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Colt Storm

Kansas man shot to death by police

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pallidin
On 12/29/2017 at 1:50 PM, Gromdor said:

Murder by cop.  Worst part is the kid can't really be charged for the murder part.

It's not "murder by cop"

Well, unless one hates law enforcement to begin with...

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Tatetopa
7 minutes ago, pallidin said:

Well, unless one hates law enforcement to begin with...

I am not sure I understand what you mean.  The victim certainly didn't have to hate law enforcement to be shot.  The prankster did not think about the cops as people, merely as the agent of a hurtful prank that escalated. 

This is a topic citizens need to talk about.

If Law Enforcement is the only important consideration, then a state could justify police killing anyone they confront as a possible criminal, or an individual with criminal intent.  I am not interested in living in that sort of state.  Sounds like North Korea.

If protection of citizens and suppression of violence against citizens is important, then that requires a different approach from law enforcement officers.

I can see this road going into further distrust and death.  Police will be afraid of an ambush.   Citizens will be afraid of being murdered at their front door.    Technology alone cannot save us.  We could probably develop mechanical drones capable of breaking down a front door and observing what is inside, but police drone operators can be just as detached as military drone operators.  Everybody is a target or a bad guy.  You could blow somebody away without leaving the comfort and safety of police headquarters.    I think police have to be part of a community and not above the law.  That makes them vulnerable, but also our neighbors, parents, and children.  It goes both ways.  Community and police need to be there for each other.   If we had leaders, they might begin this conversation.

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pallidin

I was referring to member Gromdor, not the victim.

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Paranormal Panther
3 hours ago, Faustus said:

They must be having a hard time hiring cops these days.  I mean who would really want the job?  The competency and courage factors are troubling.  

 

It seems like cops used to be braver when I was a kid.  We didn't hear about all these shootings.  Then again, population has increased dramatically since 70s, and now we have internet to circulate the stories.  But I just don't remember this many police shootings.  Does anyone here know where data might be available that supports or refutes?  I can't seem to find much data.  

But, I can't help thinking somewhere in training or procedures for rookies, there is some kind of 'we go home no matter what' mentality.   I feel like as soon as an alleged perp's hand goes toward the waistband does not justify a police response of killing that person immediately.  

I say cops were braver, because it seems like cops back in the day would at least have to see a gun in someone's hand, and usually it was because it was aimed at them before they used deadly force.  

Cops lives are valuable too, but there are far too many innocent people being shot and killed by trigger happy, or scared cops these days.  Protecting their own life with deadly force has to be justified by more threatening gestures than 'moving his hand toward waistband' type crap.  

 

I read somewhere that shootings increased this year. The statistics were amazing. The article was linked from Blacklisted News, which is a great aggregate site. The mainstream news outlets, both left and right, avoid and ignore most of the news stories on the site. 

I was a kid in the '80s, so your childhood recollection rang true with me. Law enforcement agencies and personnel were much different back in the days when life made more sense. The '90s were better too. Things quickly changed after 9/11. There was a decrease in common sense and an increase in police militarization. The recent Las Vegas execution-by-cop was unthinkable when we were kids, although such things happened from time to time. They were much less acceptable back then. You can say the same thing about many things now.

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Faustus

Many police men and women are excellent at their jobs.  Some are fantastic communicators and de-escalators.  Let's make sure we appreciate those officers and express our gratitude when they are doing a good job.  This is the majority of law enforcement officers.  Most are competent.  

 

The butt end of this post is about some of the complete as******, and dangerous cops.  They exist as well, and they are not good at their job.  They confront, escalate and just generally abuse their power for leisure.  We need the Department Heads, Sergeants, Supervisors, Partners, Other cops to weed/vet/ferret  out these pricks, as they are turning half the country against law enforcement.  I'm sure there are intrinsic characteristics some applicants have that could be identified and exposed before sending some of these people  n the street with a badge and a gun.  There needs to be more initial behavioral and psychological screening for some of these leo's.  I respect the police, but let's make sure we are putting our best and brightest out there.  It's a position in our society with far too much power to have such little scrutiny and vetting up front.  

 

 

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pallidin

SOME people take news stories of cops mishandling a specific situation and use it to bastardize "authority" in general.

Why? Because they hate law enforcement.

 

Edited by pallidin
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Gromdor
2 hours ago, pallidin said:

It's not "murder by cop"

Well, unless one hates law enforcement to begin with...

Police have a pattern of behavior that is both predictable and exploitable.  You can use this as a tool to harass, terrorize or even kill someone.  It's why "swatting" is a thing.  So yes it is "Murder  by cop".

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aztek
2 hours ago, pallidin said:

SOME people take news stories of cops mishandling a specific situation and use it to bastardize "authority" in general.

Why? Because they hate law enforcement.

 

BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY DO.

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aztek
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Faustus said:

Many police men and women are excellent at their jobs.  Some are fantastic communicators and de-escalators.  Let's make sure we appreciate those officers and express our gratitude when they are doing a good job.  This is the majority of law enforcement officers.  Most are competent.  

 

The butt end of this post is about some of the complete as******, and dangerous cops.  They exist as well, and they are not good at their job.  They confront, escalate and just generally abuse their power for leisure.  We need the Department Heads, Sergeants, Supervisors, Partners, Other cops to weed/vet/ferret  out these pricks, as they are turning half the country against law enforcement.  I'm sure there are intrinsic characteristics some applicants have that could be identified and exposed before sending some of these people  n the street with a badge and a gun.  There needs to be more initial behavioral and psychological screening for some of these leo's.  I respect the police, but let's make sure we are putting our best and brightest out there.  It's a position in our society with far too much power to have such little scrutiny and vetting up front.  

 

 

yes as few teachers in police academy  said there is 15% of "good" cops, 15% horrible ones, and 70% inept mass that will conform to whoever they work with. but both good cops and passive ones will do anything to cover up for bad cops, lie and keep quiet.  there is a blue line, a brotherhood clan., any cop who tries doing the right thing get fired, jailed, and even killed by the system as it has already happened before. so no, "good "cops will not weed out any bad cops,  now  i do not see what exactly makes them good cops at all. they do not stop bad cops, they lie and cover up for them. 

and the worst thing regardless of all negative media coverage, they still keep killing innocents and lie about it. and no one goes to prison. and it will only keep happening more and more. 

2 things i would do that would no doubt change things overnight.

1 all police misconduct settlements come from police pension plans, 

2 no more trials by judge for cops, jury trials only. no other option.

 

 

Edited by aztek
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South Alabam
On 12/29/2017 at 10:25 PM, Gromdor said:

I'm not so sure.  There is a whole other person (the police officer) in-between him and the death.  And as you say, how can it be negligent homicide if the death turns out to be "justified"?

All I am saying is there are laws against "swatting" and the guy who placed the call will probably be charged with negligent homicide. He is the direct reason Andrew Finch is dead. What happened at the door between the Officer and Andrew Finch, more than likely will never be known.The only body cam footage they are showing is the one from the Officer across the street, and not the Officer who shot Andrew Finch. Regardless, this Officer probably will not be charged in any way, shape, or form. His camera, more than likely will claim to be turned off, malfunctioned, or inoperative during this shooting. And seeing only he really knows what happened at the door, his Department will 100% support him, and anything he claimed happened, therefore the shooting will be deemed "justified" on the Officers part.

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Gromdor
45 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

All I am saying is there are laws against "swatting" and the guy who placed the call will probably be charged with negligent homicide. He is the direct reason Andrew Finch is dead. What happened at the door between the Officer and Andrew Finch, more than likely will never be known.The only body cam footage they are showing is the one from the Officer across the street, and not the Officer who shot Andrew Finch. Regardless, this Officer probably will not be charged in any way, shape, or form. His camera, more than likely will claim to be turned off, malfunctioned, or inoperative during this shooting. And seeing only he really knows what happened at the door, his Department will 100% support him, and anything he claimed happened, therefore the shooting will be deemed "justified" on the Officers part.

By saying the shooting was "justified" the police are saying he needed to be shot by the circumstances at the time.  So how is it negligent homicide on the swatter's part?  No caller had  negligent homicide charges pressed on them when they called the cops who shot the guy with the BB gun at Walmart and there were no negligent homicide charges on the people who called the cops who shot the 12 yr old with the airsoft gun.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/fatal-shooting-walmart-shopper-won-face-charges-article-1.3318774

http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/index.ssf/2017/01/tamir_rice_shooting_a_breakdow.html

 

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aztek

not comparable,  12 years old boy was on the street pointing a gun at people,  this guy was not holding hostages, and did not shoot anyone,  obviously swatting caller  is guilty , but not of any homicide, he did not pull the trigger, cop did,

unless you saying our law enforcement is a dumb gorilla, anyone can call from a different state, tell b.s. and have dumb idiots come and shoot anyone there,  just because someone said so??? no, that is not kind of police the people need, otoh gvmnt needs police exactly like that.  no wonder they try so hard to take our guns away

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Gromdor
1 hour ago, aztek said:

not comparable,  12 years old boy was on the street pointing a gun at people,  this guy was not holding hostages, and did not shoot anyone,  obviously swatting caller  is guilty , but not of any homicide, he did not pull the trigger, cop did,

unless you saying our law enforcement is a dumb gorilla, anyone can call from a different state, tell b.s. and have dumb idiots come and shoot anyone there,  just because someone said so??? no, that is not kind of police the people need, otoh gvmnt needs police exactly like that.  no wonder they try so hard to take our guns away

Absolutely comparable.  As the boy had a toy and only presented the image of being armed, when in truth he was not.  The guy in Kansas by police accounts was reaching for his waist band and non-compliant and was also giving the impression of being armed, when in truth he was not. 

Other than that, I agree with you.  I wouldn't say our police are a dumb gorilla.  They are a trained gorilla.  Anyone can call from a different state (by blocking their address or using a web site), tell BS, and have cops come over and kick down a door or even shoot people.  (Because it just happened and we are talking about it)

Heck my sister inadvertently did something similar.  I was renting out my house while working on an out of state project and my sister decided that she wanted to get a hold of me from Alaska.  When she couldn't, she called the local police station and asked if, "Anything happened to her retarded, brother".  So the cops came over to the house and interrogated my renters over the whereabouts of a certain missing "special needs" person. 

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Myles
On 12/31/2017 at 8:20 PM, Gromdor said:

Police have a pattern of behavior that is both predictable and exploitable.

I don't think this is correct as you are using it.   This is one of the exceptions.   of the 200 or so "SWAT" calls made last year, how many ended in a person being killed?    This might be the only one.   1 out of 200 is hardly a pattern.  

I think the pattern is based off of media covered events.  

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South Alabam
Posted (edited)

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/news/kansas-seeking-extradition-in-fatal-swatting-case-w514855

They are seeking extradition. In Kansas, he could be charged with 2nd degree murder. Look at his actions. He falsely told the 911 operator, he killed his father with a handgun. He said he was holding his "younger" brother and mother hostage, threatening to kill them, himself as well as burn the house down. There was no younger brother.

So the Police are looking for an older male, not too young, because he has a younger brother and not too old, because he killed his father who is obviously older. He set the guy up to be targeted by age. He falsely told 911 he killed his father with a handgun, so he already appears dangerous to the Police. He has falsely claimed threatening to kill his younger brother (who didn't exist) and mother. He also falsely claimed he had poured gasoline, and was threatening to burn the house down.

This guy created a very dangerous situation that ended in an innocent fatality, and probably will be charged with some form of murder, under Kansas law.

If you decide to go shoplifting with your 2 buds, and the 3 of you get caught, and your friend pulls out a gun unexpectedly, and kills the person that caught you, you can all be charged with murder, even though it wasn't part of the plan. That is just the way things are.

So to think Kansas is going to let this guy walk is ludicrous.

Edited by South Alabam
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aztek
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Myles said:

I don't think this is correct as you are using it.   This is one of the exceptions.   of the 200 or so "SWAT" calls made last year, how many ended in a person being killed?    This might be the only one.   1 out of 200 is hardly a pattern.  

I think the pattern is based off of media covered events.  

this is not limited to swat, local pd often mistake addresses, and kill innocents inside.  or they take a word of a crackhead, without double checking, and kill innocents inside for no reason as well, we had it happen too. 

they do not even bother investigating, they shoot first. and they always get away. they could not give two shts about our safety, they do not serve public interests

Edited by aztek

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Myles
32 minutes ago, aztek said:

this is not limited to swat, local pd often mistake addresses, and kill innocents inside.  or they take a word of a crackhead, without double checking, and kill innocents inside for no reason as well, we had it happen too. 

they do not even bother investigating, they shoot first. and they always get away. they could not give two shts about our safety, they do not serve public interests

Still not a pattern.     For every one, there are hundreds where they did investigate properly.    

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aztek
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Myles said:

Still not a pattern.     For every one, there are hundreds where they did investigate properly.    

it is actually a huge one. i do not care about those, i care about innocents killed due to incompetence,and arrogance, and carelessness.  oh and add stupidity too, why should i tolerate even few deaths from someone who is supposed to do exact opposite, paid by our taxes to do exactly opposite.

thew biggest problem here, is people accepting it,.

Edited by aztek

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Gromdor
3 hours ago, South Alabam said:

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/news/kansas-seeking-extradition-in-fatal-swatting-case-w514855

They are seeking extradition. In Kansas, he could be charged with 2nd degree murder. Look at his actions. He falsely told the 911 operator, he killed his father with a handgun. He said he was holding his "younger" brother and mother hostage, threatening to kill them, himself as well as burn the house down. There was no younger brother.

So the Police are looking for an older male, not too young, because he has a younger brother and not too old, because he killed his father who is obviously older. He set the guy up to be targeted by age. He falsely told 911 he killed his father with a handgun, so he already appears dangerous to the Police. He has falsely claimed threatening to kill his younger brother (who didn't exist) and mother. He also falsely claimed he had poured gasoline, and was threatening to burn the house down.

This guy created a very dangerous situation that ended in an innocent fatality, and probably will be charged with some form of murder, under Kansas law.

If you decide to go shoplifting with your 2 buds, and the 3 of you get caught, and your friend pulls out a gun unexpectedly, and kills the person that caught you, you can all be charged with murder, even though it wasn't part of the plan. That is just the way things are.

So to think Kansas is going to let this guy walk is ludicrous.

You article states that the police officers killed him because he wasn't listening to commands and was reaching for his waistband.  They didn't kill him because the swatter lied to the 911 operator.  If they did, then we have bigger problems then just the swatter.

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South Alabam
Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

You article states that the police officers killed him because he wasn't listening to commands and was reaching for his waistband.  They didn't kill him because the swatter lied to the 911 operator.  If they did, then we have bigger problems then just the swatter.

I forgot to add this:

2011 Kansas Code
Chapter 21. – CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
Article 34. – CRIMES AGAINST PERSONS
21-3402 Murder in the second degree.
21-3402. Murder in the second degree. Murder in the second degree is the killing of a human being committed:

(a) Intentionally; or

(b) unintentionally but recklessly under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.

 

The Police Officer that killed him for non compliance is not really the main issue. This never would have happened, had the swatter not called in the false report. This is what the Deputy Police Chief in Wichita is saying also. The swatter is directly responsible for the death, however unintentional.

Edited by South Alabam
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pallidin

The "swatter" is guilty, but not of murder.

His intention was to upset the victim's situation, not to cause death.

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pallidin

And who doesn't adjust their wasteband while answering a door call ???

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joc
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, pallidin said:

The "swatter" is guilty, but not of murder.

His intention was to upset the victim's situation, not to cause death.

I disagree...the swatter is guilty of murder, at the very least negligent homicide or manslaughter.  His actions led to an innocent man's death regardless of his intentions...just because he did not think it all the way through does not lessen the fact that he is  responsible.  Another man's intention might just be to go home from the bar...he didn't plan to kill a family of 5 on the way home...but his intoxicated state is a major player in the outcome of his defense.

Edited by joc
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and then
On 12/29/2017 at 11:04 PM, Tatetopa said:

I heard an interview with the Kansas police dept on the radio today.  The spokesman basically said, "It's not our fault, it is the prankster's fault."    I was focused on the prankster until I heard that.  I think police tactics have to be partly to blame.  I do hope they find and punish the prankster to the full extent of the law, but the police not expressing any sense of responsibility or regret is a huge disconnect in my mind.

The BLM war on cops has had an add-on effect of causing them to be even more twitchy than they already were.  Cops have a job I wouldn't even consider on my best day.  That said, the only people who should be allowed a gun and a badge are those who have proven themselves to be sane and rational as well as empathetic to other human beings.  Mind you, empathy need not be taken to the point of gullibility.  The cop has a right to go home at the end of shift and shouldn't be expected to literally allow a stranger the first shot.  Storming a door and when the homeowner opens up in shock (usually) at the disturbance, not allowing a moment for them to grasp what is happening before shooting them down is just outrageous.  ANYONE could be expected to hesitate or place their hands in a position other than high overhead for just a moment in that situation.  For that small lapse, this father of two is dead.  No, the prankster is NOT the only one responsible.

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pallidin
4 hours ago, joc said:

I disagree...the swatter is guilty of murder, at the very least negligent homicide or manslaughter.  His actions led to an innocent man's death regardless of his intentions...just because he did not think it all the way through does not lessen the fact that he is  responsible.  Another man's intention might just be to go home from the bar...he didn't plan to kill a family of 5 on the way home...but his intoxicated state is a major player in the outcome of his defense.

It is common knowledge that driving while drunk can directly or indirectly cause injury or death of others.

It is not a common assumption that answering police at your door will result in death.

Prosecution involves either "intent" or "negligence", and willful or involuntary.

Intentional homicide in this case simply does not apply, so a charge of murder is off the table.

However, "involuntary manslaughter" could fit.

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