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Fila

Would an ETV be able to visit Earth secretly?

239 posts in this topic

16 minutes ago, keithisco said:

I think too many people believe that "We" as a species constantly monitor our atmosphere and near space with a fidelity that captures everything in motion. This is a fallacy, an over-presumption of capability. Terrestrially there are many instances of loss-of-contact with aircraft, mostly due to Beacon malfunctions, but that is because there is not earth-wide RADAR coverage and most detection is based on the aircraft beacon acting as the active component. With the beacon switched off it becomes "invisible" once it leaves a controlled flightpath.

So yes, an ET craft could easily avoid detection through the application of one or more passive-evasive actions or by active negation through stealth means. 

 

thats assuming man even posed any threat...... would a bunch of highly trained troops with their modern weapons... sitting in the latest high tech armoured  tank.....fear a group of natives with bows and arrows?

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3 minutes ago, seeder said:

 

thats assuming man even posed any threat...... would a bunch of highly trained troops with their modern weapons... sitting in the latest high tech armoured  tank.....fear a group of natives with bows and arrows?

To be honest; I think any ET capable of traversing inter-stellar space would find our little planet pretty boring after a fairly short time. I doubt we would have anything to offer them they didn't already have, or could simply take.

I also have to agree that simply having incontrovertible proof of alien-life would not have any effect on either religion, politics, or society. Alien life? just another box ticked- now whats on the television?  

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7 minutes ago, keithisco said:

To be honest; I think any ET capable of traversing inter-stellar space would find our little planet pretty boring after a fairly short time. I doubt we would have anything to offer them they didn't already have, or could simply take.

I also have to agree that simply having incontrovertible proof of alien-life would not have any effect on either religion, politics, or society. Alien life? just another box ticked- now whats on the television?  

Unless they are coming here to see how the bacteria has grown (life on earth). Hell, we could be nothing more than a science experiment by some advance alien species.

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32 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Unless they are coming here to see how the bacteria has grown (life on earth). Hell, we could be nothing more than a science experiment by some advance alien species.

If indeed "we" were just an experiment then what on Earth went wrong? 

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2 minutes ago, keithisco said:

If indeed "we" were just an experiment then what on Earth went wrong? 

Maybe nothing went wrong. Perhaps life is doing exactly what life does. We just happen to be a more complex form of life. 

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Fila said:

Assuming an advanced ET race managed to send an vehicle to our planet.., would it be able to enter Earth's atmosphere without alerting everybody? Or do we humans have the skies monitored so well, this would be impossible.

I'd imagine...to a point, since the otherworlders that  occasionally visit our planet obviously have the capability of magnetically shielded  plasma stealth technology surrounding there starships at certain times, where the plasma shield simply absorbs radar and sound waves.

The only probable drawback using this technology...is that the plasma makes them visible, especially during nighttime. Though they might operate on some kind of impulse power where the plasma shield can be turned off an on at will, while still having residual power for there starship during nighttime OP's. During daylight...when the sun is out --- it might be no reason for the alien starship to turn to plasma stealth, because they can probably easily out-fly us; while relying on the sun as a possible energy source for photon propulsion.

Flying below radar cover is always an option...

Edited by Erno86
added a word

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It occurs to me that we may have to 'thread the needle' here, between the potential benefits of extraterrestrial contact, and the possible harm it could do. Sudden contact could be too much, all at once. There are many examples of such destructive contact between one culture and another, here on Earth. Gradual contact might avoid much of the trouble, though. It would allow time for people and culture to adjust and adapt themselves to a new reality.

The question of: why contact a relatively primitive culture they might just as well leave alone? is an interesting one.  There would need to be a reason, or reasons, for extraterrestrials contacting us openly.

Perhaps they would take a long view, much further ahead in time they we typically think, as a culture. We could look like a potential problem, with our destructive tendencies, and our ever-growing technology. If they understand how cultures progress technically, from experience with other worlds, we may look poised to turn up on their doorstep one fine day, a few centuries from now.

If so, they may want to move proactively, very gradually introducing themselves us, and preparing us to become peaceful and worthy galactic citizens. For all we know, we could be in the midst of such a 'slow contact' process, right now.  

The fact that we have not been destroyed outright, before can become harmful on a larger scale, seems to me an encouraging sign. 

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Posted (edited)

On 01/01/2018 at 10:33 PM, seeder said:

well lets look at a few facts first shall we?  Recently an asteroid was observed/detected entering our solar system... having come from deep outer space.....it was then tracked as it orbited the Sun and left again

Thank you for your reply Seeder. I'll have to reply to your post 1 item at a time. We can start from deep space if you'd like.., and work back to closer technology.

The fact that we can see asteroids in space.., does make it seem like we can detect everything all the time. I also used to assume this until I looked into how it all works. Observers find and track NEOs using NASA’s space-based NEOWISE infrared telescope and ground-based telescopes around the world which can;

1) Only be used at night time and on clear nights, not sunset or sunrise and is subjected to damage, faults and repairs. (This reduces time dramatically). This particular scope only recently came back online after several months due to instruments being damaged by hurricane Maria.  Due to these Ground-based telescopes limitations.., based on statistical population estimates, about 74 percent of NEOs still remain to be discovered.., so there is no 24 hour, 365 monitoring of 100% of the sky. More like 25% of 40% coverage in that hemisphere in perfect conditions, zoomed in.

2) These observatories are not dedicated to scanning for asteroids. For example this one is operated by SRI International, USRA and UMET, under cooperative agreement with the National Science Foundation (NSF) Arecibo started with the dual purpose of understanding the ionosphere's F-layer while also producing a general-purpose scientific radio observatory. Scientists who want to use the observatory submit proposals that are evaluated by an independent scientific board.

Due to this small time frame of a shared observatory (huge list of scientists even military).., only single photos are taken, then compared with other single images collected over weeks and months. We cannot see a distant asteroid moving in real time because space is quite large and these objects move slow in comparison. 2 hours of observation in one night will not show much movement. The changes are subtle over time.

Its done by looking for slow changes., (Objects can fly around during that gap). Even though they are called "wide-field survey observatories".., they are very powerful telescopes that point towards different positions in the sky and track those positions for an extended time as Earth rotates. (Not monitoring the entire sky).

NASA's Planetary Defense Coordination Office is responsible for finding, tracking and characterising specifically "potentially hazardous" asteroids and comets coming near Earth. Not all. Near Earth refers to asteroids or comets within approximately 121 million miles and objects larger than about 460 feetThe 460-foot cutoff point was established by a NASA NEO survey science definition team (SDT) in 2003. Anything smaller is not deemed worthy.

3) These long range scopes (optical, radar, radio, infrared) are used to detect very large objects at a long distance. (Smaller craft, drones, debris or satellites are not detected). For an ET race to traverse space within a realistic time frame.., we assume it must travel faster than any asteroid (light speed or higher). Smaller and faster objects are too hard for long distance scopes to detect..  While zoomed in on distant objects.., it cannot monitor the skies with 100% coverage constantly with LIVE video feed as we tend to assume.

4) Radar is then used to get the clearest images. This is not perfect, for example. The black area of the asteroid is most likely a depression that did not reflect the radar beam back to Earth These single images are the best we could get of such a large object (3.6mi) 6.4 million miles away during the 15th to the 19th of December 2017. 

PIA22185-16.jpg

A spaceship is a tiny fraction of the 6 kilometre giant in size would not even show up on these images. In fact.., there could be smaller objects in these images right now.., but we cannot tell. (Approx 75 meters per pixel). 

5) People have a romanticised view of astronomers, sitting with a group of nice people sipping coffee and staring through scopes.., but they are mostly run and monitored by computers. Most professional astronomers rely on database queries instead.

 

Edited by Fila

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3 hours ago, Erno86 said:

I'd imagine...to a point, since the otherworlders that  occasionally visit our planet obviously have the capability of magnetically shielded  plasma stealth technology surrounding there starships at certain times, where the plasma shield simply absorbs radar and sound waves

Occationally visit our planet? What proof have you of this?

You also say "obviously have the capability of magnetically shielded plasma stealth technology"

Why "obviously" ? there is no proof we have been visited so you can not use the word obviously.

 

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Posted (edited)

On 01/01/2018 at 11:34 PM, freetoroam said:

It is not a case of humans monitoring the skies....that is something which is happening today because there are thousands of astronomers and space agencies around the world who have the technology and equipment to do this...in our day and age.

I'll just focus on amateurs for now.., Amateur astronomers use powerful optical telescopes to view light.

In order to see a satellite beyond the moon (for example)., would require the sun's light to reflect off the metal.., back to the telescope. The small amount of light (when at the right angle) would not be enough to see after a certain distance (something I am looking into now).

Until I find the statistics on telescope types (refracter/reflector), focal length / aperture / distance and light..., have a look through any optical scope these amateur astronomers have.., and look at something like Europa and tell me how big it is. Then compare this to a potential ETV the size of a house or car.

Or even look at the moon.

 

Edited by Fila

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What is it with this plasma stealth technology?  Unless an alien race have been watching our planet from all the millions of mile away, they would not know what technology we have here. 

Also...getting back to the topic of this thread, they may have the technology to be undetected by our radars but they still have to get through our atmosphere. 

There is more to getting to Earth and not being detected by all the sky watchers or radars...any alien race which could be out there and intelligent and advanced enough to travel through the Universe still have to get to us safely and if they are advanced enough to do that...as i said earlier, they would very likely be advanced enough to watch our planet well before getting here and if weary about us, would likely have the technology to send something to us to make contact prior to landing here.

Let me just make this point very clear: i truly believe we are not alone and there is life on other planets...but as to us being visited...i do not believe we have been....maybe one day aliens will arrive here or maybe one day.....we....will arrive there, where ever there may be....or maybe it will never happen.

Finding life on another planet for us does not need a man in a spaceship...so it is possible an alien inhabitated craft is not on its way to us, but an alien un(manned) craft and it relays back images of what it discovers on its way...(like Cassini did for us) then being detected would not be an issue. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

On 02/01/2018 at 10:27 AM, freetoroam said:

Also...getting back to the topic of this thread, they may have the technology to be undetected by our radars but they still have to get through our atmosphere. 

Just enter on an angle..,, at low speeds. Its how we return to Earth without burning up.

Edited by Fila

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17 minutes ago, Fila said:

I'll just focus on amateurs for now.., Amateur astronomers use powerful optical telescopes to view light.

You have lost me here. Why focus on them only. This is about a possible ETV visiting Earth in secret....nothing to do with who has the biggest or best telescope to spot them....

 

21 minutes ago, Fila said:

Then compare this to a potential ETV the size of a house or  car

I would imagine any craft travelling all those million of miles which have aliens on board, would be bigger than a house and certainly bigger than a car. Unless they are very small creatures which do not need much space to travel in, but they will also mean they are completely different from us, hence we can not possibly assume what they are thinking or what their plans are on arriving here,  maybe they would be more interested in making contact with our ants and would have no interest in our detection systems.

If 

If 

If

.

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Posted (edited)

On 02/01/2018 at 10:41 AM, freetoroam said:

You have lost me here. Why focus on them only. This is about a possible ETV visiting Earth in secret....nothing to do with who has the biggest or best telescope to spot them.....

For now in this one post..., to make it more concise.

On 02/01/2018 at 10:41 AM, freetoroam said:

I would imagine any craft travelling all those million of miles which have aliens on board, would be bigger than a house and certainly bigger than a car. Unless they are very small creatures which do not need much space to travel in, but they will also mean they are completely different from us, hence we can not possibly assume what they are thinking or what their plans are on arriving here,  maybe they would be more interested in making contact with our ants and would have no interest in our detection systems..

Do a few. Car, house, building size. Still the same issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAzhOSbxMiI

 

On 02/01/2018 at 10:27 AM, freetoroam said:

Also...getting back to the topic of this thread, they may have the technology to be undetected by our radars but they still have to get through our atmosphere. 

There is more to getting to Earth and not being detected by all the sky watchers or radars...any alien race which could be out there and intelligent and advanced enough to travel through the Universe still have to get to us safely and if they are advanced enough to do that...as i said earlier, they would very likely be advanced enough to watch our planet well before getting here and if weary about us, would likely have the technology to send something to us to make contact prior to landing here.

Let me just make this point very clear: i truly believe we are not alone and there is life on other planets...but as to us being visited...i do not believe we have been....maybe one day aliens will arrive here or maybe one day.....we....will arrive there, where ever there may be....or maybe it will never happen.

Finding life on another planet for us does not need a man in a spaceship...so it is possible an alien inhabitated craft is not on its way to us, but an alien un(manned) craft and it relays back images of what it discovers on its way...(like Cassini did for us) then being detected would not be an issue. 

"Assuming" (in order to move onto the threads topic). Which is why I clearly stated this. But anyway... 

Assuming they have overcome the problems of space travel.., is not as silly as it sounds. Humans have only been around for 200,000 years.Its possible lifeforms have evolved much quicker and earlier than us. Some of us discussed this in another thread, which had some great sources. I'll try and dig it up.., or perhaps start a new thread to discuss this sometime soon.

The reasons why an ET race would remain secret also deserves a thread of its own.., as many factors could be attributed (all speculation). For example, Diane Fossey did not rush in an demand to "see their leader". They were observed fro ma distance.., tests were done, disease potentials looked at, social implications studied etc.

We send pregnant mice into space.., just to see how deformed their babies are. Yet no one questions how cruel this is. Perhaps an ET race would see us the same, with no moral issues. We choose mice because they are similar, and we get good data about ourselves. Perhaps they just want to run a few tests also. Who knows. Its speculating what an advanced ET race would and wouldn't do based on what we currently know about ourselves and what we would most likely do,.

Edited by Fila

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4 minutes ago, Fila said:

Just enter on an angle..,, at low speeds. Its how we return to Earth without burning up.

We do not burn up on entering because the rockets are protected by the heat shield too. We know about our atmosphere because of years of research....it is posible an intelligent alien race could detect our atmospheric conditions before arriving, but it does not mean they have a spacecraft equipt  to enter safely.

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Posted (edited)

On 02/01/2018 at 10:51 AM, freetoroam said:

We do not burn up on entering because the rockets are protected by the heat shield too. We know about our atmosphere because of years of research....it is posible an intelligent alien race could detect our atmospheric conditions before arriving, but it does not mean they have a spacecraft equipt  to enter safely.

If an advanced ET race can traverse the galaxy.., I would assume they have had to figure out how to re-enter their atmosphere and others. Its a pretty big priority if you plan on going up. We humans sorted it out very quickly, at its not really "rocket science". Just a heat shield and high altitude parachutes

Edited by Fila

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9 minutes ago, Fila said:

We send pregnant mice into space.., just to see how deformed their babies are. Yet no one questions how cruel this is. Perhaps an ET race would see us the same, with no moral issues

Maybe an ET race are mice.

 

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On 02/01/2018 at 10:56 AM, freetoroam said:

Maybe an ET race are mice.

I do not want to get involved in such speculation personally. I'll have to leave you with that. As usual.., I wish to stay on the threads topic.

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1 minute ago, freetoroam said:

Maybe an ET race are mice.

 

Or a virus and we've been killing them with modern medicine. They communicate through coughing, bad gas, and snot. 

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If Aliens did come here and manage to land safely, they would pick a spot suitable to themselves and set up a base camp and a protection perimeter against possible "alien" (us or wild animals) attack ,whether its in an ice region an island or otherwise..They wouldn't know our Country boundaries or whether they are in a friendly zone, they would have to have their own "air" supply and food as our conditions may be toxic to them, as our Moon and Mars is to us.So I think before they came and landed the Planet would be studied by Robots before any communication is attempted .Maybe that's what U.F.O,s are doing now.   

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6 hours ago, seeder said:

.....fear a group of natives with bows and arrows?

... Shampoo ...
 

[00.00:14]

~

 

6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Unless they are coming here to see how the bacteria has grown (life on earth).

Or maybe just visiting granma or granpa like all nice little grandkids do ...

~

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1 minute ago, Fila said:

If an advanced ET race can traverse the galaxy.., I would assume they have had to figure out how to re-enter their atmosphere and others.

Why would you assume that?  Entering the atmosphere is the hard part and i think you are giving an alien race we have no proof of existing let alone flying aroind the Universe, far too much credit based on 'hope' 'fantasy' 'imagination' and a bit of Hollywood. 

 

If

If

If

If

All these if's then anything is posible if you put your imagination into gear....just like many others have done in the past and gave us star wars and star trek, all good on  film but althogh we can send crafts into space, we can not send man out there for  too long. 

Again...do not get me wrong, i absolutely do not believe we are alone....but i do not believe aliens have visited and IF they have ever sent a craft to spy on us, then i would imagine they would have used it to make contact will ua too, it is not as if any of them would have been  in danger.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Fila said:

I do not want to get involved in such speculation personally. I'll have to leave you with that. As usual.., I wish to stay on the threads topic.

EVERYTHING  in this thread is speculation, starting with this question:

Would an ETV be able to visit Earth secretly?

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19 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Or a virus and we've been killing them with modern medicine. They communicate through coughing, bad gas, and snot. 

Do you know years ago i used to hear the word snot quite a bit....now i hardly hear it being used.

Hmm..maybe the virus has mutated.  

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Posted (edited)

On 02/01/2018 at 11:12 AM, freetoroam said:

Why would you assume that?  Entering the atmosphere is the hard part and i think you are giving an alien race we have no proof of existing let alone flying aroind the Universe, far too much credit based on 'hope' 'fantasy' 'imagination' and a bit of Hollywood. 

Because its the 3nd problem scientists figured out after learning how to go up and maintain a safe pressurised capsule. Its very very simple. I'm not giving them too much credit.., its almost arrogant to say no one is smarter than humans.

On 02/01/2018 at 11:12 AM, freetoroam said:

Again...do not get me wrong, i absolutely do not believe we are alone....but i do not believe aliens have visited and IF they have ever sent a craft to spy on us, then i would imagine they would have used it to make contact will ua too, it is not as if any of them would have been  in danger.

Yea, I get it. Thank you for you contribution to this thread and its topic.

On 02/01/2018 at 11:15 AM, freetoroam said:

EVERYTHING  in this thread is speculation, starting with this question:

Would an ETV be able to visit Earth secretly?

I wasn't arguing that. I just said I prefer not to speculate on this off-topic discussion. Just my personal approach to tackling specific thread topics.

Also.., yes this thread is speculation. I would prefer to use real data to back up my points without anger or attacking anyone. Just a nice concise, calm, rational,  on-topic conversation.

Edited by Fila

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