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markdohle

The Mystery of Our Lady of Guadalupe’s Eyes

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markdohle

The Mystery of Our Lady of Guadalupe’s Eyes

The eyes of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe are one of the great enigmas of science, according to a Peruvian engineer José Tonsmann, who has extensively studied this “mystery.”

This graduate of Cornell University has spent more than 20 years examining the image of the Virgin printed on the coarse and fibrous tilma worn by Saint Juan Diego, who received the apparitions that would decisively change the history of the continent.

Continue: https://mysticpost.com/2017/12/mystery-lady-g


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Herr Falukorv

pareidolia 

Edited by Herr Falukorv
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papageorge1

This whole story is amazing and it was one instrumental key in the conversion of the Native Americans to Christianity. To this day, they seem to be the most ardent and devoted followers of Christianity perhaps in the world.

As to the eyes, I have to believe after 20 years of study, this guy knows what he is talking about. Both eyes matching so well and after so many years of its exposure to the environment? I feel this is highly likely to be what we call a miracle apparition of Mary to a peasant.

I know anything paranormal will have its attackers and there is no end to that, so we each have to think for ourselves. I have looked it to this a fair amount in the past and believe an Unexplained Mystery (miracle) is what is most likely the case.

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markdohle
38 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

This whole story is amazing and it was one instrumental key in the conversion of the Native Americans to Christianity. To this day, they seem to be the most ardent and devoted followers of Christianity perhaps in the world.

As to the eyes, I have to believe after 20 years of study, this guy knows what he is talking about. Both eyes matching so well and after so many years of its exposure to the environment? I feel this is highly likely to be what we call a miracle apparition of Mary to a peasant.

I know anything paranormal will have its attackers and there is no end to that, so we each have to think for ourselves. I have looked it to this a fair amount in the past and believe an Unexplained Mystery (miracle) is what is most likely the case.

Yes, I agree, yet if I were, say, an atheist, I would have to come up with some other explanation. 

Peace
mark

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markdohle
1 hour ago, eight bits said:

Howdy, mark

Alas, no. From the article:

In other words, he created a new image which, with the help of

(Danke, Herr Falukorv) he interprets as thirteen people, one of whom is presenting flowers to another.

That, of course, is the problem. The overall work was painted by human hand. It is beautiful, so let us celebrate our species and say that this beauty is the work of one of us, and that that is miracle enough.

Actually how it was created is much more complicated than someone painting it. 

 

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eight bits

Well, mark, I don't expect you to agree with my description, but the idea that it is a painting isn't original with me. Let me hang a few links:

https://www.snopes.com/is-virgin-of-guadalupe-living/

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4201

https://www.csicop.org/sb/show/miraculous_image_of_guadalupe

If a 16th Century Franciscan described it as a painting, as is reported to be the case, then I think it's OK for me to follow suit :) .

 

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papageorge1
3 hours ago, eight bits said:

Well, mark, I don't expect you to agree with my description, but the idea that it is a painting isn't original with me. Let me hang a few links:

https://www.snopes.com/is-virgin-of-guadalupe-living/

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4201

https://www.csicop.org/sb/show/miraculous_image_of_guadalupe

If a 16th Century Franciscan described it as a painting, as is reported to be the case, then I think it's OK for me to follow suit :) .

 

Snopes, skeptoid,  csicop , will predictably present only one side of any story related to the paranormal. It's OK to cite them, but I would need to hear more of the story before taking their conclusion. You can quickly get anything you want so-called 'debunked' on the internet.

I looked into this a fair amount in the past and I think the painting explanation is just the best (and only possible) 'explain-away' attempt but doesn't fit the full facts if you watch the video provided for one.

 

 

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eight bits

papageorge

Quote

Snopes, skeptoid,  csicop , will predictably present only one side of any story related to the paranormal. It's OK to cite them, but I would need to hear more of the story before taking their conclusion. You can quickly get anything you want so-called 'debunked' on the internet.

The issue was narrow: I characterized the object as a painting, and the OP objected to the adequacy of that characterization. The sites I posted document a long consistent history of describing the object as a painting.

The sites are no more "biased" about the paranormal than the video which the OP posted to support his objection. Since the paranormal has no bearing on whether or not any material object is a painting, and all sides agree that this object's maker was a human being (the controversy being which human being), I have met my burden to support the statement, "The overall work was painted by human hand."

Quote

but doesn't fit the full facts if you watch the video provided for one.

Some of the crucial assertions made in the video are disputed, and so it is unsatisfactory to call the producers' version of events "facts." For example, what the video cites as the earliest complete written record of the incident may not have originated at the time the video claims for it.

As for the unexpected longevity of the item (putting aside the obvious sample bias, that if it didn't still exist, then we wouldn't still be discussing it), the longest-lived examples from a group of usually ephemeral objects may be very long-lived indeed compared with the group average:

https://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/28990

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stereologist

I went to this site to see photos of the eyes.

http://www.sancta.org/eyes.html

I also looked at the link from the OP and it is quite clear that the two images are very different. The mystic post article has a fake image at the top.

Looks like papageorge1 has been fooled again.

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moonman

Total pareidolia, and not very good at that. Two completely different images that are just a bunch of garbled shapes.

Edited by moonman
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Piney

It was nothing more than a Aztec Corn Mother Priest trying to preserve her sacred site and some semblance of her worship by syncretizing her with the Virgin Mary. .....and @papageorge1 nothing good ever came to us from Christianity except  death and cultural destruction. 

Edited by Piney
typo
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papageorge1
42 minutes ago, Piney said:

. .....and @papageorge1 nothing good ever came to us from Christianity except  death and cultural destruction. 

Why so negative? You know, some people actually see a lot of good in Christian religion. Much good has come to those that live it correctly with love in their hearts. Faith and family is the core of happiness for so many in Mexico. In fact one study, for what it is worth, had Mexicans the happiest people in the world and their faith was a big contributor.

 

Buettner then looked the areas of religion and family and said that these are strong factors in the Mexican people being so happy. The book refers to worldwide research that showed that religious people are happier than nonreligious people. On page 153, Buettner quoted Ed Diner's book "Happiness," explaining why religion is an indicator of happiness: “it’s religion’s broader lessons that lead to happiness – acting selfless and morally, having a sense of purpose, finding meaning in daily activities, and expanding positive emotions on a continual basis.” Mexico is the home to more religious people than other countries. The combination of religion and family creates a social network that promotes happiness. Families and gathering for religious activities creates socializing and fun for Mexican people. Socializing with friends and at parties also creates an atmosphere of capitalizing on the good they celebrate at any occasion.

Link

Edited by papageorge1

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Piney
39 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

 In fact one study, for what it is worth, had Mexicans the happiest people in the world and their faith was a big contributor.Link

That study was done in one town........

How many Mexicans are you around? Yeah, they are faithful, I've worked alongside of them logging and ranching and still do. They are no happier than anyone else. A matter of fact considering the crime problem the rural and poor ones are less happier. They worry about family and friends back home.

The Catholic Church did nothing but slaughter, enslave, maim and forcefully convert Indians and they still haven't addressed the "Doctrine of Discovery" giving them the "right" to act that way.

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papageorge1
55 minutes ago, Piney said:

That study was done in one town........

How many Mexicans are you around? Yeah, they are faithful, I've worked alongside of them logging and ranching and still do. They are no happier than anyone else. A matter of fact considering the crime problem the rural and poor ones are less happier. They worry about family and friends back home.

The country has been ranked #1 in the world........Mexicans Are The Happiest People In A New Global Survey ...

The enlightening point of the survey is that the things we assume are what make people happy, are really not the most important things.

1 hour ago, Piney said:

The Catholic Church did nothing but slaughter, enslave, maim and forcefully convert Indians and they still haven't addressed the "Doctrine of Discovery" giving them the "right" to act that way.

Well, you can't blame any of that on Mary and Jesus, which is where their faith and devotion rests.

 

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Piney
9 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

The country has been ranked #1 in the world........Mexicans Are The Happiest People In A New Global Survey ...

The enlightening point of the survey is that the things we assume are what make people happy, are really not the most important things.

They only surveyed  the upper class.

9 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Well, you can't blame any of that on Mary and Jesus, which is where their faith and devotion rests.

Did I? I said the Catholic Church. Not "Mary and Jesus".

 

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papageorge1
1 minute ago, Piney said:

They only surveyed  the upper class.

Source? That would be way too stupid of a way to run a survey for me to believe for a second.

 

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Piney
Just now, papageorge1 said:

Source? That would be way too stupid of a way to run a survey for me to believe for a second.

 

You don't get out much do you? 

You gotta visit the poorer sections of Veracruz or Oaxaca. I didn't see much police let alone internet or survey takers. 

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papageorge1
1 minute ago, Piney said:

You don't get out much do you? 

You gotta visit the poorer sections of Veracruz or Oaxaca. I didn't see much police let alone internet or survey takers. 

I have visited Mexico multiple times and saw more ardent religious believers and simple happier people than I recall seeing anywhere else. That is what the worldwide survey is also saying.

I guess people's attitudes affect how they see things. I suspect I am more positive than you about religion and the world in general?

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Piney
Just now, papageorge1 said:

I have visited Mexico multiple times and saw more ardent religious believers and simple happier people than I recall seeing anywhere else. That is what the worldwide survey is also saying.

I guess people's attitudes affect how they see things.

 

I wasn't there as a tourist in the "nice" areas. That is where you see the happy people. 

Just now, papageorge1 said:

I suspect I am more positive than you about religion and the world in general?

It must be nice to be naive and oblivious....

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papageorge1
Just now, Piney said:

It must be nice to be naive and oblivious....

Continue on then with your negative attitudes

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Piney
1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

Continue on then with your negative attitudes

Negative attitude? More like I live in something called "reality"

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papageorge1
Just now, Piney said:

Negative attitude? More like I live in something called "reality"

So do I. And to me that involves seeing all sides of things, not just wallowing in the negative. My view is balanced overall.

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Piney
Just now, papageorge1 said:

So do I. And to me that involves seeing all sides of things, not just wallowing in the negative. My view is balanced overall.

Yes with your spirits, fairies ,greys, and the Easter Bunny

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papageorge1
9 minutes ago, Piney said:

Yes with your spirits, fairies ,greys, and the Easter Bunny

No Easter Bunny.

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