+and-then Posted January 3, 2018 #76 Share Posted January 3, 2018 8 hours ago, pallidin said: Drug lords, for example, would love society without any police. And thugs could run rampant, stealing and raping along the way. In some neighborhoods, maybe... Where I live, they'd have to develop some skill to stay alive while trying to run roughshod over folks. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromdor Posted January 3, 2018 #77 Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, joc said: What exactly are you saying Gromdor? That the cop murdered an innocent man. Or that the perp who called 911 murdered him ...using the Police as his weapon? The guy murdered him using the police as a weapon. He utilized the police to put the victim into a situation that has a higher than normal chance of being killed and in this instance it happened. He also utilized the polices pattern of covering their own. They don't make mistakes, they don't have accidents (because that would be negligence), they just have justified uses of force. That shield he hides behind. You can't be a murderer if the police say it was self-defense. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted January 3, 2018 #78 Share Posted January 3, 2018 12 minutes ago, Gromdor said: The guy murdered him using the police as a weapon. He utilized the police to put the victim into a situation that has a higher than normal chance of being killed and in this instance it happened. He also utilized the polices pattern of covering their own. They don't make mistakes, they don't have accidents (because that would be negligence), they just have justified uses of force. That shield he hides behind. You can't be a murderer if the police say it was self-defense. I agree...The guy murdered him using the police as a weapon. But you don't think he will be tried for murder? What about the guy who hires a hit man to kill his wife? Someone else killed her...but her husband caused her death. Murder by hit man...what is the difference here? His actions caused an innocent man to die. How will he not go down for that? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromdor Posted January 3, 2018 #79 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Just now, joc said: I agree...The guy murdered him using the police as a weapon. But you don't think he will be tried for murder? What about the guy who hires a hit man to kill his wife? Someone else killed her...but her husband caused her death. Murder by hit man...what is the difference here? His actions caused an innocent man to die. How will he not go down for that? If the hit man also planned the woman's murder and was guilty of doing it then yes. If the hit man was walking down the street thinking about it and a strange woman came flying out of no-where trying to kill him, he kills her in self-defense and the woman turns out to be the target- is he guilty of murder or is he just doing self-defense? Is the guy that was going to hire him guilty of murder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt Storm Posted January 3, 2018 Author #80 Share Posted January 3, 2018 There is culpability on both parts, yes the cop was doing his job, the prank caller knew a SWAT team would be dispatched, he had done this before. The cop killed the victim yes but the caller set him up to do it. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted January 3, 2018 #81 Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Gromdor said: If the hit man also planned the woman's murder and was guilty of doing it then yes. If the hit man was walking down the street thinking about it and a strange woman came flying out of no-where trying to kill him, he kills her in self-defense and the woman turns out to be the target- is he guilty of murder or is he just doing self-defense? Is the guy that was going to hire him guilty of murder? The policeman isn't responsible because it was self defense. But the perp who called 911, by calling 911, caused the man's death. He is responsible. Even if they can't try him in court...which they will for something, because he did break laws...there will be a civil suit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted January 3, 2018 #82 Share Posted January 3, 2018 4 hours ago, joc said: Cops are trained how to deal with all kinds of circumstances...and when someone armed is being confronted...sometimes the cops have to make split second decisions...yes...the cop was doing his job...going into a hostile environment to protect and serve his community! What if the call was legit and instead of not shooting the guy...they told him again...put your hands up...but in a split second he pulls a weapon from inside his pants and kills one of them? Your reasoning would be considered idiotic from a law enforcement point of view. it was not legit, the guy was not armed, he was not a threat. but who cares lets kill him anyway just in case, it is not like we'l ever go to prison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted January 3, 2018 #83 Share Posted January 3, 2018 16 minutes ago, aztek said: it was not legit, the guy was not armed, he was not a threat. but who cares lets kill him anyway just in case, it is not like we'l ever go to prison Man, how convoluted can one's thought process get? Does it make any difference to you that the cop did not know he was unarmed and that he thought he was the guy who called 911? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted January 3, 2018 #84 Share Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, joc said: Man, how convoluted can one's thought process get? Does it make any difference to you that the cop did not know he was unarmed and that he thought he was the guy who called 911? absolutely none, the guy was not armed, was not a threat, i'm sick of this excuse, we have a difficult job, i was afraid for my life, i thought he had a gun, .... blah blah,,, innocent guy is dead, it was not necessary, absolutely was not, that is all i care about. Edited January 3, 2018 by aztek 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faustus Posted January 3, 2018 #85 Share Posted January 3, 2018 15 hours ago, and then said: I'm wondering why they even knocked. If they were primed for such a situation, wouldn't it make more sense to just break in the door and rush the room? Yes, the prank caller needs to be charged to the limits of the current law but I still think that there has to be a better way to breach a room in such a situation than this. No one should have their life snuffed out because of a mistake by a cop. And no cop should be placed in a situation where his/her first instinct is to shoot at movement. Hell, I don't even do THAT when I'm hunting deer. This^^^ It seems an odd protocol based on the nature of the call to 911, that police would just walk up and knock on the door. I confess complete ignorance to what their typical procedure is for those situations, so they might have applied other strategies prior w/o my knowledge. I think the key factor here that seems to be elemental in all of these bad shoots. That little fraction of time, where actions occur that cause a perception of threat. The threshold for perceiving a suspects actions as going from questionable to ----- life threatening, have in my opinion, changed over time. Now what has caused that? The only thing I can guess, is a lot of dead cops trying to perform their duty. Shooting a cop used to be something avoided at all costs. It meant the chair. Hatred for cops has grown as well over the past 10-15 years more than I've ever seen in my lifetime. Some of that hatred is on bad cops exposed by an ever growing digital society that shines light on their misdeeds. I.E. Rodney King. Some of that hatred is just ugly, awful people that hate any type of authority or anyone that opposes them doing whatever they wish to do.(criminal mentality) Either way, I think we are in the forest talking about trees. Our society is just crumbling, civility, common sense, respect for one another-----and some innate sense, many have, that overall we are in a downward cycle on the spiral of existence in this place and time. What a world of hatred and animosity we live in. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted January 3, 2018 #86 Share Posted January 3, 2018 6 hours ago, joc said: You have absolutely no clue what goes on in law enforcement do you? Why on earth would you ask me that? I said they should be sharing a cell, I'm not naïve enough to think they actually will. Or are you saying that cops don't kill people based on feelings? That would be a losing argument as the key component of every cops defense when someone is shot is "I feared for my life". Fear, like any other feeling is subjective. So we are allowing government officials to kill people based on subjective criteria - that IMO is pretty un-American Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted January 3, 2018 #87 Share Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Faustus said: What a world of hatred and animosity we live in. hate does not appear for no reason, out of nowhere, you are correct with cameras everywhere and internet, last 10-15 years has shown us what has always been happening but we never seen much of it, hate for police is direct result of their actions. it is not criminals, noting new there, they know what they get into to and they know to expect cops be on their tail, it is law abiding citizens who see this happen, cops killing people by mistake, because they were afraid, and just shot with no thinking, no regards, knowing they will get off no matter what, and realize that it can happen to them , to their kids, for no reason, because cops are trained to be afraid for their lives every damn second, and see everyone as a threat. and no matter what same old excuse, and system gets them off every time,, yea expect hate to only grow, it's only a symptom, Edited January 3, 2018 by aztek 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted January 3, 2018 #88 Share Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, pallidin said: Drug lords, for example, would love society without any police. And thugs could run rampant, stealing and raping along the way. they do it now and police does not seem to stop them much, do you really think crimes do not happen more often because police prevents them? Edited January 3, 2018 by aztek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaric Posted January 3, 2018 #89 Share Posted January 3, 2018 6 hours ago, and then said: In some neighborhoods, maybe... Where I live, they'd have to develop some skill to stay alive while trying to run roughshod over folks. Yep. They’d have to stop holding their guns sideways and learn to shoot straight if they were going to tangle with my folks, that’s for sure... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted January 4, 2018 #90 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) 56 minutes ago, aztek said: hate does not appear for no reason, out of nowhere, you are correct with cameras everywhere and internet, last 10-15 years has shown us what has always been happening but we never seen much of it, hate for police is direct result of their actions. it is not criminals, noting new there, they know what they get into to and they know to expect cops be on their tail, it is law abiding citizens who see this happen, cops killing people by mistake, because they were afraid, and just shot with no thinking, no regards, knowing they will get off no matter what, and realize that it can happen to them , to their kids, for no reason, because cops are trained to be afraid for their lives every damn second, and see everyone as a threat. and no matter what same old excuse, and system gets them off every time,, yea expect hate to only grow, it's only a symptom, If it were still considered a good thing for a man to be fearless and macho do you think cops would be afraid all the time or has the pussification of men created this jumpy cop that we now have? Maybe the key to making better police is for society to consider manhood a virtue rather than the bane of society it is now held as. Edited January 4, 2018 by OverSword 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faustus Posted January 4, 2018 #91 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, OverSword said: If it were still considered a good thing for a man to to be fearless and macho do you think cops would be afraid all the time or has the pussification of men created this jumpy cop that we now have? That could be a part of it. I think the lawless, evil, and thugs keep procreating as well, and what do you think they teach their offspring.....All cops are killers----result----- more cops shot and more alleged perps shot. Even one innocent life lost is too many, but cops have a hell of hard job these days. I've seen the disrespect going both ways. Trigger happy, or fearful cops should be on desk duty. I literally had a cop decide he didn't like my attitude and threw me in jail for 4 days on a ridiculous charge the judge threw out at the first hearing. He still cost me 4 days of misery, and smirked all the way into booking, knowing he just completely made some crap up. Aztek is right we have a system wide problem with those in authority in this country. Lawyers are in bed with Judges, Judges in bed with politicians, politicians in bed with special interests, it goes on and on. THat being said, a lot of thugs, and trash showing cops zero respect, put cops on alert for those that might look like them, and cause cops to avoid getting involved in some neighborhoods for fear or reprisal or violence. When cops come rolling in on a drug beef and they are surrounded by people shouting, screaming they hate cops and want to kill them, at that moment I really don't blame them for developing some level of bias, should they return to that location. Thanks to tech we can now observe police and their tactics to keep some means of oversight, but some of these people screaming "You on Live Bit**!" "I got you on Facebook Llive MF as they encircle cops filming, just generally trying to be agitants ---they aren't helping the situation--I mean People harassing and just generally being disrespectful and belligerent. They aren't contributing to a solution either. Edited January 4, 2018 by Faustus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted January 4, 2018 #92 Share Posted January 4, 2018 6 hours ago, aztek said: absolutely none, the guy was not armed, was not a threat, i'm sick of this excuse, we have a difficult job, i was afraid for my life, i thought he had a gun, .... blah blah,,, innocent guy is dead, it was not necessary, absolutely was not, that is all i care about. Then blame the guy who called 911! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted January 4, 2018 #93 Share Posted January 4, 2018 4 hours ago, Farmer77 said: Why on earth would you ask me that? I said they should be sharing a cell, I'm not naïve enough to think they actually will. Or are you saying that cops don't kill people based on feelings? That would be a losing argument as the key component of every cops defense when someone is shot is "I feared for my life". Fear, like any other feeling is subjective. So we are allowing government officials to kill people based on subjective criteria - that IMO is pretty un-American He didn't kill him based on his 'feelings' Farmer! He shot him based on a fraudulent 911 call in which everything he believed the situation he found himself to be in was a blatant lie! And you want to blame the cop. Haters gonna hate! What else is there to say? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted January 4, 2018 #94 Share Posted January 4, 2018 1 hour ago, joc said: He didn't kill him based on his 'feelings' Farmer! He shot him based on a fraudulent 911 call in which everything he believed the situation he found himself to be in was a blatant lie! And you want to blame the cop. Haters gonna hate! What else is there to say? Oh I don't blame the individual cop, that's what he was trained to do. I do blame the system that trained him to do so though. And you can try and spin it however you want but he shot that man because he was scared. He will also not be prosecuted because our society has decided its OK for cops to kill if they are scared. Fear is a feeling. Its not hate to identify a problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted January 4, 2018 #95 Share Posted January 4, 2018 4 hours ago, Farmer77 said: Oh I don't blame the individual cop, that's what he was trained to do. I do blame the system that trained him to do so though. And you can try and spin it however you want but he shot that man because he was scared. He will also not be prosecuted because our society has decided its OK for cops to kill if they are scared. Fear is a feeling. Its not hate to identify a problem. I'm not spinning anything. But I am glad you are not blaming the cop. Fear is instinct. So you are blaming our society. Okay. Our society hasn't decided anything. Reality dictates societal evolution. The reality is that police are targeted by criminals every day! The reality is that our society, if it has decided anything, has decided that murderers, rapists, child rapists, all should be given 'prison' time instead of being executed. The end result of that is an over-abundance of criminals on our streets...a revolving door in our prisons, which results in a population of criminals who can and willfully do target police. The reality is that the Police don't know who they are pulling over when they stop someone for a traffic violation. And in this instance, you tell me Farmer...you are a police officer...you get the 911 call from the dispatcher. You are walking up and knocking on that door. Are you attempting to tell me that you would not have any element of fear? Have you ever been drawn down on? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted January 4, 2018 #96 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) 43 minutes ago, joc said: I'm not spinning anything. But I am glad you are not blaming the cop. Fear is instinct. So you are blaming our society. No I'm blaming Rise of The Warrior Cop . The warrior cop mentality has resulted in an ingrained us vs them mentality where EVERYONE is a mortal threat and the only thing that matters is the officer gets home alive. 43 minutes ago, joc said: The reality is that police are targeted by criminals every day! The reality is that our society, if it has decided anything, has decided that murderers, rapists, child rapists, all should be given 'prison' time instead of being executed. The end result of that is an over-abundance of criminals on our streets...a revolving door in our prisons, which results in a population of criminals who can and willfully do target police. Not really. The reality is fear mongering tactics have been used to convince you that everyone is out to get you and you need big brother to be your protector. (maybe not you specifically but that's the general tactic) America has 5% of the worlds population, yet we house 25% of the world's prison population. Do you really think that Americans are that bad? That we're inherently evil? Personally I don't, I believe that there is a massive industry built upon arresting and jailing people and that industry is aided by great political minds which they pay handsomely to convince the average American that their industry built on the suffering of others is necessary as is, for your safety. 43 minutes ago, joc said: The reality is that the Police don't know who they are pulling over when they stop someone for a traffic violation. That reality in no way means that their lives are worth more than an average citizen. 43 minutes ago, joc said: The reality is that the Police don't know who they are pulling over when they stop someone for a traffic violation. And in this instance, you tell me Farmer...you are a police officer...you get the 911 call from the dispatcher. You are walking up and knocking on that door. Are you attempting to tell me that you would not have any element of fear? Have you ever been drawn down on? I have been drawn on and fired on on multiple occasions. It sucks and its terrifying. When I decided to go into law enforcement I actually chose corrections over the street because I prefer my violence more personal. Tell me though Joc was the officer that shot the man drawn on? No he wasn't. See we've allowed the police/prison industrial complex to position themselves so they don't have to ACTUALLY face any threat at all. All they have to do is be afraid that there might be a threat. Edited January 4, 2018 by Farmer77 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted January 4, 2018 #97 Share Posted January 4, 2018 8 hours ago, joc said: Then blame the guy who called 911! i am, just not as much as the cop who pulled the trigger, not nearly as much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted January 4, 2018 #98 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Farmer77 said: I have been drawn on and fired on on multiple occasions. It sucks and its terrifying. When I decided to go into law enforcement I actually chose corrections over the street because I prefer my violence more personal. Tell me though Joc was the officer that shot the man drawn on? No he wasn't. See we've allowed the police/prison industrial complex to position themselves so they don't have to ACTUALLY face any threat at all. All they have to do is be afraid that there might be a threat. What does...I chose corrections because I prefer my violence more personal....mean? The officer wasn't drawn down on. The crux of the matter is this. The Police went to a home...where the Police had been told by 911 dispatchers, the man has killed one person, he has two hostages in the home, he has poured gasoline inside the home and is threatening to torch it. This is what the Police believed. They believed that because one man called 911 and lied to the dispatcher. That LIE is the problem. That LIE caused an innocent man to die. In the Police officers mind, that man was a dangerous, homicidal and suicidal man. None of this has to do with anything of the sort of The Militarization of Police. It has to do with a man who lied to 911 intentionally to inflict harm on another person. That person is going to go to jail for a long time...because that man's LIE...is directly to blame for an innocent mans death. Edited January 4, 2018 by joc 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent0range Posted January 4, 2018 #99 Share Posted January 4, 2018 6 hours ago, joc said: You are walking up and knocking on that door. Are you attempting to tell me that you would not have any element of fear? Have you ever been drawn down on? Of course there is an element of fear. When we planned our raids in Iraq, we knew the houses that we were going into contained members of Al-Qaeda. Ever been in a house in Iraq? There's usually about 25 people living inside. You line up on the door, you ARE scared. It's human nature. You kick in the door, and all hell breaks loose. Women and children, men, screaming and running. You want to know what NEVER happened in our 300+ raids? Our platoon never once shot an unarmed person. Our platoon never shot a woman or a child. Our platoon also never lost a Soldier to anything but IED's. Fear is natural, but your training should always trump how you react. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pallidin Posted January 4, 2018 #100 Share Posted January 4, 2018 On 1/3/2018 at 0:50 AM, Farmer77 said: Of course if drugs were legal there would be no drug lords, which would save us untold amounts of money and shattered lives. But, but... if drugs were legal there would still be drug lords providing drugs at a lower cost than through the legal, regulated avenue. There is no way around that reality. So, "drug lords" will always exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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