A Real Time Connection with God

[Mr Walker]

On 12/03/2018 at 11:47 AM, Sherapy said:

You are portraying yourself as void of empathy and emotions, is this your intention?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No it is your perception  You see empathy acting out in difernt ways to I.

 True caring does no mean always leaving a person to go their own way when you can see that way leading to pain and suffering.  True caring means doing something, where possible, to stop that  person causing themselves, or others, pain and suffering.

  I think it comes from  the different ways we were raised.  I was raised in a loving, empowering and supporting environment a nd given strong positive humanist values and ethics including responsibility to and for others.  From your own writings you had a pretty hard childhood which must have shaped your personality and world views very differently to mine.

I enjoy positive and uplifting empowering emotions.

I chose NOT to have dis empowering, negative, or destructive emotional impulses which lead to poor behaviours and choices in life.   They are neither useful nor necessary. 

Ive experienced the close personal loss of many loved ones and sat through the death of several.

Ive offered help comfort, and  my ear ,to them. And just being there helped.

My mother took a long time to die, and fought it every day before succumbing to pneumonia aged 96. I was with her every day, as the thing she feared most was dying alone.    We spoke abut her life, recalled the highlights and good times.  I never offered any religious thoughts  but we spoke about the nature of death  and loss.

She just didn't want to say good by to those who loved her Together we wrote her eulogy, and i gave it during a funeral to about 300 people. I had to stop a few time s and compose myself My mother father and wife share the greatest love i am capable of giving,  for different reasons.  I have now given the eulogy for both my parents, both my wife's parents and half a dozen other relatives aged young to old, because people LIKE how i speak for the dead.    I gave my love to them all my life   before they died, and i had no guilt associated with any relationship. This helped me face their deaths calmly and without destructive grief.

Of course i grieve. I still think of my parents every day and have their photos on the desk next to my  computer I still listen to their voices of wisdom, and i still ask them for advice  But, i CHOOSE how i feel and how i grieve and  I don't let those emotions control me.    

Edited March 13, 2018 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

23 hours ago, third_eye said:

He's been lying so hard and fast his lies no longer has the teeth to go through ... and I thought nobody would make a catch

Sharp slice Sherapy ...

~

You will need to outline what you see as lies if you want an answer to this. I haven't told any lie that i am conscious of.  You or sherapy may chose to disbelieve something i say or even claim that it is impossible, but this does not make it so.

I know form my own experience that everything i say is possible for a human being .  You can also research human psychology and see what i am talking about and how to achieve it.  Humans are  meant to be in control of their emotions not controlled by them.  Our survival, and evolutionary development, depends on this.  

[+Sherapy]

8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

No it is your perception  You see empathy acting out in difernt ways to I.

 True caring does no mean always leaving a person to go their own way when you can see that way leading to pain and suffering.  True caring means doing something, where possible, to stop that  person causing themselves, or others, pain and suffering.

  I think it comes from  the different ways we were raised.  I was raised in a loving, empowering and supporting environment a nd given strong positive humanist values and ethics including responsibility to and for others.  From your own writings you had a pretty hard childhood which must have shaped your personality and world views very differently to mine.

I enjoy positive and uplifting empowering emotions.

I chose NOT to have dis empowering, negative, or destructive emotional impulses which lead to poor behaviours and choices in life.   They are neither useful nor necessary. 

How did the conversation become about destructive impulses?

We were talking about how you think that rape, murder, abuse, tragedy can be seen as a wonderful positive happy thing. 

What is your understanding of empathy?

Question: If you were raised in a loving supportive environment why do you need to create a god construct (that you cling to) that specifically makes you feel safe and protected?

 

 

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

How did the conversation become about destructive impulses?

We were talking about how you think that rape, murder, abuse, tragedy can be seen as a wonderful positive happy thing. 

What is your understanding of empathy?

Question: If you were raised in a loving supportive environment why do you need to create a god construct (that you cling to) that specifically makes you feel safe and protected?

 

 

First i do n't create a god construct.  I know a real and powerful god who is as it is. I don't need it to feel safe and protected.  I shaped my lack of fear, my abilty to choose my emotional responses,   and my self love and  confidence, in my childhood and  teens, when I was an atheist/ secular humanist 

But you don't believe that.

Second, my values ethics and moralities go back to humanist principles and logic/ outcome- based behaviours. eg every one of us knows right from  wrong, and most of us can predict what will happen as a result of our  behaviours. Thus every one of us is individually responsible for the outcomes of out thoughts and deeds when we choose a behaviour.

Of course humans can perceive tragedies including rape and murder in different ways. Different cultures and different peole do this all the time  and even the term murder, or rape, is conditional with human values and beliefs.

Until the 1960s there WAS no such thing as rape inside a marriage, anywhere in the modern western world, for example    Humans are taught as children what is considered a culturally appropriate response to an event  But this does not make it the natural or only response to an event.  A person who believes their child will be resurrected and join them in a wonderful immortal life after death, will view the death of that child quite differently to one who has no such belief.

My point is that we can CHOOSE any way of looking at something, and not just allow our conditioning to impose one form of response.     Some people are capable of totally forgiving a person who murders one of their children, or some other loved one. Some people can never get over it and never forgive. 

Empathy is a cognitive abilty, of self aware beings, to understand  that others may feel as they feel, suffer as they suffer, love as they love, etc.

It then creates an understanding tha t we can hurt or help other people by our behaviours and even words. 

Taking it a step further, empathy imposes on us a duty and obligation to live in a way which does not do harm to others, and to do all we can to help as many other people as we can;  but basically empathy is our abilty to consciously care about, and for, others.  It can extend to animals and our environment as well   

[+joc]

3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

A person who believes their child will be resurrected and join them in a wonderful immortal life after death, will view the death of that child quite differently to one who has no such belief.

You don't have a clue what you are even talking about!  Not a freaking clue!   You think that the loss of a child is lessened by the belief in an afterlife.  Clueless!  Totally freaking clueless!  

[Mr Walker]

8 minutes ago, joc said:

You don't have a clue what you are even talking about!  Not a freaking clue!   You think that the loss of a child is lessened by the belief in an afterlife.  Clueless!  Totally freaking clueless!  

it is you who doesn't have a clue. It might not work for you, but it works for many, and has done so for  millennia.  Why do you suppose religious beliefs, like those of Christianity, have such an appeal, and really work for people, so that the y do not simply abandon them in modern times of scientific knowledge.

  Maybe I've dealt with many more people suffering from loss than you,  including a lot more religious people, but i can absolute assure you that  a genuine religious conviction that you  will spend your life with your  child and family, for eternity, DOES help people.

 Why do you suppose JWS risk their children's lives on earth, in exchange for such a life after death  They fear that saving a child for their life on earth will condemn it to not having eternal life.  

Have you read ANY of the histories, biographies and personal  stories of people, who only coped with tragedy and death through their faith?  

Ive met many peole who actually openly expressed a belief tha their child or loved one had gone to a better place and was saved from the pain and suffering of an illness or disability on earth, because in heaven they will be perfect and have no pain.. 

I think your response goes a long way to explain why you struggle with the positive power of faith and belief.   You simply don't recognise its reality.

Are you seriously arguing that such faith does not offer comfort to many, and that in historical times, where  70-80% of children died before puberty, , it was not the ONLY thing which offered comfort   Have you really never encountered modern people who only manage to carry on after the death of a child (or a partner or  sibling)  because of their faith?  

I've been a t funerals where loved ones sang songs of praise to god for taking a person in pain or suffering into his bosom. 

[+joc]

1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

it is you who doesn't have a clue. It might not work for you, but it works for many, and has done so for  millennia.  Why do you suppose religious beliefs, like those of Christianity, have such an appeal, and really work for people, so that the y do not simply abandon them in modern times of scientific knowledge.

  Maybe I've dealt with many more people suffering from loss than you,  including a lot more religious people, but i can absolute assure you that  a genuine religious conviction that you  will spend your life with your  child and family, for eternity, DOES help people.

 Why do you suppose JWS risk their children's lives on earth, in exchange for such a life after death  They fear that saving a child for their life on earth will condemn it to not having eternal life.  

Have you read ANY of the histories, biographies and personal  stories of people, who only coped with tragedy and death through their faith?  

Ive met many peole who actually openly expressed a belief tha their child or loved one had gone to a better place and was saved from the pain and suffering of an illness or disability on earth, because in heaven they will be perfect and have no pain.. 

I think your response goes a long way to explain why you struggle with the positive power of faith and belief.   You simply don't recognise its reality.

Are you seriously arguing that such faith does not offer comfort to many, and that in historical times, where  70-80% of children died before puberty, , it was not the ONLY thing which offered comfort   Have you really never encountered modern people who only manage to carry on after the death of a child (or a partner or  sibling)  because of their faith?  

I've been a t funerals where loved ones sang songs of praise to god for taking a person in pain or suffering into his bosom. 

People cope in different ways.  The tragedy of the loss of a child is not lessened by a belief in an afterlife.  A belief in an after life IS at its core, a coping mechanism for the loss of life.  There is no comfort, there is no lessening of pain of the loss of a loved one through belief in an afterlife.  I don't care what people say...they all say the same thing...and it's all a way to cope.  You suggested that someone who loses a child and believes in an afterlife is not affected as negatively as someone who believes in no afterlife.  That's pure idiocy and reflects a mindset that doesn't have a real clue about real people in real tragedies.

[Mr Walker]

54 minutes ago, joc said:

People cope in different ways.  The tragedy of the loss of a child is not lessened by a belief in an afterlife.  A belief in an after life IS at its core, a coping mechanism for the loss of life.  There is no comfort, there is no lessening of pain of the loss of a loved one through belief in an afterlife.  I don't care what people say...they all say the same thing...and it's all a way to cope.  You suggested that someone who loses a child and believes in an afterlife is not affected as negatively as someone who believes in no afterlife.  That's pure idiocy and reflects a mindset that doesn't have a real clue about real people in real tragedies.

For you maybe not.  For many  people i know definitely so.  I am not a believer and so it doesn't help me but then I have no fear of death  and no belief in heaven or hell  I just think you are making assumptions about others based on how oyu personally feel.

  There are people whoa actually feel joy and relief when a loved one dies, because in their minds the y are completely certain the y will meet that person  again and live forever.  Of course the circumstances vary and the loss of a young person is often more deeply felt than that of an older one  You are also correct in that most people will feel some degree of grief loss and  pain which faith will not totally overcome But it helps.

Its not idiocy. It is totally true and it is one of the reasons such religious beliefs evolved and still exist  They serve a psychological purpose in reliving the effects of loss and grief   Haven't  you actually experienced this among your own groups of friends etc?  But maybe you don't  know many  people whose faith and belief is absolute   Of course non religious people can  also evolve different coping methods and ways of reducing grief as well 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC116607/

Conclusion

People who profess stronger spiritual beliefs seem to resolve their grief more rapidly and completely after the death of a close person than do people with no spiritual beliefs.

 

What is already known on this topic

Religious belief affects outcome of bereavement in families coping with the death of a child and in older people who are bereaved of a spouse

Research is often retrospective, and causal connections are difficult to establish

What this study adds

People who profess stronger spiritual beliefs seem to resolve their grief more rapidly and completely after the death of a person close to them than do people with no spiritual beliefs

Most palliative care units involve the family members and friends of the person dying; attention to spiritual matters may be an important component of this work

Our main finding is that strength of spiritual belief is an important predictor of bereavement outcome. People with low strength of belief resolved their grief more slowly during the first nine months but by 14 months had caught up with people with strong beliefs. Participants with no spiritual beliefs had higher grief scores than the remainder at the one month and 14 month follow up points. The comparison fell short of statistical significance, but strength of spiritual belief remained an important predictor after the explanatory power of most other variables was controlled for. Although the degree of closeness to the person who died and the level of emotional distress before the death increased feelings of grief, neither affected the rate at which the grief was resolved.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0080-62342011000200014&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

 

  Death as a determinant of the divine

In the disease and death situation, the family attributes not only the cause of the event, but also, sometimes, the possibility to overcome the experience, a way not to lose hope, to God or hidden forces. When assuming submission to God and acceptance of situations of suffering, it becomes easier to keep going, thus eliminating the weight in accountability regarding the disease or death.

The Lord took her away from Earth so that I can learn to seek God more (Family 16).

I don’t see death as something frightening, I believe that, if it comes, it’s because God will lead us to glory at the right time (Family 15).

Religious faith, associated with the support the spiritual community, grants the family better internal control. All religions offer solutions for the death problem, a control that belongs to God. Religious practice is a strategy to recover strengths lost during the suffering experience. In this context, religious beliefs and practices respond to the emotional need of having future expectations.

My religion has always given me support, even more than others, because we even end up feeling carried on the lap by spirituality (Family 2).

There’s no doubt that my faith was what helped me to win all this (Family 8).

The feeling of knowing that you are being helped, by people, by friends, by their prayers (Family 12).

 

Sorry, links don't seem to work, despite copying and pasting them 

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Mr Walker

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, joc said:

You don't have a clue what you are even talking about!  Not a freaking clue!   You think that the loss of a child is lessened by the belief in an afterlife.  Clueless!  Totally freaking clueless!  

You are so right Joc, religious people may put on a strong face for others but behind closed doors the loss of a child is devastating. 

It doesn’t matter the path one walks to lose a child is awful, the journey of healing long.

My mom, lost her daughter (my sister)  to murder she was similar to MW extreme in her beliefs, and put on a stoic face for her church, she had two mental breakdowns was committed twice for a year at a stretch, My mom  believed my sister was In a better place and would be reunited with her too, but she was also broken hearted for the remainder of her life. 

 

MW doesn’t have kids of his own, and IMHO is gullible and naive he would actually beleive a person would be comforted and it would be a wrap (instant healing) by the idea that they would be reunited, anyone with kids knows better. 

Of course he is clueless, in the sense he doesn’t know any better.

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, joc said:

People cope in different ways.  The tragedy of the loss of a child is not lessened by a belief in an afterlife.  A belief in an after life IS at its core, a coping mechanism for the loss of life.  There is no comfort, there is no lessening of pain of the loss of a loved one through belief in an afterlife.  I don't care what people say...they all say the same thing...and it's all a way to cope.  You suggested that someone who loses a child and believes in an afterlife is not affected as negatively as someone who believes in no afterlife.  That's pure idiocy and reflects a mindset that doesn't have a real clue about real people in real tragedies.

Well said, thank you. 

 

[+Sherapy]

44 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

For you maybe not.  For many  people i know definitely so.  I am not a believer and so it doesn't help me but then I have no fear of death  and no belief in heaven or hell  I just think you are making assumptions about others based on how oyu personally feel.

  There are people whoa actually feel joy and relief when a loved one dies, because in their minds the y are completely certain the y will meet that person  again and live forever.  Of course the circumstances vary and the loss of a young person is often more deeply felt than that of an older one  You are also correct in that most people will feel some degree of grief loss and  pain which faith will not totally overcome But it helps.

Its not idiocy. It is totally true and it is one of the reasons such religious beliefs evolved and still exist  They serve a psychological purpose in reliving the effects of loss and grief   Haven't  you actually experienced this among your own groups of friends etc?  But maybe you don't  know many  people whose faith and belief is absolute   Of course non religious people can  also evolve different coping methods and ways of reducing grief as well 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC116607/

Conclusion

People who profess stronger spiritual beliefs seem to resolve their grief more rapidly and completely after the death of a close person than do people with no spiritual beliefs.

 

What is already known on this topic

Religious belief affects outcome of bereavement in families coping with the death of a child and in older people who are bereaved of a spouse

Research is often retrospective, and causal connections are difficult to establish

What this study adds

People who profess stronger spiritual beliefs seem to resolve their grief more rapidly and completely after the death of a person close to them than do people with no spiritual beliefs

Most palliative care units involve the family members and friends of the person dying; attention to spiritual matters may be an important component of this work

Our main finding is that strength of spiritual belief is an important predictor of bereavement outcome. People with low strength of belief resolved their grief more slowly during the first nine months but by 14 months had caught up with people with strong beliefs. Participants with no spiritual beliefs had higher grief scores than the remainder at the one month and 14 month follow up points. The comparison fell short of statistical significance, but strength of spiritual belief remained an important predictor after the explanatory power of most other variables was controlled for. Although the degree of closeness to the person who died and the level of emotional distress before the death increased feelings of grief, neither affected the rate at which the grief was resolved.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0080-62342011000200014&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

 

  Death as a determinant of the divine

In the disease and death situation, the family attributes not only the cause of the event, but also, sometimes, the possibility to overcome the experience, a way not to lose hope, to God or hidden forces. When assuming submission to God and acceptance of situations of suffering, it becomes easier to keep going, thus eliminating the weight in accountability regarding the disease or death.

The Lord took her away from Earth so that I can learn to seek God more (Family 16).

I don’t see death as something frightening, I believe that, if it comes, it’s because God will lead us to glory at the right time (Family 15).

Religious faith, associated with the support the spiritual community, grants the family better internal control. All religions offer solutions for the death problem, a control that belongs to God. Religious practice is a strategy to recover strengths lost during the suffering experience. In this context, religious beliefs and practices respond to the emotional need of having future expectations.

My religion has always given me support, even more than others, because we even end up feeling carried on the lap by spirituality (Family 2).

There’s no doubt that my faith was what helped me to win all this (Family 8).

The feeling of knowing that you are being helped, by people, by friends, by their prayers (Family 12).

 

Sorry, links don't seem to work, despite copying and pasting them 

 

 

 

You did what you always do, you say something without thinking, claim you are an expert and then go google and say what we are saying and act like this is what you said all along.

This is why some posters conclude you lack empathy. 

I don’t think you are shady, I do think you don’t think before you speak though and geez it causes you a lot of problems. And you can’t admit when you are wrong. You not a bad person, just insensitive at times. 

You say you strive to do no harm, well you don’t know if a poster on here has lost a child, you have to be mindful of others  MW.

Thank you for your attention to this. 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Sherapy

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

You are so right Joc, religious people may put on a strong face for others but behind closed doors the loss of a child is devastating. 

It doesn’t matter the path one walks to lose a child is awful, the journey of healing long.

My mom, lost her daughter (my sister)  to murder she was similar to MW extreme in her beliefs, and put on a stoic face for her church, she had two mental breakdowns was committed twice for a year at a stretch, My mom  believed my sister was In a better place and would be reunited with her too, but she was also broken hearted for the remainder of her life. 

 

MW doesn’t have kids of his own, and IMHO is gullible and naive he would actually beleive a person would be comforted and it would be a wrap (instant healing) by the idea that they would be reunited, anyone with kids knows better. 

Of course he is clueless, in the sense he doesn’t know any better.

Every one is different and is affected by loss and grief differently

You and joc seem to be saying there is only one normal healthy way to deal with loss and grief. This simply isnt true For example i know two different couples who had their  adult sons murdered One couple became totally non functional for years basically giving up their own lives dreams and plans, and was almost torn apart by grief. They hated the murderer held anger for him  and would have killed him if they could The other couple forgave their son's killer  they certainly  grieved but far less powerfully  they continued to  maintain their normal lives, maintaining  a functioning and rational  life and behaviour as the y grieved  and were recovered much more quickly    

You also AGAIN have totally misunderstood what i believe and what i wrote. 

  PLUS AGAIN oyu have insinuated that one loves natural children more than any one else.   Love is love and can be given equally to all.   We loved  the  abandoned kids and teenagers we took into our family just a s much as we would have loved our own And their natural parents had abandoned them,  rejected them, tossed them, out of their homes and refused to show any love care or responsibility for them.

So don't give me bull, about how  natural  parents, alone, can love completely, or more than a non natural parent    I think perhaps your capacity to love more widely was damaged by your childhood, if you seriously believe that.

And before you criticise that as personal comment, just read what you wrote about me, above.  

[LightAngel]

35 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Every one is different and is affected by loss and grief differently

 

I agree!

We all grieve differently...

Please relax, Mr Walker.

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

You did what you always do, you say something without thinking, claim you are an expert and then go google and say what we are saying and act like this is what you said all along.

This is why some posters conclude you lack empathy. 

I don’t think you are shady, I do think you don’t think before you speak though and geez it causes you a lot of problems. And you can’t admit when you are wrong. You not a bad person, just insensitive at times. 

You say you strive to do no harm, well you don’t know if a poster on here has lost a child, you have to be mindful of others  MW.

Thank you for your attention to this. 

 

 

Wrong again i AM an expert. Both from education and experience.

I simply provided some sources to back up my position.  Remember how you  used to criticise me when i didn't  back up a position with evidences .

Now you just claim i am googling my data.  I already KNEW this as part of my professional background training and experience The point of sourcing it is precisely so you CANNOT claim i am factually incorrect. 

Let's  face it.  You are both, so antithetical to,the idea of faith,being an empowerment to people, and antithetical to me personally, that you simply cannot admit to being wrong  

People claim lack empathy to discredit me in a means to discredit my views.

How about trying to prove those views or  statements are incorrect, instead ? Too hard?  

We have ALL lost people we love.

knowing someone has suffered the loss of a child is not a reason to discontinue debate. Why should it hurt such a person to be part of a discussion about means of coping with loss and grief?   This is actually just   another tactic on your part to stop me presenting a perspective which you are afraid to hear.  Also, someone who really is hurt or upset by the discussion can leave it, as i did (below)  but this can't be allowed to stop such a discussion which benefits many I had to walk out of one such discussion as memories of loss got the better of me during a detailed professional  discussion on youth suicide, led by a mother who had lost her son,  but the others continued to gain from it  

  People who lose a child CAN use many ways to alleviate that grief. A powerful faith is one way,  as the sources i gave illustrate There are many articles about how atheists can develop other coping strategies, and find ways to work through grief. The point is that, while you try to deny it, faith and belief can be a powerful help in ANY loss or grieving situation.

Only someone ignorant or foolish, or with an extreme prejudice against faith and belief,  would seriously argue against this pov, it is so well known and accepted. It would not work for all, and some might even be offended by a suggestion that it could work for them, but for many it is an enormous help with loss and grief  

Edited March 13, 2018 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

39 minutes ago, LightAngel said:

I agree!

We all grieve differently...

Please relax, Mr Walker.

Sherapy is trying to annoy me and I must admit with some success Either that or she is incredibly ignorant about how healing, belief and faith can be, for many.  It is i who am saying that grief can come in many forms She is insisting it must fit her model of grief. I simply could not grieve in the way she seems to find normal, nor would i want to do so.   She can grieve in her own way, but cant just deny that others are helped by faith/belief and that separately  i am some how less than human for grieving as i choose to do. 

 How would you feel if you had cared for young people from birth, and sometimes into a second generation, as your family, going through all aspects of their childhood and adolescence with them  and yet someone suggested somehow tha t you could not love them as much as a natural parent loved their children  Last night i visited a great niece to give her a gift for her 21st birthday and also saw  my great grand nephew aged 8 months  We cared for her parents as abandoned teenagers,  having cared for her father in his younger years, when his mother claimed  he was not her son, because the nurses had swapped babies.

He committed suicide aged about 25 when she was about 2 years old  due to his mothers rejection of his  second daughter as her blood.   We then cared for her and her sister as teenagers  when family conflict involving serious violence at  home caused her mother and stepfather to send them away from home   aged 14/15   As a result my wife and i are about the ONLY people who have shown her total and unconditional love  and we have a closer relationship wither than any of her naturla family  and yet sherapy  blithely claims that i cant understand or know loss, or grieve for such a child, because they are not my blood .

The greatest loss in our life was the suicide of her father  (our nephew)    after years of abuse and neglect by his natural mother.  It was us who comforted his hysterical partner on the night of his death  and supported the young family until they could reestablish themselves.   The mother was  by then 22 with 3 children aged  about 7, 2, and newborn.  

15 years later at an education dept  seminar on youth suicide i had to leave the room as it  still brought back memories of that time  I could have suppressed the emotions but i knew the y were natural and healing .  it is not that i do not feel emotions, it is that i chose emotions which are constructive and beneficial, and don't allow them to control or dominate me. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Mr Walker

[LightAngel]

21 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 i am some how less than human for grieving as i choose to do. 

 

 

You are a clever man, so you should know that this isn't about you.

[Mr Walker]

5 minutes ago, LightAngel said:

 

You are a clever man, so you should know that this isn't about you.

  i don't make that assumption.(that it is NOT about me ).   Indeed, given the history between sherapy  and I, it is reasonable to assume that it IS is about how she perceives me to be. Other wise she would address the debate, rather than make personal commentaries as statements of fact.

I am  going to go offline for a while, as i did recently, because I feel this forum has become a place of personal vitriol and commentary, rather  than a place for open and robust debate  of different values and ideas    

[LightAngel]

22 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

  it is not that i do not feel emotions, it is that i chose emotions which are constructive and beneficial, and don't allow them to control or dominate me. 

You have every right to be you!

If people, see you as an enemy just because you are you (and you didn't attack them in any way)

Then it's often because they didn't deal with their own pain.

If you remind people of their unresolved pain, then they will attack you for no reason.

(this isn't about anybody specific, I'm just making a point here)

[Mr Walker]

7 minutes ago, LightAngel said:

You have every right to be you!

If people, see you as an enemy just because you are you (and you didn't attack them in any way)

Then it's often because they didn't deal with their own pain.

If you remind people of their unresolved pain, then they will attack you for no reason.

(this isn't about anybody specific, I'm just making a point here)

I am well aware of this, and also of the particulars you may be referring to  That is part of the wider thought I am pushing  ie that people should not be living in that sort of pain, and there is no good reason for them to have to, not even the loss of a greatly loved one.   Such pain is a symptom of something wrong, often of fear or guilt ,  not of a healthy  emotional response   No one should EVER be so hurt or angry or grief stricken, that they lose control of their responses  and act without thinking. This just compounds the circle and causes further hurt, loss, and grief. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Mr Walker

[LightAngel]

2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I am well aware of this, and also of the particulars you may be referring to  That is part of the wider thought I am pushing  ie that people should not be living in that sort of pain, and there is no good reason for them to have to, not even the loss of a greatly loved one.   Such pain is a symptom of something wrong, often of fear or guilt ,  not of a healthy  emotional response   No one should EVER be so hurt or angry or grief stricken, that they loose control of their responses  and act without thinking. This just compounds the circle and causes further hurt, loss, and grief. 

 

Remember what you just said -  "Every one is different and is affected by loss and grief differently"

Sometimes people need a little help with their pain.

 

[Piney]

48 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

  People who lose a child CAN use many ways to alleviate that grief.

There is no closure there EVER.  There are ways to soften the grief but it is never alleviated....

[LightAngel]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Sherapy is trying to annoy me and I must admit with some success

I don't think she is trying to annoy you, maybe you should look at this in a different way. 

Maybe you hurt her feelings, and if you did, do you care about that?!

If you did hurt her feelings (even if you didn't mean to) - then please help her heal instead of "fighting" with her.

[SHaYap]

10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You will need to outline what you see as lies if you want an answer to this. I haven't told any lie that i am conscious of.  You or sherapy may chose to disbelieve something i say or even claim that it is impossible, but this does not make it so.

The outline, to be as brief as possible, is this, Mr Walker, as long as you offer nothing but your insistence to be taken at your 'word' and nothing else, then you leave me no other choice but to call you a liar, which if I do not will render the rest of us that do not agree nor believe you be rendered as lying by default as implied by your far fetched claims. As long as you render nothing but superfluous personal anecdotes then it is dependent on myself and nothing else to find you convincing or otherwise, which is such circumstance that is as such, it is not only logical but unavoidable that I come to the conclusion that what you propose here as lies because of your insistence that it is truth. You see, you were not stating what you believe, you are declaring, in no dubious terminology that you are stating what is 'reality' and tangling up facts with far fetched over reaching speculations more suited to fiction and fantasies. Hence it eaves me with no option but to come to such a conclusion that all you specify as truth is nothing but lies. Now whether you be conscious or otherwise of the fact, I think that is best left up to yourself.

That being said, you just carry on. Not that it makes any difference to your much renowned indifference, which is evidently all that will do.

~

 

10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I know form my own experience that everything i say is possible for a human being .  You can also research human psychology and see what i am talking about and how to achieve it.  Humans are  meant to be in control of their emotions not controlled by them.  Our survival, and evolutionary development, depends on this.  

You here is the perfect example of the contradictions in all your previous statements and claims that renders your entire abstract both immobile and dead in the womb.

~

[+joc]

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Sorry, links don't seem to work, despite copying and pasting them 

It's okay...it is only your inflated ego that leads you to believe that I actually care enough about what you say to even click on any of your links.

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You and joc seem to be saying there is only one normal healthy way to deal with loss and grief.

Not at all...at least what I am saying is that Religion does not cannot and will not lessen the grief of a person who has lost their child tragically.  It is what people tell each other in an effort to make them feel better...but it doesn't.  I have said nothing about 'healthy way' to grieve.  I am talking about reality.  When the church crowd is gone.  When the friends are gone.   And the person, especially a mother, is left with the realization that her child is also gone...forever.  No Construct of Belief will lessen that pain.  And the thought that it will is one that doesn't actually understand the humanity of that situation.  I.e  Clueless.   It is a matter of Empathy...or rather...the lack of it.   Few things in life are as cut and dried as you make them out to be.

[+Sherapy]

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Wrong again i AM an expert. Both from education and experience.

I simply provided some sources to back up my position.  Remember how you  used to criticise me when i didn't  back up a position with evidences .

Now you just claim i am googling my data.  I already KNEW this as part of my professional background training and experience The point of sourcing it is precisely so you CANNOT claim i am factually incorrect. 

Let's  face it.  You are both, so antithetical to,the idea of faith,being an empowerment to people, and antithetical to me personally, that you simply cannot admit to being wrong  

People claim lack empathy to discredit me in a means to discredit my views.

How about trying to prove those views or  statements are incorrect, instead ? Too hard?  

We have ALL lost people we love.

knowing someone has suffered the loss of a child is not a reason to discontinue debate. Why should it hurt such a person to be part of a discussion about means of coping with loss and grief?   This is actually just   another tactic on your part to stop me presenting a perspective which you are afraid to hear.  Also, someone who really is hurt or upset by the discussion can leave it, as i did (below)  but this can't be allowed to stop such a discussion which benefits many I had to walk out of one such discussion as memories of loss got the better of me during a detailed professional  discussion on youth suicide, led by a mother who had lost her son,  but the others continued to gain from it  

  People who lose a child CAN use many ways to alleviate that grief. A powerful faith is one way,  as the sources i gave illustrate There are many articles about how atheists can develop other coping strategies, and find ways to work through grief. The point is that, while you try to deny it, faith and belief can be a powerful help in ANY loss or grieving situation.

Only someone ignorant or foolish, or with an extreme prejudice against faith and belief,  would seriously argue against this pov, it is so well known and accepted. It would not work for all, and some might even be offended by a suggestion that it could work for them, but for many it is an enormous help with loss and grief  

 No, MW you are not an expert on grief. IMHO

" The grieving process takes time. Healing happens gradually; it can’t be forced or hurried—and there is no “normal” timetable for grieving. Some people start to feel better in weeks or months. For others, the grieving process is measured in years. Whatever your grief experience, it’s important to be patient with yourself and allow the process to naturally unfold."

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/grief/coping-with-grief-and-loss.htm

There would always be a sense of sadness around the loss of a child, one never gets closure. 

For you, since you do not tolerate unpleasant things and have transcended all emotions it makes sense that you would think grief can be wrangled and hogtied into submission. 

My heart goes out to the people you know that lost a child to murder, no parent should ever go through that and that you would judge their grieving process as right or wrong is the reason I pointed out one has to be mindful that what may on your end be help may actually be harmful those grieving require support, understanding and patience. 

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Sherapy