A Real Time Connection with God

[Mr Walker]

22 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

It is you having the trouble understanding beyond your experiences. 

Why would you the transcender of all emotions in childhood, single handedly rewiring your neural connections into Spock like mental constructs (in a single bound) have a need for faith? 

My point exactly.  I don't have faith. Rather,  I spent years doing as you outline, and  eliminating fear, anger, etc., while i was an atheist and secular humanist I was trying to make myself into a better person 

My wife has no fears, grief,  worries, or anxieties, simply because she has complete faith in god.

Two different procedures

.A common outcome 

One takes years, many hours of work and effort, and a lot of self discipline.  The other comes complete with simple faith.  

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, Mr Walker said:

Your "blind fanaticism" was the standard world view for a majority for much of European history  Indeed until Darwin and modern science there was no other world view which provided much pf a challenge.

And no it requires few cognitive skills, although it does require human level cognition No other animals have such beliefs  It is an evolved survival  technique and part of our self aware consciousness 

The examples you give show the frailty of human faith and what can happen if it is not strong enough  but also what can be achieved with it  eg you can walk on water   That is why they were written to make these points.

  Knowing is not faith I know god personally and physically yet my wife is far more obedient to him because her faith is absolute and comes form within   She would not, and could not, ever doubt and would obey and die happily unlike those you quote who had doubt 

I know and understand the skepticism and disbelief of atheists I was one myself for 20 years  My question is why is it so difficult for them to understand ,  in others,  this total and complete faith in a god. So that not only would you give your life willingly and fearlessly for that god but ha t oyu  would have total faith that it would resurrect you and give you eternal life     Thus having no fear of death, or worry about life because god will provide for you (and does so) 

I don't ask or expect others to have faith.  I have none myself.  But i cant see how the y can deny that such faith exists in many humans, and is so powerful that it can eliminate, or a t least minimise,  fear,  grief, loss and pain.   It takes away all the basis or rationale for the greatest human fears and thus for loss grief and suffering. 

bull****. That only works for fanatics who eschew all reason and logic and such people are few and far between. No parent should have to bury their child and whatever faith has to offer--in this world, at least--is little comfort for the mother whose arms ache with emptiness. I, myself, fear the experience of dying, as my father did, awake and aware of what was happening to him. At the same time, I have no fear of death, itself, for either there is something beyond or there is nothing and nothing is nothing to fear.

[+Sherapy]

6 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Emotions are cathartic, and essential qualities of human existence and one's emotional needs are best served, not by simple suppression, but by cognitive reappraisal.         https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4168764/                      

Yepper’s, positive reappraisal, reframing in a way that is believable to the person due to the brains neuroplasticity.

For ex: On the forgiveness of Helen, I couldn’t wrap my head around it because for me, this was the equivalent of justifying and excusing sociopathic behavior lending to more anxiety for me. So we reframed it basically that her behavior was unforgivable, I was appropriately appalled and would always be, but eventually I would heal as my emotions are geared to this naturally and I would move on or let go. As you know, as you are my friend that I have healed. 

 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Yepper’s, positive reappraisal, reframing in a way that is believable to the person due to the brains neuroplasticity.

For ex: On the forgiveness of Helen, I couldn’t wrap my head around it because for me, this was the equivalent of justifying and excusing sociopathic behavior lending to more anxiety for me. So we reframed it basically that her behavior was unforgivable, I was appropriately appalled and would always be, but eventually I would heal as my emotions are geared to this naturally and I would move on or let go. As you know, as you are my friend that I have healed. 

 

 

I know and am glad for you. Just promise me this one thing; in remembering how it was for her, don't make the mistake she did, don't close any doors behind you.

[+Sherapy]

21 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Your "blind fanaticism" was the standard world view for a majority for much of European history  Indeed until Darwin and modern science there was no other world view which provided much pf a challenge.

And no it requires few cognitive skills, although it does require human level cognition No other animals have such beliefs  It is an evolved survival  technique and part of our self aware consciousness 

The examples you give show the frailty of human faith and what can happen if it is not strong enough  but also what can be achieved with it  eg you can walk on water   That is why they were written to make these points.

  Knowing is not faith I know god personally and physically yet my wife is far more obedient to him because her faith is absolute and comes form within   She would not, and could not, ever doubt and would obey and die happily unlike those you quote who had doubt 

I know and understand the skepticism and disbelief of atheists I was one myself for 20 years  My question is why is it so difficult for them to understand ,  in others,  this total and complete faith in a god. So that not only would you give your life willingly and fearlessly for that god but ha t oyu  would have total faith that it would resurrect you and give you eternal life     Thus having no fear of death, or worry about life because god will provide for you (and does so) 

I don't ask or expect others to have faith.  I have none myself.  But i cant see how the y can deny that such faith exists in many humans, and is so powerful that it can eliminate, or a t least minimise,  fear,  grief, loss and pain.   It takes away all the basis or rationale for the greatest human fears and thus for loss grief and suffering. 

How would you know if you have no faith yourself?

Even Jesus lost faith and gave in to doubt in the Garden of Gethsemane.

[+Sherapy]

3 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I know and am glad for you. Just promise me this one thing; in remembering how it was for her, don't make the mistake she did, don't close any doors behind you.

I promise. 

[Mr Walker]

7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Emotions are cathartic, and essential qualities of human existence and one's emotional needs are best served, not by simple suppression, but by cognitive reappraisal.         https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4168764/                      

Constructive emotions are cathartic and productive.

Destructive emotions destroy lives, disempower people, cause them to commit violence, affect physical and mental health negatively,  and  sometimes make them incapable of going on living.  

Ive never argued for the elimination of  emotions, but for  people to learn how, and why, emotions are constructed, and then to learn to construct beneficial emotional responses 

You do not SUPPRESS any emotions, you chose which ones you will build and use.  The idea of suppressing emotions presupposes that there is only one possible emotional response  to an event.  That simply is not true.

  Hence my example of the two couples, whose sons were murdered.

One couple chose forgiveness, peace of mind, love, and to remember/focus on, their son's life  rather than his murder. The other sought vengeance, and  was filled with hate.   Their minds were angry and could not focus on living  They were consumed by thoughts of their son's death rather than his life  After many years they manged to survive but In a much lessened way  and indeed, have now chosen to move right away from their remaining family, to Tasmania.  

[+Sherapy]

43 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

My point exactly.  I don't have faith. Rather,  I spent years doing as you outline, and  eliminating fear, anger, etc., while i was an atheist and secular humanist I was trying to make myself into a better person 

My wife has no fears, grief,  worries, or anxieties, simply because she has complete faith in god.

Two different procedures

.A common outcome 

One takes years, many hours of work and effort, and a lot of self discipline.  The other comes complete with simple faith.  

You don’t eliminate fear, anger, etc...they are integral to our nature. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Constructive emotions are cathartic and productive.

Destructive emotions destroy lives, disempower people, cause them to commit violence, affect physical and mental health negatively,  and  sometimes make them incapable of going on living.  

Ive never argued for the elimination of  emotions, but for  people to learn how, and why, emotions are constructed, and then to learn to construct beneficial emotional responses 

You do not SUPPRESS any emotions, you chose which ones you will build and use.  The idea of suppressing emotions presupposes that there is only one possible emotional response  to an event.  That simply is not true.

  Hence my example of the two couples, whose sons were murdered.

One couple chose forgiveness, peace of mind, love, and to remember/focus on, their son's life  rather than his murder. The other sought vengeance, and  was filled with hate.   Their minds were angry and could not focus on living  They were consumed by thoughts of their son's death rather than his life  After many years they manged to survive but In a much lessened way  and indeed, have now chosen to move right away from their remaining family, to Tasmania.  

Complete forgiveness is for Saints, Mr. Walker, I don't know of any, myself. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Hammerclaw

[Mr Walker]

20 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

bull****. That only works for fanatics who eschew all reason and logic and such people are few and far between. No parent should have to bury their child and whatever faith has to offer--in this world, at least--is little comfort for the mother whose arms ache with emptiness. I, myself, fear the experience of dying, as my father did, awake and aware of what was happening to him. At the same time, I have no fear of death, itself, for either there is something beyond or there is nothing and nothing is nothing to fear.

Again, your definition of fanatic  is actually that of a normal person with complete belief and faith in god. Normally this does not drive them  to anything negative, but provides them with a  powerful protective force in their life. 

 Are you saying that a modern woman who simply believes that she will be reunited with her child after death, and believes this completely, is a fanatic?  Or that  an older person who has no faer of death or dying because they believe completely  that the y will have eternal life Is a fanatic.

    If so it is strange how normality and fanaticism alter in definition over time It is normal for people to believe in god and heaven  I often feel abnormal for not believing.   Most of the people I know are atheists but many others  have that total faith and belief in god.

  It is laughable to think of them as fanatics, just  because they have such faith. 

Which mother will have the most comfort, and thus the lesser grief?  One with no belief in any after life or one with complete faith that they shall be reunited with their child.

  That is one of the important  practical functions, which belief and faith offers to believers. 

[Mr Walker]

9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

You don’t eliminate fear, anger, etc...they are integral to our nature. 

And that is where you are totally wrong.  They are LEARNED emotional/intellectual  responses.  You can go to a competent specialist  psychologist and they will teach you how to unlearn a fear, even a strong phobic fear.

  Our fear, and thus our anger hatreds etc  which are basically associated with fears, are taught to us by our parents and society, when we a re children. Environment reinforces them

Look inside your self. Discover the cause of your fears and anger How the y evolved and grew within you .    Examine them logically and rationally, and see if they are actually logical and justified.

Yes we need rational caution in many things but we mostly construct irrational fears Hate evolves from  us creating a   cognitive perception of  difference between self and other and fearing that difference  or being jealous of it  We learn to hate that which we do not understand, that which is different from us or that which we feel challenges or threatens us and so we fight with each other and go to war with other countries based on this hate and fear.  Study the propaganda from any war and you will see what i mean.     

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, Mr Walker said:

Again, your definition of fanatic  is actually that of a normal person with complete belief and faith in god. Normally this does not drive them  to anything negative, but provides them with a  powerful protective force in their life. 

 Are you saying that a modern woman who simply believes that she will be reunited with her child after death, and believes this completely, is a fanatic?  Or that  an older person who has no faer of death or dying because they believe completely  that the y will have eternal life Is a fanatic.

    If so it is strange how normality and fanaticism alter in definition over time It is normal for people to believe in god and heaven  I often feel abnormal for not believing.   Most of the people I know are atheists but many others  have that total faith and belief in god.

  It is laughable to think of them as fanatics, just  because they have such faith. 

Which mother will have the most comfort, and thus the lesser grief?  One with no belief in any after life or one with complete faith that they shall be reunited with their child.

  That is one of the important  practical functions, which belief and faith offers to believers. 

I know of no one with that perfect of faith, Mr. Walker, save for fanatics who throw their lives away,  in suicide, to kill their enemies. For most, believing is not the same as knowing--one makes a leap of Faith.

Just as I am, though tossed about

With many a conflict, many a doubt.

Fightings and fears, within and without,

Oh Lamb of God, I come.

[Mr Walker]

17 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Complete forgiveness is for Saints, Mr. Walker, I don't know of any, myself. 

Forgiveness is learned, just as hate, anger, fear and vengeance, are learned constructs Lots of people are capable of total and complete forgiveness (it is only a mental  construct after all )  It is  also, after all, one of the requisites of many beliefs to attain eternal life  Just because something is hard or unfamiliar to us, does not make it impossible 

You truly do not know people capable of complete forgiveness of hurts done to them? 

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, Mr Walker said:

Forgiveness is learned, just as hate, anger, fear and vengeance, are learned constructs Lots of people are capable of total and complete forgiveness (it is only a mental  construct after all )  It is  also, after all, one of the requisites of many beliefs to attain eternal life  Just because something is hard or unfamiliar to us, does not make it impossible 

You truly do not know people capable of complete forgiveness of hurts done to them? 

No. My people, of course, forgive their enemies, after they've received justice. Not exactly the perfection you allude to.

[Mr Walker]

3 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I know of no one with that perfect of faith, Mr. Walker, save for fanatics who throw their lives away,  in suicide, to kill their enemies. For most, believing is not the same as knowing--one makes a leap of Faith.

Just as I am, though tossed about

With many a conflict, many a doubt.

Fightings and fears, within and without,

Oh Lamb of God, I come.

It is true that this is the other extreme of faith,  but it also exists in the  constructive form i describe, and is possessed by many.  I know dozens myself, with that level of faith in god  partly because of some of the circles i move within. 

As i said, believing is more powerful than knowing. Faith more powerful than logic or reason.

I would not die for faith in god, but my wife would  Neither of us would ever harm another  for god,   but then the god we know or believe in, would never ask us to.  

[Mr Walker]

12 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

No. My people, of course, forgive their enemies, after they've received justice. Not exactly the perfection you allude to.

Two separate principles.

Justice is important for many significant reasons  but forgiveness is critical if one wants to heal and move on.

Forgiveness is meant for you, not for the one you are forgiving.

I could totally forgive a person who did me great harm. But by then I might have shot them  Or more realistically i could forgive a person, but expect them to face the full force of the law, and i am pretty tough on law enforcement and punishment.

So if someone killed my wife and i had not killed them in the process, i would like the death penalty or life imprisonment as justice, and as a deterrent to others  but i would forgive the person and not hold anger, hate, or a need for vengeance.

I would not be torn apart with anger and hate .But i would expect justice.

Hypothetically (given i don't believe in heaven) if later i met that person in a heaven or after life  i would have no anger or hate for them, knowing they would not be there unless they were a new and different man to their old self.    

All actions should have consequences and the law should reflect society and community needs and  values Forgiveness is between you and the person who has done you harm.  It would be dangerous to forgive a person AND ask that therefore they not face any consequences for their behaviour.   

Edited March 16, 2018 by Mr Walker

[+Hammerclaw]

10 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

It is true that this is the other extreme of faith,  but it also exists in the  constructive form i describe, and is possessed by many.  I know dozens myself, with that level of faith in god  partly because of some of the circles i move within. 

As i said, believing is more powerful than knowing. Faith more powerful than logic or reason.

I would not die for faith in god, but my wife would  Neither of us would ever harm another  for god,   but then the god we know or believe in, would never ask us to.  

Thank you for your admission of humanity. There are, indeed, times when we find our moral scruples, inconvenient. I know of people who profess to such a faith--but I've never seen any one of them put to the test. I have seen those who profess to great faith, some preachers and holy men, fail at much lesser trials. 

[+Hammerclaw]

5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Two separate principles.

Justice is important for many significant reasons  but forgiveness is critical if one wants to heal and move on.

Forgiveness is meant for you, not for the one you are forgiving.

I could totally forgive a person who did me great harm. But by then I might have shot them  Or more realistically i could forgive a person, but expect them to face the full force of the law, and i am pretty tough on law enforcement and punishment.

So if someone killed my wife and i had not killed them in the process, i would like the death penalty or life imprisonment as justice, and as a deterrent to others  but i would forgive the person and not hold anger, hate, or a need for vengeance.

I would not be torn apart with anger and hate .But i would expect justice.

Hypothetically (given i don't believe in heaven) if later i met that person in a heaven or after life  i would have no anger or hate for them, knowing they would not be there unless they were a new and different man to their old self.    

 

And if the judgment was up to you alone, to punish or have mercy, frontier justice or Christian forgiveness, the gallows or clemency?

Edited March 16, 2018 by Hammerclaw

[+Sherapy]

12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Again, your definition of fanatic  is actually that of a normal person with complete belief and faith in god. Normally this does not drive them  to anything negative, but provides them with a  powerful protective force in their life. 

 Are you saying that a modern woman who simply believes that she will be reunited with her child after death, and believes this completely, is a fanatic?  Or that  an older person who has no faer of death or dying because they believe completely  that the y will have eternal life Is a fanatic.

    If so it is strange how normality and fanaticism alter in definition over time It is normal for people to believe in god and heaven  I often feel abnormal for not believing.   Most of the people I know are atheists but many others  have that total faith and belief in god.

  It is laughable to think of them as fanatics, just  because they have such faith. 

Which mother will have the most comfort, and thus the lesser grief?  One with no belief in any after life or one with complete faith that they shall be reunited with their child.

  That is one of the important  practical functions, which belief and faith offers to believers. 

What you are describing is telling yourself a story to bring comfort in the throes and waves of grief. Going to church can offer temporary comfort, I don't dispute this. 

But, Crying your eyes out is the bodies way of seeking to self comfort. Grief comes in waves, when I walked Into the church for my sisters funeral I collapsed in the aisle racked with uncontrollable sobbing, I was helped to the pew, I couldn't stop,crying, it poured out of me, I couldn't control the sadness. 

My brother-in -law 24 years old was playing with his 3 year old son and dropped dead of a heart attack. I have never seen parents so grief stricken, they were heat broken I will never forget the father he cried for months, his son was amazing. then there was my sister-in-law a young wife so heart broken. It was 25 years ago and I still can't hear the song "how am I supposed to live with out you" by Leeann Rhymes, or retell the story without crying. My sister-in-law never remarried, never loved again, and is very close to her son who is a grown man, now. And the saddest part is my brother-in-law was an amazing dad who adored his son, it was such a loss. 

We use tools,of comfort to get through another day, we don't get over the loss ever, one just resigns to go on, each in their own way and own time. 

 

 

 

[Mr Walker]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Thank you for your admission of humanity. There are, indeed, times when we find our moral scruples, inconvenient. I know of people who profess to such a faith--but I've never seen any one of them put to the test. I have seen those who profess to great faith, some preachers and holy men, fail at much lesser trials. 

You don't know the people i know  

My wife will NEVER commit a sin knowingly, not even lie. She had to have some voting forms witnessed.  She could have got anyone to claim they had observed her sign the forms, but refused to do so,  and waited until she could get an enrolled voter (our gardener who comes once a fortnight)   to actually witness her sign the forms.  She did it with 24 hours before the deadline but said she would rather face civil consequences ( Monetary fine for not voting)   than break an oath or lie. She can't vote on polling day due to her religious beliefs,  but wants to vote as part of her civic responsibility     

[+Hammerclaw]

2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You don't know the people i know  

My wife will NEVER commit a sin knowingly, not even lie. She had to have some voting forms witnessed.  She could have got anyone to claim they had observed her sign the forms, but refused to do so,  and waited until she could get an enrolled voter (our gardener who comes once a fortnight)   to actually witness her sign the forms.  She did it with 24 hours before the deadline but said she would rather face civil consequences ( Monetary fine for not voting)   than break an oath or lie. She can't vote on polling day due to her religious beliefs,  but wants to vote as part of her civic responsibility     

Love is a wonderful thing, your rose-coloured glasses, a mark of devotion. She's lucky to have you.

[Mr Walker]

5 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

And if the judgment was up to you alone, to punish or have mercy, frontier justice or Christian forgiveness, the gallows or clemency?

I believe in law and justice  but also in personal forgiveness. So i would seek legal consequences which enforce and uphold the protection of the community.

But I would  forgive the person personally for harm done to me

  If i was out on the farm and faced an intruder trying to hurt my wife or myself, then i would stop them by any mans necessary We would be the innocent in tha t situation and the consequences would have been brought by the intruder's actions  If they were trying to rob us, but not harm us  then  I would prevent them by any legal means necessary, but not try to detain them, if the y decided to leave rather  than continue. People deserve to be give an opportunity to change their mind and avoid the consequences of a certain behaviour   

[Mr Walker]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Love is a wonderful thing, your rose-coloured glasses, a mark of devotion. She's lucky to have you.

I am the lucky one,  but we must suit each other.  Happily married for 42 years, known her for 46 years,    and I love her just as much now, as when we met on my 21st birthday,  and find her just as beautiful and desirable (thanks to those glasses.) I could take them off but tha t would have consequences which  I choose not to ever face.   

[+Hammerclaw]

5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I believe in law and justice  but also in personal forgiveness. So i would seek legal consequences which enforce and uphold the protection of the community.

But I would  forgive the person personally for harm done to me

  If i was out on the farm and faced an intruder trying to hurt my wife or myself, then i would stop them by any mans necessary We would be the innocent in tha t situation and the consequences would have been brought by the intruder's actions  If they were trying to rob us, but not harm us  then  I would prevent them by any legal means necessary, but not try to detain them, if the y decided to leave rather  than continue. People deserve to be give an opportunity to change their mind and avoid the consequences of a certain behaviour   

Well, welcome to trenches with the rest of us. Morning mess is at six AM. Don't be late.

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

I am the lucky one,  but we must suit each other.  Happily married for 42 years, known her for 46 years,    and I love her just as much now, as when we met on my 21st birthday,  and find her just as beautiful and desirable (thanks to those glasses.) I could take them off but tha t would have consequences which  I choose not to ever face.   

Yes, Fools rush in where angels fear to tread!