3,100 Tomb Found in China

[Piney]

https://www.livescience.com/61170-china-tomb-full-of-soup-bowls.html

[SHaYap]

Not too sure if they got it right with the 'soup' bowls to be honest ...
 

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Censer - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censer

A censer, incense burner or perfume burner (these may be hyphenated) is a vessel made for burning incense or perfume in some solid form. These vessels vary greatly in size, form, and material of construction, and have been in use since ancient times in many cultures, in both secular and religious contexts. They may ...

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Antique Chinese Censers | Collectors Weekly

https://www.collectorsweekly.com/asian/chinese-censers

A censer is a bowl made to hold burning incense, often crafted from bronze, copper, porcelain, or stone. The first Chinese vessels designed specifically for burning incense appeared during the Western Han Dynasty, from 206 BC to 8 AD. By this time, ancient bowls like the ceramic dou or three-legged bronze ding had been ...

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• Google images link

[Piney]

One looks like a nomad's feasting cauldron. It was from the Shang and they worshipped "Shangti" (Tengri) the god of Turkic and Mongolian nomads. It could be a feasting cauldron for worshiping Tengri

[Herr Falukorv]

I guess they liked sharkfin soup 

[Oniomancer]

42 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Not too sure if they got it right with the 'soup' bowls to be honest ...
 

• Google images link

 

From the second link:

" ancient bowls like the ceramic dou or three-legged bronze ding had been adapted as vessels to hold ceremonial offerings, and eventually became the prototypes for incense holders. "

Censers are usually fairly smallish things, aren't they? This looks like it's liable to be pretty good sized.

[SHaYap]

2 minutes ago, Oniomancer said:

 

From the second link:

" ancient bowls like the ceramic dou or three-legged bronze ding had been adapted as vessels to hold ceremonial offerings, and eventually became the prototypes for incense holders. "

Censers are usually fairly smallish things, aren't they? This looks like it's liable to be pretty good sized.

Hiay there Mr Oniomancer ... long time ....

I'm somewhat puzzled over the claims of 'prototypes' here ... I believe the time frame difference is up for debate ... I'm not sure how far back the evidence goes but just as 'bowls' this seems a bit over elaborate ... customarily speaking soups and hot pots are designed to heat up quick and cool slow but cooling down is a must ...

On the sizes, it varies ... for home or lesser deities can be no bigger than a Wedgewood tea cup, while at the grand old temples it can be as big as ... well as large as it is possible to make for the day ...

( I can't find any images of the big ones on googles and I'm too lazy to go Facebook but suffice to say those at the grand temples can be anywhere from four to six and three to five in height ... though nowadays copper or bronze is extremely rare ... kinda all looted and melted down during WW2 )

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[Oniomancer]

4 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Hiay there Mr Oniomancer ... long time ....

I'm somewhat puzzled over the claims of 'prototypes' here .

 

Chinese had a habit of adopting antique forms and re-using them for later objects with different purposes, the same way we use old vase forms as bases for modern lamps now. Things like the ding and some of the wine vessels would've been obsolete but still considered fashionable to have in the home.

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I believe the time frame difference is up for debate ... I'm not sure how far back the evidence goes but just as 'bowls' this seems a bit over elaborate ... customarily speaking soups and hot pots are designed to heat up quick and cool slow but cooling down is a must ...

Cold climate cooking? The mass would retain heat a while . There again I've seen some like that that that were intended for holding or heating large quantities of wine.

4 minutes ago, third_eye said:

On the sizes, it varies ... for home or lesser deities can be no bigger than a Wedgewood tea cup, while at the grand old temples it can be as big as ... well as large as it is possible to make for the day ...

( I can't find any images of the big ones on googles and I'm too lazy to go Facebook but suffice to say those at the grand temples can be anywhere from four to six and three to five in height ... though nowadays copper or bronze is extremely rare ... kinda all looted and melted down during WW2 )

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I had a feeling. It makes difference whether it was placed with more utilitarian wares I would think.

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, Oniomancer said:

Chinese had a habit of adopting antique forms and re-using them for later objects with different purposes, the same way we use old vase forms as bases for modern lamps now. Things like the ding and some of the wine vessels would've been obsolete but still considered fashionable to have in the home.

I understand all that, the CHinese also has that tight traditional sentiments that all things ritualistic and utilitarian are kept well and far apart. I doubt 'fashionable' is a concern here, thousands of years kinda makes the case for all things fashion somewhat redundant. What is used and kept for the deities is strictly only for the deities as far as I know ... its a big boo boo if one were to serve feasts or banquets with anything that resembles wares made for ritual purposes, if I'm not wrong, even the language is strictly distinct, when conducting religious ceremonies (or funereal ) is mixed up

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1 minute ago, Oniomancer said:

Cold climate cooking? The mass would retain heat a while . There again I've seen some like that that that were intended for holding or heating large quantities of wine.

Rice wine ? Again as far as I know not too likely, rice wines and liquors are mainly served in porcelain cups, except in instances of high level official banquets where the protocol is much more elaborate, on casual occasions even the Emperor goes back to the simple and well used horns or porcelains. Haven;t really looked at it from the Academic Research perspective truth be told, I'm strictly speaking from experience from my time hanging out with the 'elders'

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1 minute ago, Oniomancer said:

I had a feeling. It makes difference whether it was placed with more utilitarian wares I would think.

I dunno Mr Oniomancer, just saying from my perspective as a Chinese fella is all ...

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[Oniomancer]

1 minute ago, third_eye said:

I understand all that, the CHinese also has that tight traditional sentiments that all things ritualistic and utilitarian are kept well and far apart. I doubt 'fashionable' is a concern here, thousands of years kinda makes the case for all things fashion somewhat redundant. What is used and kept for the deities is strictly only for the deities as far as I know ... its a big boo boo if one were to serve feasts or banquets with anything that resembles wares made for ritual purposes, if I'm not wrong, even the language is strictly distinct, when conducting religious ceremonies (or funereal ) is mixed up

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Other way around. They'd be copying utilitarian forms for ritual objects, or ritual for ritual.  Are there no "secular" incense burners either? 

Time wouldn't really be that big of an issue. Some forms have a degree of continuity and it would be comparable with western antiquity fads like neo-classicism.

1 minute ago, third_eye said:

 

Rice wine ? Again as far as I know not too likely, rice wines and liquors are mainly served in porcelain cups, except in instances of high level official banquets where the protocol is much more elaborate, on casual occasions even the Emperor goes back to the simple and well used horns or porcelains. Haven;t really looked at it from the Academic Research perspective truth be told, I'm strictly speaking from experience from my time hanging out with the 'elders'

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Served in but not served from. Take for example those tripod bronze beakers. There's several forms of vessel associated with older dynasties that were all intended for serving wine.  Presumably this holds for cooking utensils as well.

1 minute ago, third_eye said:

I dunno Mr Oniomancer, just saying from my perspective as a Chinese fella is all ...

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It has been a while.  The Malaysian bit in your profile throws me every so often.  I'm mainly going by what I've read elsewhere. If one looks it up, there's evidence to suggest both views may be partially correct though I'm inclined to go by this, building on the above:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_ritual_bronzes

Note this passage, " The ritual bronzes were probably not used for normal eating and drinking; they represent larger, more elaborate versions of the types of vessels used for this, and made in precious materials."

The form shown in the article is similar to the ding but it lacks the elevated legs for placing a brazier underneath. In fact it doesn't seem to match any of the forms precisely but I assume they had good reason for labeling it as they did.

[SHaYap]

2 hours ago, Oniomancer said:

Other way around. They'd be copying utilitarian forms for ritual objects, or ritual for ritual.  Are there no "secular" incense burners either? 

Can't say that I would know the difference for sure, Religious and Secular is hard to put in one side away from the other ... the best I can think of wuold be Ancestral Worship and Deity Specific ... in accordance to Feng shui principals that would be the locations where in the home they would be situated.

THere are little distinctions such as how the incense burners will be 'designed' and where they will be placed in relation to the others. For example : the Heavenly Deity would be at the front entrances, the Earth Deity must be on the Ground (Earth not flooring), then it goes on to the specific deity of the Clan or Family such as GOddess of Mercy or Buddha or whatever ... each has its own sets of specific ritual distinctions and paraphernalia. Most times we don;t know exactly and the old folks do disagree on the where and how

At times it depends on the specifics of House itself, for example if the main entrance is facing something inauspicious ... then there will be a need to refer to some other set of 'rules'

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2 hours ago, Oniomancer said:

Time wouldn't really be that big of an issue. Some forms have a degree of continuity and it would be comparable with western antiquity fads like neo-classicism.

I am not too sure about that ... fads and the Chinese in regards to things like these seldom ends up in the same page ...

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2 hours ago, Oniomancer said:

Served in but not served from. Take for example those tripod bronze beakers. There's several forms of vessel associated with older dynasties that were all intended for serving wine.  Presumably this holds for cooking utensils as well.

From what I do know, what is used to 'serve' the deities ... serve guests ... and to serve persons of higher status is different not only in the manner of 'quality' or value ... but that is rather old school and seldom adhered to as strictly as before ...

As for cooking utensils, I know more of this as I did apprenticeship for a fair bit, the difference lays more towards cooking styles and what is on the recipe rather than what is perfunctory or otherwise. I remember Anthony Bourdain puts it all together rather well, much better than I could ever possibly could even if I put every ounce of my capability to it.

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2 hours ago, Oniomancer said:

It has been a while.  The Malaysian bit in your profile throws me every so often. 

Sorry ...

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2 hours ago, Oniomancer said:

 

I'm mainly going by what I've read elsewhere. If one looks it up, there's evidence to suggest both views may be partially correct though I'm inclined to go by this, building on the above:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_ritual_bronzes

Note this passage, " The ritual bronzes were probably not used for normal eating and drinking; they represent larger, more elaborate versions of the types of vessels used for this, and made in precious materials."

The form shown in the article is similar to the ding but it lacks the elevated legs for placing a brazier underneath. In fact it doesn't seem to match any of the forms precisely but I assume they had good reason for labeling it as they did.

Funny thing is I think that is exactly what I was hinting at but couldn't find the words ... one thing I must add is that the elevated legs does not necessarily mean it is for that function specifically, it could be just because its not supposed to be sitting/touching whatever it is placed over ... I know I know ... but its that old school thing ...

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Its rather on the early side and shallow end of the morning for me here ... it has been awhile since I really put my thoughts over things like this in English and I'm struggling like a Chinaman with the mind caught between sleep and dreaming ...

Cheers ~

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[Oniomancer]

1 hour ago, third_eye said:

Can't say that I would know the difference for sure, Religious and Secular is hard to put in one side away from the other ... the best I can think of wuold be Ancestral Worship and Deity Specific ... in accordance to Feng shui principals that would be the locations where in the home they would be situated.

THere are little distinctions such as how the incense burners will be 'designed' and where they will be placed in relation to the others. For example : the Heavenly Deity would be at the front entrances, the Earth Deity must be on the Ground (Earth not flooring), then it goes on to the specific deity of the Clan or Family such as GOddess of Mercy or Buddha or whatever ... each has its own sets of specific ritual distinctions and paraphernalia. Most times we don;t know exactly and the old folks do disagree on the where and how

At times it depends on the specifics of House itself, for example if the main entrance is facing something inauspicious ... then there will be a need to refer to some other set of 'rules'

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Ah, Feng Shui. Forgot about that. In the west of course the emphasis is mostly on something that smells nice.

1 hour ago, third_eye said:

 

I am not too sure about that ... fads and the Chinese in regards to things like these seldom ends up in the same page ...

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Fad is perhaps the wrong word.  More fashion as I said. In a sense classical never really went completely out of style after the Renaissance but the taste waxes and wanes in cycles.  Likewise the "classical" Chinese aesthetic has always had some appeal while other aspects of the culture evolved around it. If you look at paintings from the Tang on up, you frequently see antique or antique-style vessels in the background. Carvings were also often done to imitate older forms. (a tradition which survives in the modern art forgery market)

1 hour ago, third_eye said:

From what I do know, what is used to 'serve' the deities ... serve guests ... and to serve persons of higher status is different not only in the manner of 'quality' or value ... but that is rather old school and seldom adhered to as strictly as before ...

As for cooking utensils, I know more of this as I did apprenticeship for a fair bit, the difference lays more towards cooking styles and what is on the recipe rather than what is perfunctory or otherwise. I remember Anthony Bourdain puts it all together rather well, much better than I could ever possibly could even if I put every ounce of my capability to it.

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Sorry ...

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Funny thing is I think that is exactly what I was hinting at but couldn't find the words ... one thing I must add is that the elevated legs does not necessarily mean it is for that function specifically, it could be just because its not supposed to be sitting/touching whatever it is placed over ... I know I know ... but its that old school thing ...

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As I said, assuming the article is quoting the experts and not their own fancy, I'm just going by what they and others say. No idea whether that attribution was originally made by eastern or western authorities but I would think the latter would've given the former an argument, and the range of precise terminology seems to suggest long familiarity.

Now that I look at the ding though, I'm not entirely convinced that's what it is. To me it looks like nothing so much as an ancient form of Fryalator, perhaps evidence of a forgotten advanced technology.. This conclusion is even supported by the name:

1 hour ago, third_eye said:

Its rather on the early side and shallow end of the morning for me here ... it has been awhile since I really put my thoughts over things like this in English and I'm struggling like a Chinaman with the mind caught between sleep and dreaming ...

Cheers ~

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As long as you don't get confused and think you're a butterfly.

[Piney]

2 hours ago, third_eye said:

Can't say that I would know the difference for sure, Religious and Secular is hard to put in one side away from the other ... the best I can think of wuold be Ancestral Worship and Deity Specific ... in accordance to Feng shui principals that would be the locations where in the home they would be situated.

THere are little distinctions such as how the incense burners will be 'designed' and where they will be placed in relation to the others. For example : the Heavenly Deity would be at the front entrances, the Earth Deity must be on the Ground (Earth not flooring), then it goes on to the specific deity of the Clan or Family such as GOddess of Mercy or Buddha or whatever ... each has its own sets of specific ritual distinctions and paraphernalia. Most times we don;t know exactly and the old folks do disagree on the where and how

Most Westerns don't understand the concept that a "home" is "sacred space" and objects kept in a home are sacred and must be placed in a certain way in a certain spot the way some American Indian tribes and Asians do. 

[SHaYap]

2 hours ago, Oniomancer said:

As long as you don't get confused and think you're a butterfly.

As long as its the social type ... I won't mind

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