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Still Waters

Where did nativity animals come from?

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Essan

Aye, Christmas is just the N Hemisphere solstice/new year festivities redressed to allow followers of some modern Middle Eastern cults to join in as well :) 

On which note, surely the reason for the animals at the navitivity is because they were for dinner?  :D 

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third_eye

 

On 12/17/2017 at 5:06 AM, jmccr8 said:

Ahh just checking are we talking real or mythical animals? You know like real or mythical apples or dogs, one should make the distinction as from what I have learned in this forum is that theu are almost the same thing based on some(one's)logic.

jmccr8

You forgot the 'snake' ... serpent ... something slithery ...

~

 

On 12/18/2017 at 9:14 PM, Grandpa Greenman said:

I'll be darn they get snow, who knew.  The palm trees kind of fool ya.  But it is good most of the traditions some from northern Europe, because palm trees really don't look that great with Christmas lights.

Oh I dunno ... its quite suggestively phallic ... not necessarily a bad thing in some neighborhoods ...

~

 

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jmccr8
6 minutes ago, third_eye said:

 

You forgot the 'snake' ... serpent ... something slithery ...

~

 

Oh I dunno ... its quite suggestively phallic ... not necessarily a bad thing in some neighborhoods ...

~

 

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Yes everyone should get a rise out of that.:whistle:

jmccr8

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third_eye
3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Like

Yes everyone should get a rise out of that.:whistle:

jmccr8

Wot-a-bot dental and medical ... ?

~ :lol:

 

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Mr Walker
On 18/12/2017 at 3:41 AM, Orphalesion said:

There are no "3" Magi in the Bible, merely an unspecified number of "magi" but yes the idea that they are a product of Zoroastrian influence does have merit. Especially since there seems to be a LOT of Zoroastrian influence in the bible as whole, possibly originating from contact during the Babylonian exile. For example Satan as he exists today in Christianity and Islam might be a mixture of the original Ancient Hebrew Accuser and Ahriman/Angra Mainyu, the concept of a spectacular end of the world and a resurrection of the dead might also originate from there, as well as the idea of omnipotence and omniscience.
And yes there's some evidence that the identity of both of Jesus' parents were fabricated to provide Jesus with connection to Hebrew history and mythology/theology. Mary is a translation of Miriam, a name possibly chosen in the image of Moses' sister, while Joseph was likely named after the son of Jacob (Israel) and Rachel. 

The virgin birth might originate from an attempt to link Jesus to the "criteria" needed for him to be the Messiah that were listed by Isaiah, which might have been wholly unnecessary since it's possible that the Hebrew word used in the passage "Almah" means simply a young woman (a girl, by modern standards) who has just reached childbearing age, but hasn't given birth yet, rather than a virgin who has never been touched by a man.
Of course the same passage also claims the messiah will be named "Immanuel" which is decidedly not the same name as Yeshua/Jesus/Josh/JayJay.

This is indeed possible. It is also possible that jesus' actual parents were called Joseph and Mary, or the Hebrew equivalents :)  The gospels were written about 50 years after Christs death and were written copies of oral history   Thus it is more likely that they closely resemble the real history  of christ with, possibly, a few miracles throw in Whether you accept those miracles as physically possible is a matter of belief, but the genealogy of christ  is a pretty standard  element of his historical existence as a jewish preacher and teacher. from a  middle level of society at the time.  The gospels, acts, Corinthians, Galatians  and Jude,  also mention Christs brothers and sisters including some reference to their later roles within the church and in the family life of Christ 

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Mr Walker
On 17/12/2017 at 3:12 AM, freetoroam said:

Who Jesus? I thought the belief was, it was the sperm donor...aka God.

Biblically, christ was " the word", or the creative element/power of god in heaven, before the holy spirit inseminated Mary to create Jesus as a physical being on earth  Thus it was christ, in the biblical creation story, who created earth etc. 

After his death as a man he returned to heaven.

In revelations he is portrayed as an avenging angel  on a white horse with a sword in hand, coming to do battle with Satan, for the final judgements.  

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freetoroam
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

In revelations he is portrayed as an avenging angel  on a white horse with a sword in hand, coming to do battle with Satan, for the final judgements.  

Sword? So they have swords in heaven? 

Well i suppose it is better than today where the chosen weapon to do battle with satan would likely the the nuclear bomb.

Out of interest, when did god invent the sword? seems all this peace in heaven was not so peaceful after all if jesus had to carry a sword with him...what is he carrying in our modern days:

Jesus-Christ-with-a-Machine-Gun-111401.j

 

Edited by freetoroam
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jps

The animals come from the need to have plenty of children in costume on stage 'acting'.

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Orphalesion
7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

This is indeed possible. It is also possible that jesus' actual parents were called Joseph and Mary, or the Hebrew equivalents :)  The gospels were written about 50 years after Christs death and were written copies of oral history   Thus it is more likely that they closely resemble the real history  of christ with, possibly, a few miracles throw in Whether you accept those miracles as physically possible is a matter of belief, but the genealogy of christ  is a pretty standard  element of his historical existence as a jewish preacher and teacher. from a  middle level of society at the time.  The gospels, acts, Corinthians, Galatians  and Jude,  also mention Christs brothers and sisters including some reference to their later roles within the church and in the family life of Christ 

Yep, it's also true that Yossef and Miriam were simply common names among the Ancient Hebrews and yes, I find the scattered hints at Jesus biological brothers and sisters very interesting. Same with the hints in some texts and apocrypha about the wives and children of the apostles. I never understood why the idea of Jesus having siblings would be difficult to accept in Christian thought. Even if one insist on a virgin birth for Jesus, I don't think Mary/Miriam (if that was her name) would have had an obligation to be celibate for the rest of her life.
And well with the Gospels we do, however, know that there was some falsification/propaganda added to them. With Pilate (the Roman, to who's empire the early Christians depended for continual survival) getting a hero upgrade by doing his best to save Jesus (when the historical record shows that he was very crucifixion-happy, so much that even the Romans thought that he was overdoing it) and the Jewish leadership and people (which both got into an increasingly dangerous position within the Imperium Romanum as the 1st century AD progressed, culminating in the diaspora) being vilified as the ones who wanted to do away with Jesus. There's also some theories that the nativity was highly symbolic rather than an actual account (consider the differences in details between the two nativity traditions in the gospels) as well as other things about Jesus' early life (he's a carpenter to create a link with the common people etc.)

And it was the 1st Century AD, a time when it was still so very easy for a simple story to grow and change from one mouth to the other and that historical accuracy is a very modern concept. We know very little, unbiased information about people who were considered powerful and prominent by the elites and historians of their time, like Cleopatra and Caligula, so I don't see why the accounts of the life of a prophet who only turned out to be that important sometime after his death wouldn't have a lot of embellishment and additions to them. Consider that no contemporary sources mention the sudden darkness and earthquake as Jesus drew his final breath.
I think the portions of the gospels dealing with his adult life might be fairly accurate (as you write with some ymmv on the miracles),but the childhood accounts might be more fictitious.

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Mr Walker
37 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Yep, it's also true that Yossef and Miriam were simply common names among the Ancient Hebrews and yes, I find the scattered hints at Jesus biological brothers and sisters very interesting. Same with the hints in some texts and apocrypha about the wives and children of the apostles. I never understood why the idea of Jesus having siblings would be difficult to accept in Christian thought. Even if one insist on a virgin birth for Jesus, I don't think Mary/Miriam (if that was her name) would have had an obligation to be celibate for the rest of her life.
And well with the Gospels we do, however, know that there was some falsification/propaganda added to them. With Pilate (the Roman, to who's empire the early Christians depended for continual survival) getting a hero upgrade by doing his best to save Jesus (when the historical record shows that he was very crucifixion-happy, so much that even the Romans thought that he was overdoing it) and the Jewish leadership and people (which both got into an increasingly dangerous position within the Imperium Romanum as the 1st century AD progressed, culminating in the diaspora) being vilified as the ones who wanted to do away with Jesus. There's also some theories that the nativity was highly symbolic rather than an actual account (consider the differences in details between the two nativity traditions in the gospels) as well as other things about Jesus' early life (he's a carpenter to create a link with the common people etc.)

And it was the 1st Century AD, a time when it was still so very easy for a simple story to grow and change from one mouth to the other and that historical accuracy is a very modern concept. We know very little, unbiased information about people who were considered powerful and prominent by the elites and historians of their time, like Cleopatra and Caligula, so I don't see why the accounts of the life of a prophet who only turned out to be that important sometime after his death wouldn't have a lot of embellishment and additions to them. Consider that no contemporary sources mention the sudden darkness and earthquake as Jesus drew his final breath.
I think the portions of the gospels dealing with his adult life might be fairly accurate (as you write with some ymmv on the miracles),but the childhood accounts might be more fictitious.

the Catholics evolved an idea that mary was not just a virgin before birth but remained a virgin after birth  Ie she was always the virgin mother. The perfect woman unspoiled by sex, desire  lust etc For the very misogynistic medieval church this allowed a special case for mary who was seen as not possessing the sin of eve or other women and being divine in her own right   This does not fit withe idea of her having other children, and so, many Catholics believe Christs siblings were cousins or came from  another mother  

Christ was a liberal preacher and only one of many killed by the  conservative jewish faction in power at the time They massacred whole groups of opposing jews.  However the y were clever in having christ tried under roman jurisdiction and eliminating a threat to their authority  without actually having to do it themsleves 

Christs stated teachings are almost identical to many teachings by the hillel  school who were contemporary with christ  This most likely means that christ was a student of this school if not one of the Hillels themselves    it also places him as a contemporary of them and of this period of history   This tends to confirm the stories of Christ as a young man, being interested in the theology and teaching of Judaism but also of evolving a very liberal variant of it which  was powerfully opposed by the conservative ruling faction  

The perpetual virginity of Mary is a Marian doctrine taught by the Catholic Church and held by a number of groups in Christianity which asserts that Mary (the mother of Jesus) was "always a virgin, before, during and after the birth of Jesus Christ."[2][3] This doctrine also proclaims that Mary had no marital relations after Jesus' birth nor gave birth to any children other than Jesus.[2] While the Bible mentions brothers of Jesus,[4] Catholic, Orthodox, and some traditional Protestant interpretations offer various explanations that align with the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity; that these siblings were either children of Joseph from a previous marriage, cousins of Jesus, or were closely associated with the Holy Family.

Some early Protestant reformers such as Martin Luther supported the doctrine, and founding figures of Anglicanism such as Hugh Latimer and Thomas Cranmer "followed the tradition that they had inherited by accepting Mary as 'ever virgin'".[14] Reformed teaching, however, largely abandoned it.[15][16] The doctrine of perpetual virginity is currently maintained by some Anglican and Lutheran theologians.[8][17][18][19] In addition, John Wesley, the founder of the Methodism, affirmed the perpetual virginity of Mary.[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_virginity_of_Mary

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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jmccr8
12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Biblically, christ was " the word", or the creative element/power of god in heaven, before the holy spirit inseminated Mary to create Jesus as a physical being on earth  Thus it was christ, in the biblical creation story, who created earth etc. 

After his death as a man he returned to heaven.

In revelations he is portrayed as an avenging angel  on a white horse with a sword in hand, coming to do battle with Satan, for the final judgements.  

Aliens ride horses? Do they have wings like Pegasus? It is a literary device written at a time when it was not know that there is no beathable air in space.

jmccr8

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Orphalesion
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 

Christ was a liberal preacher and only one of many killed by the  conservative jewish faction in power at the time They massacred whole groups of opposing jews.  However the y were clever in having christ tried under roman jurisdiction and eliminating a threat to their authority  without actually having to do it themsleves

That is true, that Jesus pretty much upset anybody powerful at the time; the temple priests and the Roman jurisdiction. I'm not saying the priests were blameless, but that the very pro-Roman tone of the cruxification records, with Pilate washing his hands off the matter and pretty much doing anything but beg the crowd outside (who'd rather let a muderer/rapist go than Jesus) to allow him to spare this one particular preacher.
Considering the things Jesus and people like him preached and the effect it had on a population that was already unhappy with Roman rule, he was just as much a thorn in Pilate's side as in the priests'

i'd wager if Pilate had such an active and desperate interest in Jesus' survival he could have instead sentenced him to banishment in Tauris or some other, similarly remote region.

 

Quote

Christs stated teachings are almost identical to many teachings by the hillel  school who were contemporary with christ  This most likely means that christ was a student of this school if not one of the Hillels themselves    it also places him as a contemporary of them and of this period of history   This tends to confirm the stories of Christ as a young man, being interested in the theology and teaching of Judaism but also of evolving a very liberal variant of it which  was powerfully opposed by the conservative ruling faction  

I'm also not denying the possibility that the historical Jesus could might have been interested, drawn to and studying theology from an early age, I'm just doubting all the very detailed and strange sounding things; that he originally was a carpenter, the visit of the magi and the three symbolic gifts of gold, incense and myrrh, the messacre of the innocents (at least one specifically aimed at killing Jesus) the flight to Egypt etc. etc. etc. 

I also have to admit that when considering Jesus, I am more drawn to an interpretation that casts him along the line of 100% human, born from a man and woman, but, perhaps, somewhat enlightened with possibly intuitive knowledge about something beyond this earthly realm, but only able to interpret this vague, intuitive knowledge within the context of his culture and time.
When discussion this with a friend, I once explained that I think, if Jesus had been born in Athens as  Greek instead, he would have preached about a kinder, more divine version of the Olympians or would have followed and preached a Neo-Platonic strain  or one of the Mysteries.

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Podo

I would imagine that the animals were added later for PR. "Look how cute our baby jesus is! He's friends with animals and everything! He definitely wasn't the overblown and over-hyped child of a woman who had sex out of wedlock and came up with some crazy story to avoid getting killed for adultery!"

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HollyDolly

Grandpa Greenman, yes they can get snow in the desert and it does get cold too. Recall my late father talking about it getting cold at night  in the deseret when he was in North Africa during WW2. I've never heard the story of the Blessed Mother Mary giving birth to Jesus under some palm tree.  And by the way there's a charming legend  connected to the animals. The story goes that the Baby Jesus was laying in the manager. Well a cat  came up and looked at Jesus. The Virgin Mary saw this, and gentlely placed her hand on the cat, and marked its forehead with the letter M. From then on all tabby cats have the mark of an M on their foreheads.She wasn't trying to hurt it,  and in those days people  believed as some  folks do even today, that a cat can suck the breath from a baby if they lay on or near on.

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jmccr8
1 hour ago, HollyDolly said:

The story goes that the Baby Jesus was laying in the manager. Well a cat  came up and looked at Jesus. The Virgin Mary saw this, and gentlely placed her hand on the cat, and marked its forehead with the letter M. From then on all tabby cats have the mark of an M on their foreheads.She wasn't trying to hurt it,  and in those days people  believed as some  folks do even today, that a cat can suck the breath from a baby if they lay on or near on.

Hi HollyDolly,

That sounds like an old wives tale about a cats tail in a fairy tale.:lol:

jmccr8

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Doug1o29

I'm trying to be politically correct this year, so in keeping with the political climate, I removed all immigrants, all foreigners and all children of immigrants from my Nativity scene.  What's left, you ask?  Just some sheep being led by a jackass.

Doug

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