Hamas Arrests and Tortures Salafi Militants

[Sir Smoke aLot]

20 hours ago, joc said:

To my knowledge I have not joked about the Palestinians at all.

Thanks for clarification and i will explain how i got that opinion... Some of the things you've said were nothing more than a joke to me.

On 12/20/2017 at 7:51 PM, joc said:

he picture suggests the person throwing the rock is actually...protesting...which means that, he knows the tank isn't going to shoot him.

To be more clear about the earlier - I've based my assumption over this part of your post. Tank might shoot him but soldier will shoot him 100%. Also, your claim that Palestinians are scared of IDF was funny because reality is much different. 

 

[+joc]

13 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Thanks for clarification and i will explain how i got that opinion... Some of the things you've said were nothing more than a joke to me.

To be more clear about the earlier - I've based my assumption over this part of your post. Tank might shoot him but soldier will shoot him 100%. Also, your claim that Palestinians are scared of IDF was funny because reality is much different. 

 

Look, I know that the Palestinians are in a real struggle.  So are the Israelis...there is a reason the wall is there...there is a reason the tanks are there...there is a reason that the israilies don't take any crap off of anyone over there.  It seems we all but have forgotten the yestertide of days and weeks and months and years in which, every day a Palestinian would blow themselves up in the market place in jerusalem or Televiv or whereever...it was common, it was daily, and the Jews simply had enough and did something about it.

It isn't Israels fault...this only began as a defensive measure back in the 60s when they found themselves surrounded on all sides and decided to strike first....Six days later...they had won.  The Palestinians didn't own the land before and they don't own the land now.  Israel did not take away land from the Palestinians...they took the land from Egypt. So, let the Palestinians go to Egypt and ask for more land since it was basically Egypt that caused the 6 day war to begin with,,,but history...all is forgotten by most in time.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

1 minute ago, joc said:

Look, I know that the Palestinians are in a real struggle.  So are the Israelis...there is a reason the wall is there...there is a reason the tanks are there...there is a reason that the israilies don't take any crap off of anyone over there.  It seems we all but have forgotten the yestertide of days and weeks and months and years in which, every day a Palestinian would blow themselves up in the market place in jerusalem or Televiv or whereever...it was common, it was daily, and the Jews simply had enough and did something about it.

It's a very long subject which needs to be approached from last hundred years or so in order to be objective. 

4 minutes ago, joc said:

It isn't Israels fault...this only began as a defensive measure back in the 60s

It began long before that, 1948 state of Israel was proclaimed and there were many events leading to it, since late 1800s. As for 1967 war, it was seen even by CIA as it is. Surely it wasn't defensive war but land grab operation. 1973 was almost disaster for Israel and there you could make argument for Israel defending itself.

6 minutes ago, joc said:

Israel did not take away land from the Palestinians...they took the land from Egypt.

That is usual Zionists ( not accusing you of being one ) approach, accuse the victim of your own wrongdoings. Can you backup this claim by anything else than some fictional line from Hasbara guidebook?

7 minutes ago, joc said:

it was basically Egypt that caused the 6 day war to begin with

Again, no it wasn't Egypt. IDF launched airplane strikes on Egypt Airforce and destroyed it while it was on the ground. The war was over at that point and Israel moved in offensive operations right away after the raid of Egypt's airfields.

It's well known history and consensus has been made among historians, especially those within Israel.

Anyhow, there is no point in us discussing this conflict as some of your claims are outdated and Israeli officials have confirmed true image of '6 day war'. Also, i take your advice from before hence such conclusion. 

 

[+joc]

33 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

It's a very long subject which needs to be approached from last hundred years or so in order to be objective. 

It began long before that, 1948 state of Israel was proclaimed and there were many events leading to it, since late 1800s. As for 1967 war, it was seen even by CIA as it is. Surely it wasn't defensive war but land grab operation. 1973 was almost disaster for Israel and there you could make argument for Israel defending itself.

That is usual Zionists ( not accusing you of being one ) approach, accuse the victim of your own wrongdoings. Can you backup this claim by anything else than some fictional line from Hasbara guidebook?

Again, no it wasn't Egypt. IDF launched airplane strikes on Egypt Airforce and destroyed it while it was on the ground. The war was over at that point and Israel moved in offensive operations right away after the raid of Egypt's airfields.

It's well known history and consensus has been made among historians, especially those within Israel.

Anyhow, there is no point in us discussing this conflict as some of your claims are outdated and Israeli officials have confirmed true image of '6 day war'. Also, i take your advice from before hence such conclusion. 

 

All I can say is that the idea that Hamas is torturing Salami Militants for the purpose of furthering the Peace Process with Israel is absolutely ridiculous.  It probably has a lot more to do with territorial control.

Edited December 22, 2017 by joc

[+joc]

Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar called on Thursday for a "day of blood" in the West Bank, following the UN General Assembly vote on a resolution slamming US President Donald Trump's decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Following-UN-vote-Hamas-leader-calls-for-Day-of-Blood-in-West-Bank-519722

 

[RoofGardener]

And yet... curiously.. so far... the reactions on the ground have been very muted. 

The UN may recognise the PLO (which includes HAMAS... in theory) as being the sole representative of "the Palestinian people"

I'm beginning to wonder whether the "Palestinian People" still entirely agree with that ? 

Interesting days. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by RoofGardener

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

It began long before that, 1948 state of Israel was proclaimed and there were many events leading to it, since late 1800s. As for 1967 war, it was seen even by CIA as it is.

You're citing the CIA (of the 1960's) as a credible source ? How well did that work out in Vietnam ? They're not stupid - far from it - but they have a record of managers manipulating "intel" to give an answer that the politicians want. 

Egypt massed forces on the border with Israel. It forced the UN peacekeepers in the Sinai to withdraw. It blocked the straights of Tiran. All of these are provocative, and the straights of Tiran blockade was an outright act of war, in INTERNATIONAL LAW. (I know how much you LOVE international law). 

Sorry SirSmoke aLot... but that is a weak response. 

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by RoofGardener

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 12/22/2017 at 6:51 PM, joc said:

All I can say is that the idea that Hamas is torturing Salami Militants for the purpose of furthering the Peace Process with Israel is absolutely ridiculous.  It probably has a lot more to do with territorial control.

Yeah, i agree. Such formulation surely sounds ridiculous and article seems to have skilfully implying certain conclusions.

The message to the readers is, basically : 'torture and peace' or 'torture for peace'. Such statement is against logic and also contrary to common sense so it is received accordingly. I might be wrong but that's how i see it. And i explain why i do in the text below, with little personal evaluation of Haaretz  Long read and i wrote this after i had little sleep because of the work on new project - so it might also be hard read - just to warn you.

Reality there is that Hamas has the upper hand in Gaza - actually, they have the upper hand in every scenario within Gaza ( well, every other than that which includes Israel ). Other groups within Gaza are mostly allied to Hamas and answer to it ( that logic is also used to explain Israeli official policy which is to blame Hamas and consider Hamas responsible for everything which happens in Gaza ) but it is hard to fully control everyone there. Even harder to fully control every individual from within local militant groups. Those groups usually have poor structure of command, inside fighting etc. That crazy environment in the region takes it's toll too and the blockade of Gaza doesn't help either. It only adds up to the stress and now we've got Trump's decision on the top of everything mentioned here...

But all that aside, Palestinian reconciliation is what's important all along by my opinion. Most recently it was stopped by events leading to the operation ''Protective Edge'' in 2014 and new conflict would prevent it again. Hamas if determined to fully implement that deal ( Rafah border crossing with Gaza was turned to PA under this reconciliation already in October and many more steps have been done too, so far ) and knows this reality, that war would prevent it.

Trump's decision came in time of implementation of deals between Hamas and Fatah and now Palestinians and especially Hamas, they have no choice other than to protest and show anger because the attack on East Jerusalem is an attack to their dignity. Israel could get many excuses to attack if things escalate. 

That's what's behind Hamas recent decisions. 'Torture' from this article should be replaced by little background story and about what Hamas is actually doing. It's legit strive to remove fanatic and unreliable parts of resistance groups and do their best to not provoke IDF into action or even larger operations which could be fatal both for people and for reconciliation. 

Anyhow, the continuation of 'anti-Hamas' rhetoric is evident. Even tho that Haaretz generally has decent amount of information about the subject of their articles ( as seen in this article too ) the problem is that those excluded parts deeply hurt image of reality. For example 2014 is mentioned but there is no proper link made by the author, link between that information and the article it self and what implications those events had on major political moves from that time.

A little bit funny part from the article, hmm, Saudi Salafists... :

''

Several dozen rockets have been fired into Israeli territory in reaction to the announcement of the embassy move, but Hamas blames hardline Salafists for the launches.''

 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 12/22/2017 at 8:11 PM, RoofGardener said:

You're citing the CIA (of the 1960's) as a credible source ? How well did that work out in Vietnam ? They're not stupid - far from it - but they have a record of managers manipulating "intel" to give an answer that the politicians want. 

I find some reports from CIA as credible, yes. There are examples of that from different areas which CIA covered, not mainly from the ME and they were good reads to me and were very useful study about some events. Reports which include relevant air photos from the field at the time period in question ( pictures of military installations, troop movement etc ) were interesting to me in this case.

But to be precise - I've said : 

On 12/22/2017 at 8:11 PM, RoofGardener said:

As for 1967 war, it was seen even by CIA as it is.

I was clearly implying something else here. It supposed to serve as nice little hint to correctness of my claim about 1967 War. There were a lot of official statements coming from American administration, especially about the aftermath of one diplomatic visit from Israel at the time almost just before that war. What happened at the meeting is that there was big misunderstanding of some sort which Israeli delegate has seen as 'green light' from USA for Israel to attack.

On 12/22/2017 at 8:11 PM, RoofGardener said:

Egypt massed forces on the border with Israel. It forced the UN peacekeepers in the Sinai to withdraw. It blocked the straights of Tiran. All of these are provocative, and the straights of Tiran blockade was an outright act of war, in INTERNATIONAL LAW. (I know how much you LOVE international law).

Sorry SirSmoke aLot... but that is a weak response. 

All of those points about Egypt can easily be refuted also by the placement of the UN forces elsewhere in 'hot area'. Nasser did 'close' the Strait but truth is that such move could not endanger Israel for months, for many reasons and one of those reasons is good organization within Israel... What actually happened is that Nasser has played big political move to show how he resents the powers and has the will and the courage... That's breaking international laws? Because, in reality he let ships pass through, quietly, after day or two... So basically, you can't use that as excuse for Israel attack on Egypt. 

[RoofGardener]

"All of these points about Egypt can be easily ... refuted". 

No, I don't think so. They can be challenged , as there WAS a lot of confusion and complex interactions going on within both Egypt, Syria and Israel. (with the Soviet Union stirring things up by issuing false "intelligence" reports... who says that Fake News is a recent thing ?  ). But they can't be refuted, because it comes down to the psychology of individuals. Nasser... who wanted war, but didn't want to attack first. The Egyptian generals, who wanted both (hence Operation Dawn, which came within hours of being launched). Various factions within the Knesset and the Israeli government, ditto Syria, and the KGB rampaging around lighting bushfires. Ask 10 historians about it, and you'll probably get 11 different opinions  

Consider that the last time Egypt blockaded the Straights of Tiran (1956 ? ), Israel attacked, forcing the straits to be re-opened (among other things). So what made the Egyptians think that the same thing wouldn't happen when they blocked them again in 1967 ? .I mean.. why did they do it ? What outcome did they expect ? Something like 90% of Israels oil came through those waters. Blockade a countries fuel supplies, and the outcome is usually war. Ask the residents of Pearl Harbour ! (a somewhat worrying fact in the light of the recent fuel sanctions against North Korea). 

As for HAMAS vs the Salafi/ISIS groups in Gaza.. well..at the risk of being uncharitable, I'm reminded of the saying... "it's like watching a wasp land on a thistle. You know ONE of them is going to get stung, and you don't really care which one"  

 

[Setton]

On 22/12/2017 at 4:59 PM, joc said:

The Palestinians didn't own the land before and they don't own the land now.

So out of interest, how do you feel about Irish republicans or the American revolution?

[+joc]

4 minutes ago, Setton said:

So out of interest, how do you feel about Irish republicans or the American revolution?

You are trying to make a comparison that isn't really apples to apples.

It isn't the same thing at all...I ;know you think it is but it really isn't.  British Empire-ism has nothing to do with the current conflict.

[Setton]

3 hours ago, joc said:

You are trying to make a comparison that isn't really apples to apples.

It isn't the same thing at all...I ;know you think it is but it really isn't.  British Empire-ism has nothing to do with the current conflict.

I was just asking you a question. Care to answer it? 

[+joc]

4 hours ago, Setton said:

I was just asking you a question. Care to answer it? 

I answered the question.  You are talking apples and oranges.

[Setton]

33 minutes ago, joc said:

I answered the question.  You are talking apples and oranges.

Didn't make any comparison. Just asked you a question. Says a lot that you're too defensive to answer though. 

[+joc]

1 hour ago, Setton said:

Didn't make any comparison. Just asked you a question. Says a lot that you're too defensive to answer though. 

No, it doesn't say that at all.  You didn't just ask me a question either.  The actual truth is ....you were bating me. Just asking a question is like , Hey, let me ask you a question.  How long have you been playing guitar?

You are trying to make a comparison between the Brits and the Irish while at the same time, making the same comparison to the Brits and America...that dog don't hunt Setton...not in my backyard anyway.