Why do people believe the bible?

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Which part was a straw man?  That original sin is a concept that lots/most Christians believe in?

I always thought the correct phrase was 'All have a sinful nature', which covers infants and children too young to actually 'have sinned' as a verb tense.

Romans 3:23King James Version (KJV)

^{23 "}For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"; is the phrase to which I referring, and the part I was disputing was his assessment of Christians as arrogant, sanctimonious, prejudicial elitists.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Hammerclaw

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I went back and reread this, and feel, again someone else, has defined this thing about sin and it's point of views on all, very well. (Being, I was raised secular with no religious upbringing.) And that is why I view a universal or maybe a personal subjective point of view of this, having sin or being a sinner, is really frustratingly confusing!     So, we are all evil, based on one individual in the past, who may have or may not have existed?!?! (I say that, as a personal observation, considering the Adam and Even thing was coming into my observation later and among subjecting groups and individuals among my later in life.) That really gets me.   

I have no relevancy toward this point of view, considering it's iffy existence, and that I feel it's being judgmental toward others. And, I think, it's not just the fact, you're considered alright if you 'believe' what others feel you should believe, but the fact, you're labeled negatively from the get go. And in my feeling, illogically wrong. I may feel, that what other religions sees as sin or original sin, I see it as the human condition, what we are born with, and not something we inherited from some individual, whose existence could be put into doubt. I am now beginning to think, our thoughts on our human condition is different to what maybe perceived as original sin. 

I can't help but feel, (and this is just my personal point of view, fueled by my secular upbringing) that this is very narrow minded thinking. Granted, I might not have all the background on it, considering my upbringing. I wouldn't say everyone else has to believe and think like I do. And I'm not going to say, objectively I'm right, or even subjectively right, but I will feel, that this is something that really doesn't make sense to me, and it seems very wrong to me.   

I guess, I finally get it now, and boy it really doesn't seem right to me. But for me and my life and how I live it. 

And there is something here, that doesn't resonate with me as well. Even if those who judged as good, but still need to hear the 'good news'? Aren't they already good to begin with, so they don't need to hear it? 

I feel, that still holds a judgmental attitude towards how some want others to live. I don't think that's right. And on the point of them wishing it to spread, so does proponents of other religions and none religions. I'm not saying you are thinking this or not, Hammie, but that you are explaining it to another. In which, this is informative as well.  

The "Good News" is the salvation of Jesus Christ to Christians. You know "For behold I bring you tidings of great joy which shall be to all people."

There's a lot "judgmentalism" in this thread about Christians in general, much of it based on extremist stereotypes. Obviously, "judgmentalism" isn't the exclusive province of Christians. Certainly, not all good people are Christians and not all who profess to be Christian are good people, so some judgmentalism is in order from both sides of the discussion.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Hammerclaw

[+Sherapy]

26 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Lumping all Christians in with the few that preen themselves on their exceptionalism and eschew contact with any but themselves. It's as false a premise as calling all atheists Communists and Bolsheviks because of their one common assumption.

I understood Guyv.,  to be saying that the precept of Christianity is one that all people are born of sin, that is why one needs to be saved.

I agree with you that not all Christians believe this or accept this as truth and you are one who does not. 

I have a great respect for you and how you see things. You are an inspiration on behalf of faith based ideologies. 

Yet, in MW’s case he does believe this and does tend to post in a way that is sanctimonious and holier then thou and he was addressing him not you.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

3 hours ago, Guyver said:

Evangelical Protestantism believes that if you're not a saved Christian, you will burn in the fires of hell.  That's why they evangelize.  They got the idea from Jesus in Matthew chapter 25.

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy^[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. ³² All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. ³³ And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. "

"“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:"

My bold for emphasis.  

So, they spread what they call the Good News that others may be spared that fate. No one is left out and all are made welcome. They wish to share their good fortune not keep it to themselves.

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Truthseeker007 said:

It sounds like a cult to me especially when it says to abandon their lives.

It doesn’t allow for much Independent thought does it. 

[+Hammerclaw]

4 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I understood Guyv.,  to be saying that the precept of Christianity is one that all people are born of sin, that is why one needs to be saved.

I agree with you that not all Christians believe this or accept this as truth and you are one who does not. 

I have a great respect for you and how you see things. You are an inspiration on behalf of faith based ideologies. 

Yet, in MW’s case he does believe this and does tend to post in a way that is sanctimonious and holier then thou and he was addressing him not you.

I know and what I'm doing is sharing what I know of real living, breathing  human beings who practice their religion in humility and compassion. It is not for them to judge; they leave that to a higher authority.

[+Sherapy]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

So, they spread what they call the Good News that others may be spared that fate. No one is left out and all are made welcome. They wish to share their good fortune not keep it to themselves.

Spared what fate?

 

[Truthseeker007]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

It doesn’t allow for much Independent thought does it. 

Yea and it says to pray constantly. When will you even have any time to do anything else.lol!

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Spared what fate?

 

Hell, damnation, separation from the Body of Christ or whatever is in current vogue as the antithesis of what they call Salvation.

[+Sherapy]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

I know and what I'm doing is sharing what I know of real living, breathing  human beings who practice their religion in humility and compassion. It is not for them to judge; they leave that to a higher authority.

I know this about you, you do not covertly or overtly seek to convert others and you are a man of faith.

You look for ways to bridge ideological gaps not create them. 

I am certain that Guyver was not intending to lump all Christians into the same mold; I think he was addressing MW on his terms which are MW thinks that he is a superior specimen because he is Christian and covertly and overtly  looks down on those who are not. 

 

 

[+Sherapy]

2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Hell, damnation, separation from the Body of Christ or whatever is in current vogue as the antithesis of what they call Salvation.

Gotcha.

I think if a person believes this it has more to do with self preservation more than spirituality. 

Obviously, it is punitive and reflects a mindset conditioned to fear. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, Sherapy said:

I know this about you, you do not covertly or overtly seek to convert others and you are a man of faith.

You look for ways to bridge ideological gaps not create them. 

I am certain that Guyver was not intending to lump all Christians into the same mold; I think he was addressing MW on his terms which are MW thinks that he is a superior specimen because he is Christian and covertly and overtly  looks down on those who are not. 

 

 

You do not abandon your life but embrace life, live it to the full and nurture the innate goodness that is the potential of all people. Some do this with Christianity, some without, some with other Faiths and Philosophies. What judgment there may be is not of this world nor is it the province or purpose of any who live therein.

[+Sherapy]

14 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

You do not abandon your life but embrace life, live it to the full and nurture the innate goodness that is the potential of all people. Some do this with Christianity, some without, some with other Faiths and Philosophies. What judgment there may be is not of this world nor is it the province or purpose of any who live therein.

Agreed, well said.

In my optimism, I think we are seriously challenging the type of ideology (s) that use threats and the terrorizing of others, or judgementalness to be good people. It isn’t productive. It isn’t accurate, a path is the reflection of the person living it. 

Goodness comes from within, period, and can be observed no matter the path one walks. 

My greatset growth and gifts have come from my friendships with those who are on another path entirely. My take away is there is no difference when it comes to human nature we are all drawing from the same well. 

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

38 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Agreed, well said.

In my optimism, I think we are seriously challenging the type of ideology (s) that use threats and the terrorizing of others, or judgementalness to be good people. It isn’t productive. It isn’t accurate, a path is the reflection of the person living it. 

Goodness comes from within, period, and can be observed no matter the path one walks. 

My greatset growth and gifts have come from my friendships with those who are on another path entirely. My take away is there is no difference when it comes to human nature we are all drawing from the same well. 

 

Exactly! As for Christianity, it's the promise of Heaven and peace and stability in their lives that draw people to it, not a fear of Hell. People, for the most part, can not conceive of their own death and will deny it to the grave. Hell is just a story to most. Death is scary enough. In my own, frankly honest opinion, people, whatever their creed, who are decent and honest and caring of others are not far from The Kingdom of Heaven, which is spread out across the face of the Earth, 'though men do not see it.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Hammerclaw

[+Sherapy]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Exactly! As for Christianity, it's the promise of Heaven and peace and stability in their lives that draw people to it, not a fear of Hell. People, for the most part, can not conceive of their own death and will deny it to the grave. Hell is just story to most. Death is scary enough. In my own, frankly honest opinion, people, whatever their creed, who are decent and honest and caring of others are not far from The Kingdom of Heaven, which is spread out across the face of the Earth, 'though men do not see it.

Which means live in peace now, peace, shalom, namaste, amen, heaven on earth, savasana, nirvana, satori, prayer, meditation, endorphins, give the facts, etc. etc. etc. different paths, same destination. 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Which means live in peace now, peace, shalom, namaste, amen, heaven on earth, savasana, nirvana, satori, prayer, meditation, endorphins, give the facts, etc. etc. etc. different paths, same destination. 

Yes. The Creator is the God of the Living. The dead have no need of religion. Embrace life and the giving of life. It is the greatest gift, along with love in it's purest form, that God and/or the Universe gave our species.

[Guyver]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

God is love. it is just and merciful , caring and protective.  Thus it CANNOT be the way some people  want to portray it; but more significantly, that sort of portrayal is clearly not intended, because it would drive people from god not bring them towards him.   

I actually believe this.....but here's the problem.  The same bible that tells you God is Love, tells you that the "God" of the Old Testament isn't love, but is anger, wrath, judgement, death, hatred and murder.

This is why I said the bible is theologically confused.  

[Guyver]

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Women were property 

Attitudes to everything were different.  The woman would have been stoned to death  if her rapist did not offer to make her his wife 

The bible shows how  woman could be saved, in the only way possible  in that time.   

I've heard this argument, and even used it myself.  Like Solomon's many wives......its a form of social welfare.  Here's the problem.  People beleive the bible is God's book.  Some believe God wrote it.  So, the same "God" who tells you to love your enemies tells you its OK to kill your enemies, and rape some women, and take some others for yourself in battle.  

It seems to me that if it were actually God writing the bible, he wouldn't be so confused.  He would have said, it's not OK to treat women as if they were property.  It's not OK to beat your slaves, or even have slaves in the first place.  Women, children, and the elderly are no less people than any man is a person and therefore they should be treated with consideration and respect.

Reading the OT is like reading of the gods of tribal savages.  But, it's the good book so it must be good right?  

Nope.  

[+Sherapy]

50 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I actually believe this.....but here's the problem.  The same bible that tells you God is Love, tells you that the "God" of the Old Testament isn't love, but is anger, wrath, judgement, death, hatred and murder.

This is why I said the bible is theologically confused.  

For me, the Bible taken literally is a projection of the individuals mindset, a one on one about the persons take away. 

 

If one defines god as infinite perfection the Bible is meaningless other than the story one tells of their interpretation.

Honestly, and Personally, one cannot rectify, or justify the horrors of the OT especially when looking back on it through the lens of literalism. There is no arguments that you are gonna hear that will  counter the blood shed and scriptural mandates, now that you are actually questioning. 

What helped me let go was studying the OT through a Judaism lens. 

For me, the best book is “How to Read the Bible” by James Kugel

It helped me heal, not by apologetics, but by offering a scholarly/ academic view.

Studying Spinoza helped too. 

And having Jewish friends.

For whatever this is worth, and this is only my opinion. 

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Sherapy

[GoldenWolf]

2 hours ago, Guyver said:

I actually believe this.....but here's the problem.  The same bible that tells you God is Love, tells you that the "God" of the Old Testament isn't love, but is anger, wrath, judgement, death, hatred and murder.

This is why I said the bible is theologically confused.  

You have to wonder why they didn't throw the old testament in the Garbage if they accepted the new "God of love" of the new testament.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Mystic Crusader

[+Liquid Gardens]

3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

^{23 "}For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"; is the phrase to which I referring, and the part I was disputing was his assessment of Christians as arrogant, sanctimonious, prejudicial elitists.

That's what I thought and I agree; if by Christians we mean 'the majority of', then I don't think 'Christians' are overall arrogant, sanctimonious elitists.

3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

There's a lot "judgmentalism" in this thread about Christians in general, much of it based on extremist stereotypes. Obviously, "judgmentalism" isn't the exclusive province of Christians.

Sure, but atheists have no dogma specifically instructing them to not be judgmental, unlike Christians, so the inconsistency does apply to Christians more than some others.  Coupled with the fact that Jesus seems to have admonished hypocrites more often than those who judge, it's a double-whammy.

3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

So, they spread what they call the Good News that others may be spared that fate. No one is left out and all are made welcome.

I think I'd have to disagree with this though.  Of course some are left out and are not made welcome, the comment you are responding to specifically lays out that the goats will be separated.  The good in the 'Good News' is tempered by the fact that its goodness derives from also accepting the 'Bad News' first; 'you have toenail cancer' followed by 'but we can cure it' leaves me pretty much where I started.  And to me taking scripture that includes the statement, "‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:", and heavily euphemistically referring to it as any way related to 'Good News' really stretches it.  I don't know what counts as arrogance and sanctimony if the sentiment there doesn't.

I'm not exactly clear on how the prohibitions about judging are supposed to be applied for Christians anyway.  While acknowledging that scripture says that it will be foolishness to an unbeliever like myself, my understanding is that the prohibition seems to be against carrying out the punishment based on a judgment of sinfulness, a la 'he who is without sin cast the first stone'.  You are called on to judge people to see I believe if you should have fellowship with them and seem to also have a responsibility to try and help fellow Christians if you think they are straying from the faith.  To accomplish that then it seems like you do also need to be able to judge what is a sin or not.  The Bible itself uses such totally nonjudgmental words like 'swine' and 'fools' to refer to unbelievers.  For the most part, I don't think I'd say what I hear from other Christians, 'Christians aren't supposed to judge', because it looks like you are allowed to do pretty much all the judging everyone else does.  I am under the impression though that Christians are specifically not to judge whether someone is saved or not, as that is God's decision alone, although I'm not sure the exact scripture that comes from. But that's a judgment only Christians would be making anyway. 

For me, my favorite weapon against sanctimonious judgmental Christians, and one of my favorite verses period, is Romans 9:15, "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I'll have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I'll have compassion'".  That statement pops up in a discussion about the fairness of God's judgments, and to me squashes the idea of Christians evaluating the state of someone else's soul, and indicates to me that the path to salvation that the Bible lays out is the normative path, not the exclusive path.  God might save some non-Christians just cuz he likes them.

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

That's what I thought and I agree; if by Christians we mean 'the majority of', then I don't think 'Christians' are overall arrogant, sanctimonious elitists.

Sure, but atheists have no dogma specifically instructing them to not be judgmental, unlike Christians, so the inconsistency does apply to Christians more than some others.  Coupled with the fact that Jesus seems to have admonished hypocrites more often than those who judge, it's a double-whammy.

I think I'd have to disagree with this though.  Of course some are left out and are not made welcome, the comment you are responding to specifically lays out that the goats will be separated.  The good in the 'Good News' is tempered by the fact that its goodness derives from also accepting the 'Bad News' first; 'you have toenail cancer' followed by 'but we can cure it' leaves me pretty much where I started.  And to me taking scripture that includes the statement, "‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:", and heavily euphemistically referring to it as any way related to 'Good News' really stretches it.  I don't know what counts as arrogance and sanctimony if the sentiment there doesn't.

I'm not exactly clear on how the prohibitions about judging are supposed to be applied for Christians anyway.  While acknowledging that scripture says that it will be foolishness to an unbeliever like myself, my understanding is that the prohibition seems to be against carrying out the punishment based on a judgment of sinfulness, a la 'he who is without sin cast the first stone'.  You are called on to judge people to see I believe if you should have fellowship with them and seem to also have a responsibility to try and help fellow Christians if you think they are straying from the faith.  To accomplish that then it seems like you do also need to be able to judge what is a sin or not.  The Bible itself uses such totally nonjudgmental words like 'swine' and 'fools' to refer to unbelievers.  For the most part, I don't think I'd say what I hear from other Christians, 'Christians aren't supposed to judge', because it looks like you are allowed to do pretty much all the judging everyone else does.  I am under the impression though that Christians are specifically not to judge whether someone is saved or not, as that is God's decision alone, although I'm not sure the exact scripture that comes from. But that's a judgment only Christians would be making anyway. 

For me, my favorite weapon against sanctimonious judgmental Christians, and one of my favorite verses period, is Romans 9:15, "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I'll have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I'll have compassion'".  That statement pops up in a discussion about the fairness of God's judgments, and to me squashes the idea of Christians evaluating the state of someone else's soul, and indicates to me that the path to salvation that the Bible lays out is the normative path, not the exclusive path.  God might save some non-Christians just cuz he likes them.

The only one who can exclude you from becoming a Christian is yourself. You keep quoting from a book. I'm talking first hand of the practice of a religion. They are not the same thing. If you don't believe what Christians believe, then there's nothing to feel excluded from, the bible an account of God's revelation to Man, not something brought down from on high by an angel. Do you have any first hand experience being judged and excluded by real, honest to god, living, breathing human beings who are Christian, or is that something you heard or read somewhere? Myself, I'm not speaking in the hypothetical but the actual real-life experience.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Hammerclaw

[+Liquid Gardens]

59 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The only one who can exclude you from becoming a Christian is yourself. 

That's not true, that's a faith-based argument, that is just something the Bible teaches.  A citation from a psychologist or something stating, 'anybody can believe anything if they just try hard enough', would be more compelling.  I can no more believe that Jesus is my lord and savior than I can believe that dragons live in volcanoes, and the evidence and argument is about equivalent for each proposition right now.  This is especially perplexing considering your past statements which I agree with that you can only believe on faith and faith is irrational; you really think that anyone can just will themselves to believe irrational things?

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

You keep quoting from a book. I'm talking first hand of the practice of a religion. They are not the same thing.

Of course I'm quoting from a book, where did your information about Jesus Christ come from?  Your references were to Christianity, which supposedly believes this book to be true and isn't shy about it, especially the stuff that Jesus said.

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

If you don't believe what Christians believe, then there's nothing to feel excluded from, the bible an account of God's revelation to Man, not something brought down from on high by an angel.

I didn't understand the last part of that sentence.  The bible is an account of God's revelation to Man including a big section involving Jesus; no, it wasn't something brought down from on high by a mere angel, it was something brought down from on high by the son of God/God himself.

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Do you have any first hand experience being judged and excluded by real, honest to god, living, breathing human beings who are Christian, or is that something you heard or read somewhere? Myself, I'm not speaking in the hypothetical but the actual real-life experience.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.  I have no idea why you're acting so aloof asking if I've 'read it somewhere', you're seriously not aware of Christians being judgmental?  Where am I employing something hypothetical?  Again we are discussing 'Christianity', your real-life experience is only going to be worth so much considering your very limited real-life experience with the other few hundred million Christians just in our country. 

To answer your question, I haven't been judged by Christians to any degree that I would complain about.  Then again I've never had anyone discriminate against me because of my race or gender either; doesn't mean I can't identify when it occurs to others.

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

The only one who can exclude you from becoming a Christian is yourself. You keep quoting from a book. I'm talking first hand of the practice of a religion. They are not the same thing. If you don't believe what Christians believe, then there's nothing to feel excluded from, the bible an account of God's revelation to Man, not something brought down from on high by an angel. Do you have any first hand experience being judged and excluded by real, honest to god, living, breathing human beings who are Christian, or is that something you heard or read somewhere? Myself, I'm not speaking in the hypothetical but the actual real-life experience.

Do you believe that the Bible is a direct revelation from god?

I don’t,  I conclude the Bible is many men’s tales of speaking on behalf of something that is beyond human comprehension. 

It  is not considered fact in any academic standing, if one believes it is gods word they do so on faith. 

I think the only viable bit is  1Corinthians 13:13,  love is not.... but the author was Paul, not god. 

I don’t beleive anyone ever that lays claim to the fact that they know god and can speak on behalf of him, her, It etc. etc. etc. 

Simply because we can’t know as we have no way. 

We can only be agnostic on the matter, this is the most honest position. 

You are a Christian of the heart not of others words, anyway. 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

56 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

That's not true, that's a faith-based argument, that is just something the Bible teaches.  A citation from a psychologist or something stating, 'anybody can believe anything if they just try hard enough', would be more compelling.  I can no more believe that Jesus is my lord and savior than I can believe that dragons live in volcanoes, and the evidence and argument is about equivalent for each proposition right now.  This is especially perplexing considering your past statements which I agree with that you can only believe on faith and faith is irrational; you really think that anyone can just will themselves to believe irrational things?

Of course I'm quoting from a book, where did your information about Jesus Christ come from?  Your references were to Christianity, which supposedly believes this book to be true and isn't shy about it, especially the stuff that Jesus said.

I didn't understand the last part of that sentence.  The bible is an account of God's revelation to Man including a big section involving Jesus; no, it wasn't something brought down from on high by a mere angel, it was something brought down from on high by the son of God/God himself.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.  I have no idea why you're acting so aloof asking if I've 'read it somewhere', you're seriously not aware of Christians being judgmental?  Where am I employing something hypothetical?  Again we are discussing 'Christianity', your real-life experience is only going to be worth so much considering your very limited real-life experience with the other few hundred million Christians just in our country. 

To answer your question, I haven't been judged by Christians to any degree that I would complain about.  Then again I've never had anyone discriminate against me because of my race or gender either; doesn't mean I can't identify when it occurs to others.

No. The Bible is a,collections of documents written by many different people and has passed through many different hands. It's existence was by Imperial decree and there was nothing divine about it's creation. It is interpreted by Christians as holding God's revelation to man and the account of the life an teachings of a man they revere as the "Son of God" who died for their sins and promised them eternal life--or at least that's the spin.Since you apparently have little or no experience with real Christians, your vicarious knowledge of their judgmentalism is the "everyone knows" variety, hence my jaundiced eye..

Edited January 17, 2018 by Hammerclaw