Medical 'Miracles'

[pallidin]

Curious about your general, or specific, opinions on the subject.

For example, I have heard of several cases (sorry, no reference at this time) where some hospitalized patients in, say,  the U.S. have experienced medically unexplainable recovery from certain disease conditions such as cancer (or other afflctions)

Of course, "remission" is understood to be a result of heightened immune system activity and/or the result of treatment.

However, "spontaneous remission" is a rare but documented event of disease cessation which defies all current medical explanation and remains a complete mystery.

Curious as to your thoughts...

Note: I do realize that "medically unexplainable" does not automatically equate to "miraculous"

Edited December 26, 2017 by pallidin

[thatgrimlife]

Honestly? The US is a horrible example to use for this sort of question. It's not uncommon for doctors to overlook serious illnesses here. Obesity is seen as a cause, not a symptom too. This leads to misdiagnoses, failure to recognize illnesses, and several other things. In many cases, you could be speaking of medical professionals that have deemed a case not serious enough to treat. Or it has been treated so aggressively that it appears spontaneous (and likely nearly killed the patient) - yet another thing I've experienced in regards to my auto-immune disease. In fact, some doctors will say an illness is gone when they actually mean it is in remission.

I'd like to also point out that when I was last hospitalized, I was released and considered "better" despite still showing an incredible amount of symptoms. The hospitals only cared that I did not need a blood transfusion and sent me on our way. There are also many healthcare professionals that, should their patient stop coming to their appointments (as I personally experienced with a doctor I had issues with), mark the case as "better."

Most "miracles" can likely be dismissed as having been falsely identified in the first place. If cancer or other serious illnesses randomly vanish, the doctor probably made a wrong diagnosis and the patient should be concerned.

[pallidin]

Thank you for your input!

[jmccr8]

Well I had a finger sewn back on and later when I went for a checkup at his office I saw some of his other patients, poor folks some looked quite mangled or disformed. When he saw me he looked somewhat surprised at how well it had healed and asked if he had taken a picture of it. I'm guessing that this was not a normal experience in his practice. Does that count?

jmccr8

[Aquila King]

The best case I've ever found was that of a woman in China who was supposedly healed of a bladder tumor through focused prayer/chanting.

The MRI screen on the left is a still photo of the tumor, while the screen on the right is in real-time:

 

Now having said that, I don't personally think that most people should abandon conventional medicine and use alternative methods exclusively. And ESPECIALLY avoid religious (typically Christian) faith healing whack jobs. They're out for money, so don't buy into it.

Though I can't say that complimentary alternative healing methods are totally wrong. They're simply as of yet still mysterious, and should therefore be approached with extreme caution. Those are my thoughts on it anyway...

[pallidin]

Interestingly, some cases of the well known and widely documented cases of the "placebo-effect" similarly defy ready explanation.

Now, pain relief placebo effects are mostly readily explainable by virtue of the human brain releasing the very powerful endorphin chemicals.

However, some placebo effects are unexplainable in double-blind studies, such as, say, a complex disease state improving just because the patient thinks the sugar pill is actual medicine, with the doctors unable to determine a reasonable explanation (as opposed to the pain killer placebo which is well explained)

 

[Aquila King]

3 minutes ago, pallidin said:

Interestingly, some cases of the well known and widely documented cases of the "placebo-effect" similarly defy ready explanation.

Now, pain relief placebo effects are mostly readily explainable by virtue of the human brain releasing the very powerful endorphin chemicals.

However, some placebo effects are unexplainable in double-blind studies, such as, say, a complex disease state improving just because the patient thinks the sugar pill is actual medicine, with the doctors unable to determine a reasonable explanation (as opposed to the pain killer placebo which is well explained)

The very first list of scientific studies in the link below are of healing at a distance.

http://www.deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm

There is plenty of evidence that non-traditional healing methods do occur, that is in what one might call in a 'spiritual' sense. And I do think it is linked to the placebo effect. If consciousness affects the body, and it exists (at least somewhat) outside the body, then it isn't a stretch to claim that it can affect the bodies of others as well. However as to what extent I don't know.

[pallidin]

Yes, this is indeed a fascinating and productive area of medical research.

The absolute fact that unexplainable medical recovery does exist, and continues to exist, can make a medical professional wonder:

1) That we just don't know, at this time, enough about the human body to explain spontaneous recovery -or-

2) That there might be something truly bizarre inherent with the human body in concert with some non-traditional treatment ideologies.

Edited December 26, 2017 by pallidin

[papageorge1]

I feel miraculous healings not explainable by current science do indeed occur. And I think to explain them, science will in the future need to recognize energies and healing entities above the physical realm.

That's  my thoughts.

[pallidin]

As a reasonable tangent to this topic, acupuncture is approved for use by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) for the post-operative relief of nausea and pain, if requested by the patient and approved by the attending physician(s)

This is from the results of bonafide, Federally funded clinical trials of acupuncture efficacy by the NIH specifically regarding pain and nausea.

The NIH is currently undergoing a variety of other clinical studies to ascertain acupuncture's potential medical effectivess, if any, in a large number of other disease states apart from pain and nausea (which are already approved)

For more information you can visit the NIH website, or their sister site MedLine Plus for updates on acupuncture and the list of clinical trials available.

Note: According to NIH, the mechanism behind acupuncture's effectiveness are not well understood, and, it is found that, for currently unknown reasons, some people do not respond to acupuncture (in the NIH clinical trials already performed)

Edited December 26, 2017 by pallidin

[Nostrodumbass]

These 'miracles' are normally 'internal' and subject to the body's own processes, which I could believe we do not know everything about.

What about something that has become 'external' to the body? A real miracle would be for instance, a group praying for a war veteran with an amputated leg for example. Then suddenly his/her leg is restored and normal. That's a miracle! Anything else could be explained away (misdiagnosis, placebo, natural immunity, hoax etc.).

Edited December 26, 2017 by Nostrodumbass

[Sir Smoke aLot]

I would not be surprised if advances in research of matter and the energy on the smallest of scales will prove many things to be correct but also many of them to be false.

It has been a long time since breakthroughs were made and my mind is open for so many weird possibilities and i would certainly not exclude the possibility of 'medical miracles' actually happening.

[Crazy Horse]

23 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I would not be surprised if advances in research of matter and the energy on the smallest of scales will prove many things to be correct but also many of them to be false.

It has been a long time since breakthroughs were made and my mind is open for so many weird possibilities and i would certainly not exclude the possibility of 'medical miracles' actually happening.

Mind over matter, spirit over mind.

As above so below, as below so above.

Its all the same laws and principles that are creating and maintaining life and every aspect of the material, mental and spiritual universe.

Just because mainstream science hasn't recognised them, means very little.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Crazy Horse

[Sir Smoke aLot]

14 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Just because mainstream science hasn't recognised them, means very little.

It will, maybe not as we expect it to be but, as you said, everything is fundamentally the same it's interactions which make things crowded and different.

[Crazy Horse]

5 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

It will, maybe not as we expect it to be but, as you said, everything is fundamentally the same it's interactions which make things crowded and different.

I would say that it is our interactions of free will that confuse everything.

Our ability and right to go against the grain. We might think that holding onto money will make us rich, without even knowing what wealth actually is. We might think that putting up barriers against intimate relationships may keep us from pain. And we might even believe that we can go against natures law without suffering any consequences!!

To know thyself is to know Everything!

 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

16 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I would say that it is our interactions of free will that confuse everything.

Our ability and right to go against the grain. We might think that holding onto money will make us rich, without even knowing what wealth actually is. We might think that putting up barriers against intimate relationships may keep us from pain. And we might even believe that we can go against natures law without suffering any consequences!!

It's very interesting view and it does hold weight, till some point in searching for knowledge.

17 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

To know thyself is to know Everything!

It can't be overlooked at all that the mistakes that we as humans were making, are making and will make is the belief that humankind is somehow central or essential piece of existence at larger scales. Not sure if it's sheer arrogance, which can't be neglected or if it really could be the key to better understanding. Free will is indeed what makes us move forward but also is what makes us go back and devolve so to say. Agreed.

[Crazy Horse]

41 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

It's very interesting view and it does hold weight, till some point in searching for knowledge.

It can't be overlooked at all that the mistakes that we as humans were making, are making and will make is the belief that humankind is somehow central or essential piece of existence at larger scales. Not sure if it's sheer arrogance, which can't be neglected or if it really could be the key to better understanding. Free will is indeed what makes us move forward but also is what makes us go back and devolve so to say. Agreed.

Its not so much arrogance to think we are central or essential piece of existence, but to think that we are somehow outside, or separate from Everything is the one missing idea holding us back. we are central but then so is every other thing in existence. The difference with humanity is our soul, spirit, mind and body.

You and I and God and the whole of creation are essentially one. Different vibrations and frequencies emanating from the same Source. 

I would say that ultimately speaking, all our pain and suffering and fear arise from a sense of separateness. 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

27 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Its not so much arrogance to think we are central or essential piece of existence, but to think that we are somehow outside, or separate from Everything is the one missing idea holding us back. we are central but then so is every other thing in existence. The difference with humanity is our soul, spirit, mind and body.

While i do believe in concept of God i never allow my self to base anything over that because it always includes some sort of bias or something like that. Not saying that you are biased, it's simply my defensive mechanism in the strive to remain objective ( as much as possible ) so it was remark addressed to my beliefs.

You've said that it's not so much arrogant to think of our centrality - but such beliefs, by my opinion, have costed us through out our history as humankind and continue to cost us even today.

There are numerous examples of that which was done either for individual gain by disregarding the future or for the assumed greater good. Maybe not so relevant but those events from the past can't be neglected.

Romans, for example, by prosecuting Christians for long time were the ones who strengthened early Christians and, as a result, Emperor Constantine did, at the time, unimaginable thing which has lead to total removal of paganism in relatively short time after those events. Surely, that wasn't Romans intention to destroy the Empire but by neglecting the fact that Romans are not invincible and by having belief that they could get out with anything, that has lead to their demise - among other things. By my definition of it, it's arrogance which has destroyed them but their sins have cemented their inevitable fall.

Claim that belief of us as being separate is holding us back doesn't really hold weight. If such belief was present i would agree but i do not think that it's the case because, by taking into account the Universe as a whole it's obvious that we are part of it and, for more romantic view - we are result of the Universe expressing itself ( even tho it does sound a bit arrogant too ). 

27 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I would say that ultimately speaking, all our pain and suffering and fear arise from a sense of separateness. 

This surely could be supported but if we consider everything which has happen so far and is happening to the present it's hard to assume that we would ever became more close with out surroundings. That is why i focus strictly on advances in science.

For example, what we do to chickens ( who have, for generations, lived inside factories and do not know that the Sun even exists ) is one aspect of it, we are far from nature and as long as profits continue to run our lives we will be held back from better understanding of existence.

But only by looking on the subject of 'medical miracles' and focusing on that in a simple way i conclude that we only need physical and solid proof that they exist but that doesn't mean that such miracles do not exist already or that they did not happen before.

Particle physics and advances in understanding of energy will give us the answer but i do not undermine the essence of your claim which is very positive.

[edit] oh, long post again I am making a habit  to write long replies 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Sir Smoke aLot

[GlitterRose]

10 hours ago, Aquila King said:

The best case I've ever found was that of a woman in China who was supposedly healed of a bladder tumor through focused prayer/chanting.

The MRI screen on the left is a still photo of the tumor, while the screen on the right is in real-time:

 

Now having said that, I don't personally think that most people should abandon conventional medicine and use alternative methods exclusively. And ESPECIALLY avoid religious (typically Christian) faith healing whack jobs. They're out for money, so don't buy into it.

Though I can't say that complimentary alternative healing methods are totally wrong. They're simply as of yet still mysterious, and should therefore be approached with extreme caution. Those are my thoughts on it anyway...

What way does anyone even have to verify who the patient is and if they are actually still alive?

It's probably just a form of Chinese propaganda...look at us...we can cure cancer.

[pallidin]

To emphasize, both "remission" and "spontaneous remission" are well known medical states of disease reduction or complete cessation.

Remission is largely understood.

Spontaneous remission denotes a reduction or even total cessation of a disease state but is, generally, without any classical medical explanation... and is also particularly noted for its "suddeness" or extremely short-term expression in a patient.

[pallidin]

Spontaneous remission can also express itself in the most extreme form... that of unexplainable, sudden, total absence of a disease state when there was clearly one there before.

Rare cases have shown incidents of this, say, when a large tumor is imaged at the hospital, the patient remains at the hospital, and for entirely unknown reasons the next day the tumor itself no longer exists by evidence of MRI or other pathology.

Unusual in that the human body simply cannot degrade and dispose of the tumor in such an extremely short time (weeks or much longer are classically required for large or problematic tumors)

Thus, in very rare cases, the spontaneous remission is so complete as to suddenly and completely remove any trace of the disease state that clearly was there before.

Its as if the disease state never existed.

This very infrequent form of extreme total spontaneous remission is the most bizzare, and has absolutely no explanation.

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by pallidin

[Aquila King]

1 hour ago, ChaosRose said:

What way does anyone even have to verify who the patient is and if they are actually still alive?

It's probably just a form of Chinese propaganda...look at us...we can cure cancer.

That's one of the reasons why I almost always take all video evidence of such things at face value. Whether it be ghosts, aliens, or whatever.

I find it worth consideration, just not rock solid evidence in and of itself. Just consider it the icing on the cake.