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DOCUMENTARY: I know what I saw


Fila

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heres something I once posted about "witness reports"....so try this....be a witness yourself..    TIP,,,..concentrate on the team in white shirts....count how many times they passed the ball...

Would you make a good witness?

 

 

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Getting a bit tired of the constant bickering in these UFO threads.

Fila - stop misrepresenting what Stereolgist is saying.

Everyone - keep it civil please, there's far too much hostility going on in here.

Final warning for this thread before we close it down.

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When we get to the Phoenix lights we see that there are many different descriptions of what happened. One of the best places to check is the work of Tony Ortega, the newspaper reporter that covered the event and aftermath.

https://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-05-21/

Quote

Some early eyewitnesses perceived that it was high in the sky, others swore it was low and moving very slowly. (And I mention “early” purposely. As the months passed, more and more elaborate — and ridiculous — claims were made by eyewitnesses who were clearly trying to one-up each other.)

One of the issues that witnesses differed on was how high the supposed craft was over the ground. This is only one of many things that witnesses did not agree on.

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9 minutes ago, stereologist said:

When we get to the Phoenix lights we see that there are many different descriptions of what happened. One of the best places to check is the work of Tony Ortega, the newspaper reporter that covered the event and aftermath.

https://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-05-21/

One of the issues that witnesses differed on was how high the supposed craft was over the ground. This is only one of many things that witnesses did not agree on.

to be fair stereo, if a plane flew over say a 20 mile distance now and we took eye witness reports along the way, I guarantee they would all vary in both 'altitude' and colours/shape.....

 

be curious to know if you have any of the eye witness testimonies in one place to be able to see these differences? I struggled to get this info years ago.

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3 minutes ago, quillius said:

to be fair stereo, if a plane flew over say a 20 mile distance now and we took eye witness reports along the way, I guarantee they would all vary in both 'altitude' and colours/shape.....

 

be curious to know if you have any of the eye witness testimonies in one place to be able to see these differences? I struggled to get this info years ago.

I heartily agree. Fila states that they were unable to find any big differences in witness reports. I have been saying that witnesses often give a big difference. The Phoenix lights are a good example.

Mitch Stanley sees planes high up. Then we have Tim Lay

http://phoenixlights.blogspot.com/

Quote

As to it’s altitude above me, it was so close that at first I felt oppressed by its presence because it covered so much total area in our neighborhood and it was impossibly low. My first impression was that it was about 100 feet up in the air. It was so close, it was hard to believe.

In one case have planes flying high overhead. In another case we have it barely off the ground. Although is quite a bit of relief in the Phoenix area, it cannot account for the huge discrepancy in reports.

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15 minutes ago, stereologist said:

I heartily agree. Fila states that they were unable to find any big differences in witness reports. I have been saying that witnesses often give a big difference. The Phoenix lights are a good example.

Mitch Stanley sees planes high up. Then we have Tim Lay

http://phoenixlights.blogspot.com/

In one case have planes flying high overhead. In another case we have it barely off the ground. Although is quite a bit of relief in the Phoenix area, it cannot account for the huge discrepancy in reports.

I think what I ideally wanted before was to try and see what testimony came at what time and at what exact location. lets pretend it was a triangular craft (or whatever).....the quote you put forth could be when it was at its lowest, it does not mean that the said craft stayed at said height throughout the long journey, hence why you have varying reports....what I wanted to do previous was try and plot the testimonies with 'height estimates' etc and times and to see if they showed any consistency at different times in different locations.

(apologies for the poor articulation of my point, hope you decipher it ok)

 

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1 hour ago, quillius said:

I think what I ideally wanted before was to try and see what testimony came at what time and at what exact location. lets pretend it was a triangular craft (or whatever).....the quote you put forth could be when it was at its lowest, it does not mean that the said craft stayed at said height throughout the long journey, hence why you have varying reports....what I wanted to do previous was try and plot the testimonies with 'height estimates' etc and times and to see if they showed any consistency at different times in different locations.

(apologies for the poor articulation of my point, hope you decipher it ok)

 

The problem for consistency is that after Tim Lay's observation it is right over Phoenix with the video. There is a timeline of events and that timeline shows a steady speed of 400mph. I do not recall a single witness suggesting that the craft was stopped or suddenly changed speed. Tim Lay who claimed it was so low never mentions anything other than a steady approach.

The idea that people can determine the height of lights at night is nearly impossible. There have been posters her talking about a UFO behind the trees and they are filming Venus. I believe Tim Lay thought it was low and slow when it could have been high and fast. He formed an early opinion that this was a solid craft. That caused any other observations to be adjusted to meet that idea.

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7 minutes ago, stereologist said:

The problem for consistency is that after Tim Lay's observation it is right over Phoenix with the video. There is a timeline of events and that timeline shows a steady speed of 400mph. I do not recall a single witness suggesting that the craft was stopped or suddenly changed speed. Tim Lay who claimed it was so low never mentions anything other than a steady approach.

The idea that people can determine the height of lights at night is nearly impossible. There have been posters her talking about a UFO behind the trees and they are filming Venus. I believe Tim Lay thought it was low and slow when it could have been high and fast. He formed an early opinion that this was a solid craft. That caused any other observations to be adjusted to meet that idea.

way too much for me to gt into again.

anyhow I have found this which I have never seen before, so will digest at some point and see if anything is worth discussing...if not then I am going to hide away and enjoy christmas with the family :)

http://www.cufos.org/pdfs/Skeptical_Explanations_Appendix_A.pdf

 

 

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18 hours ago, Fila said:

lol, I fell asleep to it last night. What do you think about some of the cases though? Are they all lies, hallucinations and mis-IDs?
 

I think misidentified aircraft and weather related phenomena can easily explain most of what has been reported. The other side is there are people who automatically affix alien spacecraft to something they are not familiar with. This can be because they simply are conditioned to believe this way. However, they can be the hoaxers who know they can make money off these wild claims. Regardless, the video when evaluated holistically is worthless. It is a work of fiction with bit actors who at one point or another encountered something they could not easily explain or misidentified and now exploit the gullibility of others for profit.

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On 18/12/2017 at 10:28 PM, quillius said:

The problem is that people cannot even get the basic first step right of it being two separate incidents.....or at very least should be treated in that way. There are even suggestions we could look at separating it into three incidents. There were even emails dug up relating to Mitch....as I said lost of in depth discussions, but once reading them you will be left being less conclusive about your conclusion than you were prior to reading....

my head hurts just thinking about it!

Yea, its a nightmare trying to figure out. It just seems to like we put in so much effort to find these emails about 1 guy who sad it was planes.., trying as hard as we can to prove it was planes.., rather than just listening to the hundreds of people who said they saw something 100's of times larger than any aircraft moving slowly across the sky silently.

We complain about UFO witnesses just telling stories.., but then we use stories (Mitch) to discount the initial claim.., and we accept it because its most likely. Meanwhile several hundred people still claim they saw something completely different.., and one opinion trumps hundreds of others? 
 

IF 1 person see's a UFO.., BUT 700 people saw a plane, THEN It was a plane

IF 700 people see a UFO.., BUT 1 person saw a plane, THEN It was a plane.

 

Yea..., I get it. Its most likely not going to be a UFO. But I cannot officially draw a conclusion this way Literally can't. This is not my personal opinion. I am just literally not allowed to do this. Sorry, I'm getting on the defensive again. Stoopid aliens gettin me all worked up, lol.

Edited by Fila
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On 19/12/2017 at 0:00 AM, seeder said:

heres something I once posted about "witness reports"....so try this....be a witness yourself..    TIP,,,..concentrate on the team in white shirts....count how many times they passed the ball...

Would you make a good witness?

Hahaha, that's really cool. Thanks Seeder.
Me and my step-brother were watching a fight in the street last month, and when we recalled it later.., we had different opinions on exact details. He is into brand name clothes and stuff, and he could remember the clothes they worse, colours and heaps of stuff. I was amazed at this.

Whereas I tend to keep my vision wide and see the whole thing, I can remember the other crowds of people, how they reacted, the few cars that drove past, I  saw where the 2nd guy came from to help his mate... blah blah. Anyway. Point is that no one has a photographic memory.

Its apparently impossible in the true sense. If you take a photo of something.., you can review that photo and see everything from the colour of a persons hat.., to how many blue pens are on the table. Everything in that image can be reviewed. Human brains are not like this...

However.., just because I didn't know he was wearing white Adidas sneakers.., and just because my step-brother didn't see the 2nd guy come in.., cannot be used as an argument to say the event never happened. Its just not a sufficient argument.

Edited by Fila
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12 minutes ago, Fila said:

Hahaha, that's really cool. Thanks Seeder.
Me and my step-brother were watching a fight in the street last month, andwhen we recalled it later.., we had different opinions on exact details. He isinto brand name clothes and stuff, and he could remember the clothes they worse, colours and heaps of stuff. I was amazed at this.

Whereas I tend to keep my vision wide and see the whole thing, I can remember the other crowds of people, how they reacted, the few cars that drove past, I  saw where the 2nd guy came from to help his mate... blah blah. Anyway. Point is that no one has a photographic memory.

Its apparently impossible in the true sense. If you take a photo of something.., you can review that photo and see everything from the colour of a persons hat.., to how many blue pens are on the table. Everything in that image can be reviewed. Human brains are not like this...

However.., just because I didn't know he was wearing white Adidas sneakers.., and just because my step-brother didn't see the 2nd guy come in.., cannot be used as an argument to say the event never happened. Its just not a sufficient argument.

 

and thats the issue with the vid title..." I know what I saw".... yes well most who watched the vid I posted DIDNT see the gorilla the first time, even tho it was clearly there.....our memories are known to 'fill in blanks'....or even 'create additional scenes'....that never happened to start with,,,, its a well known phenomena.... so when we have a bunch of guys claiming they KNOW what they saw...we HAVE to automatically think to ourselves....that error is built into their memories and so we shouldnt accept at face value, what is being recalled.... as 100%

 

 

 

Edited by seeder
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On 19/12/2017 at 11:01 AM, seeder said:

and thats the issue with the vid title..." I know what I saw".... yes well most who watched the vid I posted DIDNT see the gorilla the first time, even tho it was clearly there.....our memories are known to 'fill in blanks'....or even 'create additional scenes'....that never happened to start with,,,, ots a well known phenomena.... so when we have a bunch of guys claiming they KNOW what they saw...we HAVE to automatically think to ourselves....that error is built into their memories and so we shouldnt accept at face value, what is being recalled....

This is a great example of not noticing something happen. Like watching a street magician.., you are so focused on his hands you want to see how he tricks you. You don't even notice the surrounding crowd, what they are wearing, brand names, colours of handbags, or others walking by. ., even someone wearing a costume.

Or "HEY, Look over there at that guy and watch how many times he bounces a ball" will mean I'm bringing my focus and attention to that particular activity, as opposed to just being naturally aware of surroundings. I'm forced to watch a basketball, my vision and perspective narrows.

But while watching that video.., I didn't hallucinate at large solid V-shaped craft, bigger than buildings slowly and silently hovering at low altitude. How can we explain that?

Edited by Fila
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who knows?  But can we be sure it was anything at all?

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5 hours ago, seeder said:

who knows?  But can we be sure it was anything at all?

Insert theme music...ta ta ta

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9 hours ago, Fila said:

Yea, its a nightmare trying to figure out. It just seems to like we put in so much effort to find these emails about 1 guy who sad it was planes.., trying as hard as we can to prove it was planes.., rather than just listening to the hundreds of people who said they saw something 100's of times larger than any aircraft moving slowly across the sky silently.

We complain about UFO witnesses just telling stories.., but then we use stories (Mitch) to discount the initial claim.., and we accept it because its most likely. Meanwhile several hundred people still claim they saw something completely different.., and one opinion trumps hundreds of others? 
 

IF 1 person see's a UFO.., BUT 700 people saw a plane, THEN It was a plane

IF 700 people see a UFO.., BUT 1 person saw a plane, THEN It was a plane.

 

Yea..., I get it. Its most likely not going to be a UFO. But I cannot officially draw a conclusion this way Literally can't. This is not my personal opinion. I am just literally not allowed to do this. Sorry, I'm getting on the defensive again. Stoopid aliens gettin me all worked up, lol.

ok, hundreds of people saying they saw something 100's of times larger than any craft......there's a starting point......where are these testimonies of hundreds of people?

Its certainly not about believing one guy who said it was planes. I really think you need to read a thread or two, from memory one was called 'phoenix lights revisited' not sure if this is the thread where I dug into Mitch but I do strongly recommend you read them. Many of the comments you are making have been discussed.

For me, after all we discussed and debated I concluded that the 10.30 event does seem to be flares. The earlier event I am not sure about, I do not buy the jet formation and I do not buy mile wide alien ship.....I just don't know. I do still think there were more than two events that day/night, but to try and extract meaningful testimony, meaningful facts from the event is very tough as it is now swamped with rubbish, got to love the internet!

good luck

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On 19/12/2017 at 8:24 PM, quillius said:

ok, hundreds of people saying they saw something 100's of times larger than any craft......there's a starting point......where are these testimonies of hundreds of people?

That's a great question. I was wondering this about all the other cases too. I even searched for them when posting the 1956 documentary.., but couldn't find them.  I will try and track down Frances Barwood's contact, and ask for a copy of what she collected. I could only find 2 so far... http://www.nuforc.org/phoenix/phoenixslides.html .

This is fun! :) Let's try and look for that Mitch guys one too.

On 19/12/2017 at 8:24 PM, quillius said:

For me, after all we discussed and debated I concluded that the 10.30 event does seem to be flares. The earlier event I am not sure about, I do not buy the jet formation and I do not buy mile wide alien ship.....I just don't know. I do still think there were more than two events that day/night, but to try and extract meaningful testimony, meaningful facts from the event is very tough as it is now swamped with rubbish, got to love the internet! good luck

That's cool, you're actually looking at it objectively. i like that. I'll take your advice and read through some of the older threads. Will be away for a few days tho, tty then.

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4 hours ago, Fila said:

That's a great question. I was wondering this about all the other cases too. I even searched for them when posting the 1956 documentary.., but couldn't find them.  I will try and track down Frances Barwood's contact, and ask for a copy of what she collected. I could only find 2 so far... http://www.nuforc.org/phoenix/phoenixslides.html .

This is fun! :) Let's try and look for that Mitch guys one too.

That's cool, you're actually looking at it objectively. i like that. I'll take your advice and read through some of the older threads. Will be away for a few days tho, tty then.

I spent hours upon hours trying to track it all down...so even before we get into what did they see, you hopefully can now see the problem, you have taken a repeated comment made on thousands of sites and printed material that quote 'hundreds of witnesses'....now I am not saying there isn't but tracking down these testimonies may be harder than you think.

may start off as fun but it will drain the soul out of you :)

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16 hours ago, Fila said:

Yea, its a nightmare trying to figure out. It just seems to like we put in so much effort to find these emails about 1 guy who sad it was planes.., trying as hard as we can to prove it was planes.., rather than just listening to the hundreds of people who said they saw something 100's of times larger than any aircraft moving slowly across the sky silently.

We complain about UFO witnesses just telling stories.., but then we use stories (Mitch) to discount the initial claim.., and we accept it because its most likely. Meanwhile several hundred people still claim they saw something completely different.., and one opinion trumps hundreds of others? 
 

IF 1 person see's a UFO.., BUT 700 people saw a plane, THEN It was a plane

IF 700 people see a UFO.., BUT 1 person saw a plane, THEN It was a plane.

 

Yea..., I get it. Its most likely not going to be a UFO. But I cannot officially draw a conclusion this way Literally can't. This is not my personal opinion. I am just literally not allowed to do this. Sorry, I'm getting on the defensive again. Stoopid aliens gettin me all worked up, lol.

That's not necessarily true. Several people reported planes. One had a telescope that could see the planes and their lights.

The UFO promoters have pushed the idea of UFOs. People that reported flying craft were collected. Those reporting planes were avoided. Suppose there were 700 people that saw a plane. As already pointed out with links some stated it was high, some low. The people reported different shapes for the UFO. They reported different colors for the UFO.

Did all 700 agree on what they saw? NOOOOO. As I already pointed out it led to all sorts of stories about multiple UFOs flying over the city that night.

 

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16 hours ago, Fila said:

*snip*

But while watching that video.., I didn't hallucinate at large solid V-shaped craft, bigger than buildings slowly and silently hovering at low altitude. How can we explain that?

So you are choosing just one of a wide variety of descriptions for the UFO claimed to pass over the city of Phoenix? Why are you doing that? What makes one person so special?

No one claims hallucinations except you. Why are you suggesting hallucinations?

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30 minutes ago, stereologist said:

That's not necessarily true. Several people reported planes. One had a telescope that could see the planes and their lights.

The UFO promoters have pushed the idea of UFOs. People that reported flying craft were collected. Those reporting planes were avoided. Suppose there were 700 people that saw a plane. As already pointed out with links some stated it was high, some low. The people reported different shapes for the UFO. They reported different colors for the UFO.

Did all 700 agree on what they saw? NOOOOO. As I already pointed out it led to all sorts of stories about multiple UFOs flying over the city that night.

 

curious as to how you know this Stereo? from memory I only recall three accounts of planes (one of those was Mitch).....

As alluded to before, I think maybe more than the two primary things happened that night....remember the snow 'something' ? cant quite remember but wasn' there a report of a pilot calling in that were on training...damn memory?!?!?!

 

edit: they were canadian I believe returning from an exercise 

Edited by quillius
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Fila you might start by finding the first and last reports of the so-called UFO. Look at the distance and the time and see that the so-called UFO was traveling at 400mph which makes Tim Lay quite wrong.

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38 minutes ago, quillius said:

curious as to how you know this Stereo? from memory I only recall three accounts of planes (one of those was Mitch).....

As alluded to before, I think maybe more than the two primary things happened that night....remember the snow 'something' ? cant quite remember but wasn' there a report of a pilot calling in that were on training...damn memory?!?!?!

 

edit: they were canadian I believe returning from an exercise 

I said several because I could think of Mitch, the video taker, and some state troopers. There were reports from a few people such as the state troopers that the lights were planes because they moved relative to each other. There were reports of a plane in the back that was trying to catch up according to some of the witnesses.

It has been a while and I am trying to find the early report which was a state trooper. I am also looking for the path of the reports which seems to be hard to find right now.

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Here is info from a UFO site.

http://www.nuforc.org/EncyclopediaPhoenixLights.htm

Quote

Witnesses were reporting such markedly different objects and events that night that it was difficult for investigators to understand what was taking place.  Some witnesses reported five lights, others seven, or even more.  Some reported that the lights were distinctly orange or red, whereas others reported distinctly white or yellow lights.  Many reported the lights were moving across the sky at seemingly high speed, whereas others reported they moved at a slow (angular) velocity, or they even hovered motionless for several minutes.

As I have repeatedly stated, the witnesses gave conflicting statements.

They decide that the witnesses are all correct and decide that a fleet of UFOs went by.

Quote

These apparent discrepancies, together with the large number of communities from which sightings were being reported in rapid sequence, raised early suspicions that multiple objects were involved in the event, and that they perhaps were traveling at high speed.  These suspicions would be borne out over subsequent months, following extensive investigation by many individuals.  The investigations pointed to the fact that several objects, all markedly different in appearance, and most of them almost unbelievably large, passed over Arizona that night.

Notice that Mitch Stanley is noticeably missing as is mention of any video of event #1.

 

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