

'Myth".., when I should have said "Modern Speculation". However I fail to see how this made me a straw man, and changed the meaning of your point.

Please elaborate.

Those parts? You're going to have to quote this part properly.., I am not sure what part of my post you are replying to.., and what reports u refer to.

Oh, ok. Perhaps I am wrong. Can you please tell me what would be considered as "evidence" for UFOs being more than mis-ID's and hoaxes?

Another misrepresentation of my post. At this point I see no reason to show how you misrepresented my post. You'll just continue to misrepresent other posters.

What you could do is try to support your position. So far there have been claims about scientific reports and credible reports. I'll bet this is all unsupported malarkey.

[stereologist]

1 hour ago, Fila said:

I think NICAP, MUFON, AIRFORCE etc have their own figure.., but from memory it seems to average around 10%.

So around 10% of reports are so bad that nothing can be figured out? I'm surprised the rate of bad reporting is so low.

[Fila]

On 14/12/2017 at 9:46 PM, preacherman76 said:

Mmm you are the one using a straw man here. Fila was right, just cause some reports can be explained certainly doesn’t mean all can. You are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Then demanding that pointing out that flawed thinking is a straw man. 

Thank you, I felt like I was going crazy.

[stereologist]

1 hour ago, preacherman76 said:

Mmm you are the one using a straw man here. Fila was right, just cause some reports can be explained certainly doesn’t mean all can. You are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Then demanding that pointing out that flawed thinking is a straw man. 

I never made such a suggestion. Apparently, you too misrepresent posts.

The simple fact of the matter is that there are anecdotes - plenty of them. There is no evidence, just a lot of chatter.

[stereologist]

Just now, Fila said:

Thank you, I felt like I was going crazy.

Time to post support for your position. Where is it?

[preacherman76]

9 minutes ago, Fila said:

Thank you, I felt like I was going crazy.

I tried to warn ya lol.

Personally watching people become so dogmatic about their insistence that there is nothing to this is hilarious. Witness reports might not mean much to folks who have never seen, but for those of us who have, there is nothing anyone can say to change our minds.

[stereologist]

Let's try this again. Part of the OP is government disclosure.

Where is there any evidence that the government has something to disclose? So far not a single thing has been posted.

[Fila]

On 14/12/2017 at 10:56 PM, preacherman76 said:

I tried to warn ya lol.

Personally watching people become so dogmatic about their insistence that there is nothing to this is hilarious. Witness reports might not mean much to folks who have never seen, but for those of us who have, there is nothing anyone can say to change our minds.

The anger and hatred towards people wanting to research UFOs is intense. Like, actual attacking anger. Its kinda scary.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Fila

[stereologist]

1 minute ago, preacherman76 said:

I tried to warn ya lol.

Personally watching people become so dogmatic about their insistence that there is nothing to this is hilarious. Witness reports might not mean much to folks who have never seen, but for those of us who have, there is nothing anyone can say to change our minds.

Why not post something? Can you do that? Every thread just becomes a showcase of an inability for believers to post something.

You suggest you believe because you saw something you did not understand. Another story with no evidence.

[stereologist]

1 minute ago, Fila said:

The anger and hatred towards people wanting to research UFOs is intense. Like, actual attacking anger. Its kinda scary.

All you have to do  is support your opinion. Pretending that people asking for evidence are exhibiting anger or hatred is childish at best.

[Fila]

On 14/12/2017 at 10:59 PM, stereologist said:

Why not post something? Can you do that? Every thread just becomes a showcase of an inability for believers to post something.

You suggest you believe because you saw something you did not understand. Another story with no evidence.

It's probably best if we stop talking for a bit.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Fila

[stereologist]

In this thread we have someone posting about the misrepresentations from a group. One I posted the misrepresentation the thread dried up. Fairly typical. The claim of "characteristics not known to be terrestrial in known physics dynamics" turned out to be an unsupported opinion.

 

[stereologist]

3 minutes ago, Fila said:

I'm actually trying to find the 'block user' button. It's probably best if we stop talking for a bit.

Why not post some evidence instead of pretending there is some?

[preacherman76]

9 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Let's try this again. Part of the OP is government disclosure.

Where is there any evidence that the government has something to disclose? So far not a single thing has been posted.

I cant really speak on that as a whole, as I have no idea what the government knows. I do know several people including my Mother and sister who witnessed a sighting of what is called the Hudson valley boomerang. Unsolved mysteries did a whole show on it. Eye witness reports from police who followed it, up to 5000 eye witnesses reported seeing it. Security at Indian point power plant testified it stopped and hovered at one of the reactors, and they requested a helicopter from west point to knock it down. When it arrived, this craft that was estimated to be as large as 3 football fields just took off.

In the paper a few days later there was a article saying it was ultra light planes flying in formation. Which according to many witness reports from people in every walk of life, from doctors to police and everything in between, said that explanation was ridiculous. My mother and sister agreed with that assessment. So to me, that is a government, even if just local, cover up.

[preacherman76]

19 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Why not post something? Can you do that? Every thread just becomes a showcase of an inability for believers to post something.

You suggest you believe because you saw something you did not understand. Another story with no evidence.

Post what?

I understood what I saw just fine. It was a flying silent disk that flew around like a bumble bee for a half hour just above my home. At one point it even descended towards us and got close enough that we nearly ran. I know what I saw.

Now I'm not claiming to know where it came from, or who was flying it, but it was very clearly a flying saucer with capabilities beyond our reach. At least as far as public knowledge is concerned.

Edited December 14, 2017 by preacherman76

[stereologist]

3 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

I cant really speak on that as a whole, as I have no idea what the government knows. I do know several people including my Mother and sister who witnessed a sighting of what is called the Hudson valley boomerang. Unsolved mysteries did a whole show on it. Eye witness reports from police who followed it, up to 5000 eye witnesses reported seeing it. Security at Indian point power plant testified it stopped and hovered at one of the reactors, and they requested a helicopter from west point to knock it down. When it arrived, this craft that was estimated to be as large as 3 football fields just took off.

In the paper a few days later there was a article saying it was ultra light planes flying in formation. Which according to many witness reports from people in every walk of life, from doctors to police and everything in between, said that explanation was ridiculous. My mother and sister agreed with that assessment. So to me, that is a government, even if just local, cover up.

Think about this story. West Point is a school. Does it have active weapons on its base? They don't have a "helicopter from west point to knock it down". Oh brother.

The Hudson boomerang was a hoax. Just examining the witness reports shows that the reports did not match up.

[stereologist]

3 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Post what?

I understood what I saw just fine. It was a flying silent disk that flew around like a bumble bee for a half hour just above my home. At one point it even descended towards us and got close enough that we nearly ran. I know what I saw.

Now I'm not claiming to know where it came from, or who was flying it, but it was very clearly a flying saucer with capabilities beyond our reach. At least as far as public knowledge is concerned.

So you saw something and did not understand what you saw and have labeled it something "with capabilities beyond our reach."

I've seen things I misidentified. Later I figured out what I was seeing.

[preacherman76]

10 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Think about this story. West Point is a school. Does it have active weapons on its base? They don't have a "helicopter from west point to knock it down". Oh brother.

The Hudson boomerang was a hoax. Just examining the witness reports shows that the reports did not match up.

Stop pretending you know anything about west point. I've lived next to if for nearly my entire life, and I can promise you they have helicopters. As well as many other military machines.

[preacherman76]

9 minutes ago, stereologist said:

So you saw something and did not understand what you saw and have labeled it something "with capabilities beyond our reach."

I've seen things I misidentified. Later I figured out what I was seeing.

Sorry man, I know you feel you have to defend this, but you are wrong. And there is no other way about it.

[stereologist]

The Hudson boomerang is a good example of the sort of poor witness statements that form the basis for UFO reports. Even when the answer is determined people deny it. They deny it because their memories of what they saw are poor.

[stereologist]

1 minute ago, preacherman76 said:

Stop pretending you know anything about west point. I've lived next to if for nearly my entire life, and I can promise you they have helicopters. As well as many other military machines.

Stop pretending you know anything about West Point. They do not have armed weapons on their helicopters.

[stereologist]

1 minute ago, preacherman76 said:

Sorry man, I know you feel you have to defend this, but you are wrong. And there is no other way about it.

With that attitude then you are wrong. people tell all sorts of stories. I have been with people that told me they were viewing spaceships taking off. I told the it was a line of cars driving up a mountain. They told me no mountain is out there. I offered them my binoculars but they chose not to look. Wonder why?

[preacherman76]

23 minutes ago, stereologist said:

The Hudson boomerang is a good example of the sort of poor witness statements that form the basis for UFO reports. Even when the answer is determined people deny it. They deny it because their memories of what they saw are poor.

Well the problem is the answer was impossible. Number 1 ultra lights are very loud. No way every account is going to report a silent craft. Not one witness heard noise. Number 2 it was flying up and down the Hudson River. If you lived here you'd know the wind alone that's comes through the valley in no way is going to allow these tiny craft to fly in perfect formation. If it allows them to fly there at all. Thirdly it was illegal to fly ultra lights at night in this area at the time, yet no arrests were made. EDT- they flew to indian point power plant. A nationally secured area. People would have been sent to prison for life.

The boomerang is a good example, on how folks like yourself dismiss 5000 people for an impossible explanation. Who cling to what they want to hear, no matter how ridiculous it is. There are several police officers who testify watching it hover just above their patrol cars. How the heck are ultra lights going to that? Silently no less?

Edited December 14, 2017 by preacherman76