EU to integrate military forces

[Grey Area]

33 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Would you fancy the chances of any British tank (at least until the Comet) against masses of T-34s? The Churchill for strength of armour perhaps (the Russians quite liked it themselves), but it was slow, and always under-armed until the 75 mm, and then that was so-so at best. Not to mention the sheer rate of production. 

Indeed, the T-34 was a good tank and Russia produced so many that massed they could steam roll a battlefield.  But it’s not quite as simple as that.  Initial T-34 designs saw their engines have a shelf life if I recall about 200miles and then the entire engine needed replacing, so pre 1941 it would be a push for any of the Soviet armour to be effective away from their bases with tools and spare parts.

It was only the Nazi invasion that forced the Russians to improve their designs and to kickstart mass production in the numbers needed to counter German armour.

Russia may have had the capability post 1941 If we are talking about this make believe land locked Britain.  

But if we are talking about Russia transporting enough T-3x’s onto the shores of the UK without being intercepted by sea or air then you are living in a dream world, if we add in some of the Allied variants fielded toward the end of the war, aside from the Churchill, like the mounted 17 pounders on the Sherman chassis, I doubt Russia would have been able to mount an effective offensive.

It was German aggression that turned the Ruskies into the fearsome force we saw at the end of the war occupying eastern Berlin and forcing the allies to compromise.

[hetrodoxly]

7 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

Oh boy, really? You are missing the point.

I see the point and it's meaninglesss, if Britain hadn't made the most daring raid of all time and probably the bravest action of WW2 by any side  'The raid on Nazaire or Operation Chariot' keeping the Tirpitz out of the war Germany might have won, if Bletchley Park wasn't set up Germany might have won, if they hadn't made the determined effort to sink the Bismarck Germany might have won, If British paratrooper hadn't gone behind enemy lines to steel German radar and it's operator Germany might have won, etc, etc, etc

8 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

For f's sake... With all German army being wasted in the east front, how much Brits have chances to win single battle in N.Africa? None to zero.

Germany turned east after it failed in it's attempt to invade Britain (Operation Sealion) bad decisions are the reason wars are won or lost, and as i said SAS destroying munitions on the ground played a big part.

[Space Commander Travis]

23 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

see the point and it's meaninglesss, if Britain hadn't made the most daring raid of all time and probably the bravest action of WW2 by any side  'The raid on Nazaire or Operation Chariot' keeping the Tirpitz out of the war Germany might have won,

The Tirpitz was nowhere near St Nazaire, she was in Norway all the time. That was just to make sure that she couldn't use the dockyard at St Nazaire. She was much more of a threat to the Russian convoys. The U-boats were far more a practical danger to the Atlantic convoys.

[hetrodoxly]

2 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

The Tirpitz was nowhere near St Nazaire, she was in Norway all the time. That was just to make sure that she couldn't use the dockyard at St Nazaire. She was much more of a threat to the Russian convoys. The U-boats were far more a practical danger to the Atlantic convoys.

My post is correct, 'Operation Chariot' was to deny the Tirpits and big shipping safe deep anchorage in France, the Tirpitz spent the war hiding and being attacked in Norwegian fjords, it's said "lived an invalid's life and died a cripple's death"

[bmk1245]

3 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

I see the point and it's meaninglesss, if Britain hadn't made the most daring raid of all time and probably the bravest action of WW2 by any side  'The raid on Nazaire or Operation Chariot' keeping the Tirpitz out of the war Germany might have won, if Bletchley Park wasn't set up Germany might have won, if they hadn't made the determined effort to sink the Bismarck Germany might have won, If British paratrooper hadn't gone behind enemy lines to steel German radar and it's operator Germany might have won, etc, etc, etc

Germany turned east after it failed in it's attempt to invade Britain (Operation Sealion) bad decisions are the reason wars are won or lost, and as i said SAS destroying munitions on the ground played a big part.

I have to concede for now. I'd guess alternative history thread would be more suitable.

Sorry for my ramblings, no insults intended.

[hetrodoxly]

51 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

I have to concede for now. I'd guess alternative history thread would be more suitable.

Sorry for my ramblings, no insults intended.

 

No problem i enjoy the debate, im sure you'll think of something and come back

[LV-426]

1 hour ago, bmk1245 said:

Sorry for my ramblings, no insults intended.

Hey, if there was a UM award for rambling, we'd all be winners!

[Space Commander Travis]

9 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

My post is correct, 'Operation Chariot' was to deny the Tirpits and big shipping safe deep anchorage in France, the Tirpitz spent the war hiding and being attacked in Norwegian fjords, it's said "lived an invalid's life and died a cripple's death"

I think she was the most effective warship ever builtin terms of the amount of resources she tied up. She was the main reason the Russian convoys were given such heavy escorts that could well have been employed somewhere else, the Admiralty ordered PQ17 to scatter on a mere rumour that she might be at sea and ended up losing 24 out of 35 ships, and they devoted vast time and resources to designing a midget submarine (the X Craft) specifically to attack her. For the amount she must have cost Germany to maintain her, even with a crew of 2,000,  the amount of British and Allied resources she tied up was extraordinary. And St Nazaire too, what a enormous effort that was, solely devoted to the mere threat that she might one day want to use those facilities. 

[Space Commander Travis]

And Russia was always at the top of Adolf's list, invading Britain was never a high priority until Churchill proved inconveniently stubborn and refused to surrender as Adolf expected, then the whole scheme was cobbled together in haste and he tried to use the Luftwaffe in a role - strategic bombing - that it had never been designed for. His real priority all along was the great crusade against Bolshevism. 

[stevewinn]

Its good to hear St Nazaire mentioned.

 

[bmk1245]

21 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

 

No problem i enjoy the debate, im sure you'll think of something and come back

Sure, I will...

[bmk1245]

20 hours ago, LV-426 said:

Hey, if there was a UM award for rambling, we'd all be winners!

[stevewinn]

I was looking through Junckers tweets,  I noticed this one from when they agreed PESCO.

"She is awake, the sleeping beauty of the Lisbon treaty" - So the first steps of a EU army is/was the sleeping beauty of the treaty. more like Frankenstein monster than sleeping beauty. They grow more sinister.

they left this sleeping beauty lie for a decade what other sleeping beauties are yet to be awoken. I guess its in line with Junckers other quotes such as, " We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back"

 

[Space Commander Travis]

1 hour ago, stevewinn said:

I was looking through Junckers tweets,  I noticed this one from when they agreed PESCO.

"She is awake, the sleeping beauty of the Lisbon treaty"

You follow him on Twitter?  That's a nice use of romantic metaphor there, perhaps he ought to be a poet. 

[keithisco]

1 hour ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

You follow him on Twitter?  That's a nice use of romantic metaphor there, perhaps he ought to be a poet. 

Indeed, why not a poet...he's already an Artist of the Hennessy school 

[keithisco]

In other news from the EU Commission this last week...
 

Quote

 

Juncker Plan launches projects worth around €730 million across Europe

This week the European Investment Bank (EIB) has signed deals worth a total of around €730 million under the European Fund for Strategic Investments (EFSI), the core of the Investment Plan for Europe, the so called Juncker Plan. The signed deals include €330 million for small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) in Austria, €200 million for water infrastructure in Italy, €150 million for five separate projects in Spain, ranging from trains to energy efficient buildings and €50 million for a construction machinery rental service in Finland.

Read more:

 

I am probably just being "churlish"...BUT-  Austria, Italy, Spain, Finland (who want even closer trade ties with the UK after Brexit) strike me as being Countries that either have a strong anti-EU faction, or, in Spain's case, a strong Separatist movement (Cataluña). I would not even consider thinking that the EU was actually offering bribes to these countries to fall in line; never crossed my mind.