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bigjim36

Why do people believe the bible?

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Hammerclaw
3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Geez, so you cared for both parents, alone. For 20 years you gave up your life. 

It probably is no consultation to you if I say what an angel you are, or that you more than earned your halo. I think you are an incredible man, compassionate and kind. It doesn't give you back those years though, or change your sister, unfortunately, 

Thank goodness you had your faith in god to pull you through, and I hope that with the time you have left you live your dreams, whatever they maybe. 

 

Women like you are the stuff of dreams, Sheri, for a man with the eye to see it, the arms to hold it, the heart to keep it. I'm glad Sean found his dream.

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Hammerclaw
10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Women like you are the stuff of dreams, Sheri, for a man with the eye to see it, the arms to hold it, the heart to keep it. I'm glad Sean found his dream.

My youngest sister is much like yours, the older one in California went through three bad marriages before finding her dream, only to have him die of cancer a few years after their wedding. Jaime was a good man and a good husband and a good friend. She cared for him, those years of hope and desperation and he died at home in her arms, for she would have it no other way. She's paid her dues.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Sherapy
14 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Women like you are the stuff of dreams, Sheri, for a man with the eye to see it, the arms to hold it, the heart to keep it. I'm glad Sean found his dream.

Thank you for your kind words. In Sean, I found mine:wub:

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Sherapy
4 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

My youngest sister is much like yours, the older one in California went through three bad marriages before finding her dream, only to have him die of cancer a few years after their wedding. Jaime was a good man and a good husband and a good friend. She cared for him, those years of hope and desperation and he died at home in her arms, for she would have it no other way. She's paid her dues.

Geez, I can't imagine losing my partner, my heart goes out to your sister. 

Indeed, my younger sister is an absolute mess. I don't deal with her anymore. 

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Hammerclaw
8 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Geez, I can't imagine losing my partner, my heart goes out to your sister. 

Indeed, my younger sister is an absolute mess. I don't deal with her anymore. 

Showing compassion to mine is like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in the bottom. Nothing is ever enough. She takes advantage of the sympathy of others and mooches off them 'till they grow wise in her ways, then moves on to another patsy.

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Liquid Gardens
13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

This simply shows a misunderstanding of the nature and purpose of a belief construct.

What specifically shows a misunderstanding?  Quote my specific line you disagree with.  Again, the only misunderstanding seems to be that you believe you are in possession of The One English Dictionary to Rule Them All.

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Where we have evidences we have knowledge

This simply shows a misunderstanding of how we use the word 'evidence', or is a careless conflation of two different things we have/could have knowledge of.  Where we have evidence, we do not necessarily have knowledge of the proposition(s) that evidence supports.  Yes, in the most mundane and irrelevant sense we can say that when we evidence we have knowledge; we have knowledge that a film exists of what is claimed to be Bigfoot, we have knowledge of what that film depicts, we know who supposedly shot the footage, etc.  Duh.  That film is evidence that Bigfoot exists, yet we don't have knowledge that Bigfoot exists.  Thus your quote above should read, 'Where we have evidences, sometimes we have knowledge'.

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

a belief can be totally logically and rationally constructed when there is no evidence either way.

 Eg you can believe there is intelligent life on other planets in the solar system or not,  precisely because there is little or no evidence for either belief

I'm not so sure about that, depends on how you use 'logically' and 'rationally'.  Is it likewise also logical and rational to believe there are intelligent dragons on other planets in the solar system, because there is no evidence concerning it?

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

As far as i am concerned there is less objective evidence for big foot than for gods and angels.

How would you like to measure it?  I don't think you are aware of how many plaster casts of prints of big feet exist, what for angels do we have that counters that volume?  Make sure you don't confuse testimonials with 'objective evidence'. 

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I do not believe that you go to a doctor, without faith that that doctor can heal you

No more than when I drink water I have 'faith' my thirst will disappear.  Why should I ignore all the evidence that exists in those two scenarios?  The fact that it is not decisive evidence doesn't mean it's not there.

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Evidences are important but trust and faith are what drive us

The word you are looking for there is 'me', not 'us'.  

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

So what do you do when faced with a decision where you do not know  ? Nothing? Or act in faith?

Those are not the only alternatives, you can also act based on evidence and probabilities; there is a spectrum, not just the two points 'certainty' and 'faith' as appears to be your view.  I just pulled my car into the garage because the weather people are predicting freezing rain today.  I don't have 'faith' that freezing rain will actually occur, I have a bunch of evidence that it will, and it still may not.  Why do I need faith when I have evidence, namely concerning the general accuracy of meteorology?  I don't need faith to push me from imperfect evidence to a decision, that imperfect information can give me information to make a non-faith-based rational empirical decision.  Let's say someone says to me that if I roll a pair of dice and get anything other than 12, they'll pay me a million dollars, and if I roll a 12 it will cost me one dollar.  If I obviously decide to take that bet, do you think it's based on faith that I'm not going to roll a 12?  What about probability?

Even if you want to somehow call any decision made with less than perfect certainty 'faith', it is still in many ways a different animal than religious faith, as that faith seems to provide people much higher certainty than the kind of faith you are appealing to here.

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Liquid Gardens
15 hours ago, Sherapy said:

In Walkers case, he does a great job of outlining how he accepts a belief, in the example I use of his he uses ad populum and bandwagon appeal and anecdotal evidence  to weigh the true or false of his beliefs. 

Thanks as always for your compliment Sheri.  I know I've had this conversation before with him, it's probably an annual event by now, I know where it's not going to go, but it can be fun to think through again for myself and to try and explain as clearly as I can.  I haven't really logically absorbed his latest decimation of his own brand of epistemology that came out I think during one of the recent corporal punishment conversations, that he doesn't need to look at studies or anything if he already 'knows' something from his experience.  An attitude like that is not the beginning of wisdom, it's the decapitation of it.

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Sherapy
31 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Thanks as always for your compliment Sheri.  I know I've had this conversation before with him, it's probably an annual event by now, I know where it's not going to go, but it can be fun to think through again for myself and to try and explain as clearly as I can.  I haven't really logically absorbed his latest decimation of his own brand of epistemology that came out I think during one of the recent corporal punishment conversations, that he doesn't need to look at studies or anything if he already 'knows' something from his experience.  An attitude like that is not the beginning of wisdom, it's the decapitation of it.

Great point, in going over these topics, repeatedly, as you, we do find our way to deeper insights.

I honestly could not make sense of the last post of his either. I leave it to you, if anyone can figure it out it is you. :)

There is a lot to be said for education, and a guide to thinking that supersedes our primitive brain.

Great point on wisdom. 

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Ogbin
On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:49 AM, bigjim36 said:

Am I being trolled or are you really that dense?

Interesting! If I don't agree with you then I am a troll or just a really dense person.. Yet here you are baiting me and throw out insults.

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:49 AM, bigjim36 said:

If you really do believe the rubbish you have just spouted

I do.

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:49 AM, bigjim36 said:

then I think you need to read another book other than the bible

Why? So I can become like you?.. No thanks

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:49 AM, bigjim36 said:

Evolution proves that we didn't all descend from adam and eve

Once again.. There is zero proof of evolution. Now, if you choose to believe that the universe just spontaneously created Itself out of nothing and non-living matter gave life unto itself, then good for you. But I cannot, and will not believe in these impossibilities.

 

I enjoy good conversation. Especially when I am able to learn something. But as soon as name calling, insults and disrespect are thrown into the mix, I'm done.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ogbin
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Guyver
On 2/6/2018 at 8:32 AM, bigjim36 said:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
—Isaiah 45:7

If you believe the bible to be true then your god is claiming responsibility for all the evil in the world. If you claim it's a metaphor, then please explain how a quote from god cannot be taken literally? If this is one of the many bits that is taken out of context when you try to claim god is all loving then why are you disregarding it, give a legitimate reason? Or if god didn't say it and isiah made it up what makes it any different to any other book in the bible? 

I think I intended to respond to this post earlier Big Jim, but I’ve been traveling.  I could give you my perspective on that verse, but I would rather offer you the Evangelical-Christian-Born again-Protestant view on that.  So, here it is, are you ready?

It gets brushed over and not talked to much, thought about too much, or considered a “translation” issue, in my experience.  Interesting that “translation” is accepted as a real thing pertaining to “Gods Word” but I guess that’s a different point.

The word evil here is considered by many Christians to mean calamity, which takes them back to their belief that the evils of the OT are God being “Just” - which in their minds means that he easily kills evildoers because they deserve it.

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Guyver

And that’s Ok in their minds.  Some things just don’t need to make any sense to be believed.

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Hello Davros Kitty
8 hours ago, Ogbin said:

I enjoy good conversation. Especially when I am able to learn something. 

Check out the links in my signature, and  let's have a conversation. :)

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GlitterRose
8 hours ago, Ogbin said:

Interesting! If I don't agree with you then I am a troll or just a really dense person.. Yet here you are baiting me and throw out insults.

I do.

Why? So I can become like you?.. No thanks

Once again.. There is zero proof of evolution. Now, if you choose to believe that the universe just spontaneously created Itself out of nothing and non-living matter gave life unto itself, then good for you. But I cannot, and will not believe in these impossibilities.

 

I enjoy good conversation. Especially when I am able to learn something. But as soon as name calling, insults and disrespect are thrown into the mix, I'm done.  

 

 

 

 

 

There's plenty of proof of evolution. You just aren't accepting it.

You don't have to believe there wasn't a designer if you don't want to. 

You could have your cake and not have to put fake frosting on it. 

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psyche101
9 hours ago, Ogbin said:

Why? So I can become like you?.. No thanks

Once again.. There is zero proof of evolution. Now, if you choose to believe that the universe just spontaneously created Itself out of nothing and non-living matter gave life unto itself, then good for you. But I cannot, and will not believe in these impossibilities.

debate.png

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AustinHinton

People belive it because their parents did, and their parent’s parents did, and their parents’ parents’ parents did... it’s a cycle of indoctrination, each generation recruits more to the faith. 

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Mr Walker
On 12/02/2018 at 2:12 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

What specifically shows a misunderstanding?  Quote my specific line you disagree with.  Again, the only misunderstanding seems to be that you believe you are in possession of The One English Dictionary to Rule Them All.

This simply shows a misunderstanding of how we use the word 'evidence', or is a careless conflation of two different things we have/could have knowledge of.  Where we have evidence, we do not necessarily have knowledge of the proposition(s) that evidence supports.  Yes, in the most mundane and irrelevant sense we can say that when we evidence we have knowledge; we have knowledge that a film exists of what is claimed to be Bigfoot, we have knowledge of what that film depicts, we know who supposedly shot the footage, etc.  Duh.  That film is evidence that Bigfoot exists, yet we don't have knowledge that Bigfoot exists.  Thus your quote above should read, 'Where we have evidences, sometimes we have knowledge'.

I'm not so sure about that, depends on how you use 'logically' and 'rationally'.  Is it likewise also logical and rational to believe there are intelligent dragons on other planets in the solar system, because there is no evidence concerning it?

How would you like to measure it?  I don't think you are aware of how many plaster casts of prints of big feet exist, what for angels do we have that counters that volume?  Make sure you don't confuse testimonials with 'objective evidence'. 

No more than when I drink water I have 'faith' my thirst will disappear.  Why should I ignore all the evidence that exists in those two scenarios?  The fact that it is not decisive evidence doesn't mean it's not there.

The word you are looking for there is 'me', not 'us'.  

Those are not the only alternatives, you can also act based on evidence and probabilities; there is a spectrum, not just the two points 'certainty' and 'faith' as appears to be your view.  I just pulled my car into the garage because the weather people are predicting freezing rain today.  I don't have 'faith' that freezing rain will actually occur, I have a bunch of evidence that it will, and it still may not.  Why do I need faith when I have evidence, namely concerning the general accuracy of meteorology?  I don't need faith to push me from imperfect evidence to a decision, that imperfect information can give me information to make a non-faith-based rational empirical decision.  Let's say someone says to me that if I roll a pair of dice and get anything other than 12, they'll pay me a million dollars, and if I roll a 12 it will cost me one dollar.  If I obviously decide to take that bet, do you think it's based on faith that I'm not going to roll a 12?  What about probability?

Even if you want to somehow call any decision made with less than perfect certainty 'faith', it is still in many ways a different animal than religious faith, as that faith seems to provide people much higher certainty than the kind of faith you are appealing to here.

A belief is a construct the mind builds for a purpose when it does not posses the knowledge to know.

This belief may comfort or it may enable us to act . You CANNOT  believe in something you know, any more than you can disbelieve in something you know  That is not my definition it is THE definition of  belief 

Evidences provide the basis for knowledge. If you have evidences you have knowledge.  So, if you have evidences ENOUGH for knowledge you cannot have belief.

If you have insufficient evidences to establish knowledge, then there is still room for belief or disbelief.

It is quite logical and rational to chose to believe there are dragons on other planets (and indeed it is highly likely that there are in some form or another as there are  on earth given the potential number of habitable planets just in our galaxy and the nature of evolution.  )  Of course it is equally logical and rational to not believe  That is the nature and beauty of belief constructs. 

Many millions of humans claim direct contact with angels or god  Only a fraction of that number claim an encounter with bigfoot (although my father once encountered a yowie in the bush in Australia)

I've met many angels but never a big foot, so I am biased. Also I am afraid plaster casts and photos of bigfoot(s)  are no more convincing to me than ones of angels would be to you.

No I mean all humans  You may deny it, but being human it is an evolved part of your cognitive process.

yes there is a spectrum 

You are putting your car in your garage because you have faith in the weather bureau but also because you can predict consequences. If it doesn't hail, no harm done, but if it does you might have saved yourself a lot of money for very little effort  Thus your decison is both faith based and rational.  If you  had NO faith in your weather forecasters, you wouldn't bother garaging your car.       

You have nothing to lose with such a bet, but what if you lost a million if you rolled 2 and won it if you rolled 12. with no result for all other numbers?

All faith is the same It  means taking things in or on faith where you cannot know an outcome based on evidences.

.Religious faith is an important subset of a wider cognitive  process which all humans employ to function  in their lives. if you did not have faith in your own future, it would be impossible to function and to go on living.

We do not know what tomorrow will bring, but we go to bed in faith that we will wake up, and the next day will be survived. 

Sometimes some of us do not wake up, and sometimes some of us do not survive the next day, but we act in faith,  day by day, that we will, because this enables us to carry on, without worrying ourselves sick, and becoming dysfunctional.        

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Lumpino

Some people believe in the Bible, others of in the Qur'an, others in Atheism. Some cough on the whirlwind and do experiments according to old texts. For example, long meditation on the name of a spiritual being. See for instance hindu Bhaktiyogis, like Ramakrishna and his vision mother  Kali, item some christian mystics, hebrew kabbalists .... It was praxis ancient (Greece, Egyptian) mysteries....

Edited by Lumpino
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bigjim36
On ‎12‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 6:02 AM, Guyver said:

I think I intended to respond to this post earlier Big Jim, but I’ve been traveling.  I could give you my perspective on that verse, but I would rather offer you the Evangelical-Christian-Born again-Protestant view on that.  So, here it is, are you ready?

It gets brushed over and not talked to much, thought about too much, or considered a “translation” issue, in my experience.  Interesting that “translation” is accepted as a real thing pertaining to “Gods Word” but I guess that’s a different point.

The word evil here is considered by many Christians to mean calamity, which takes them back to their belief that the evils of the OT are God being “Just” - which in their minds means that he easily kills evildoers because they deserve it.

It is annoying how people who hold so much stock in the bible dismiss whole segments of it or try to change its meaning because it doesn't suit their ideology. I kept trying to explain this to walker, if this sacred book is that sacred then it should be followed exactly. If it's not that sacred then why hold it such esteem? The amount of people who then try to claim it's more of a guide for living or a collection of metaphors etc also annoy me. It's not. That way of thinking has only come about in the last 30+ years or so. Until then, at least in my experience (catholic church/schools) it was taught as fact, the change all started when science started to prove the bible wrong. So rather than admit that, they changed its meaning. If you can change the meaning of a sacred text then it's not sacred at all. It's just text! Haha.

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Guyver
4 hours ago, bigjim36 said:

Until then, at least in my experience (catholic church/schools) it was taught as fact, the change all started when science started to prove the bible wrong. So rather than admit that, they changed its meaning. If you can change the meaning of a sacred text then it's not sacred at all. It's just text! Haha.

That’s how it was for me, beginning with the Revelation.  It can be shown that Bible writers believed the end of the world was upon them in their time.  Since that didn’t happen, it’s obvious they were mistaken.  Since it’s nonsense to believe that God himself could be so wrong about something so important, or anything really.....it stands to reason that the Bible is not a divine work.  Maybe some parts are, or could be, but the more I study it, the more unlikely that seems to be.

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Liquid Gardens
7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

If you have evidences you have knowledge.  So, if you have evidences ENOUGH for knowledge you cannot have belief.

Which is it: do you have knowledge if you have evidence, or do you have knowledge only if you have 'enough' evidence?  It's not helping your communication when you equivocate on what a word means within two consecutive sentences.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Also I am afraid plaster casts and photos of bigfoot(s)  are no more convincing to me than ones of angels would be to you.

It doesn't matter what is convincing to you, that is not the standard.  If you recall, we were talking about volumes of 'objective evidence'; where's yours?

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You are putting your car in your garage because you have faith in the weather bureau

False.  I'm putting my car in the garage because of the evidence supporting meteorology's general ability to predict the weather semi-accurately.  If someone asks me why I put my car in the garage, almost everyone sees the difference between the evidenced answer, 'the weatherpeople are predicting freezing rain, the radar shows a big storm moving this way, there is freezing rain 100 miles west of where I live right now, etc', as opposed to the response, 'on faith'.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

if you did not have faith in your own future, it would be impossible to function and to go on living.

It would be impossible for you maybe, not me. You spend so much time talking about how special you are and how highly trained your mind is, so why logically are you thinking other people think the way you do when you have abundant evidence they do not by your own admission?

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

We do not know what tomorrow will bring, but we go to bed in faith that we will wake up,

No, I don't go to bed in faith I will wake up, I go to bed noting that in the last 18000+ days I've awoken every single day and I'm not cognizant of anything that will cut that short.  I don't need faith when I have evidence and probabilities to work with; people need faith when that doesn't exist, like with religious faith.

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jmccr8
25 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Which is it: do you have knowledge if you have evidence, or do you have knowledge only if you have 'enough' evidence?  It's not helping your communication when you equivocate on what a word means within two consecutive sentences.

It doesn't matter what is convincing to you, that is not the standard.  If you recall, we were talking about volumes of 'objective evidence'; where's yours?

False.  I'm putting my car in the garage because of the evidence supporting meteorology's general ability to predict the weather semi-accurately.  If someone asks me why I put my car in the garage, almost everyone sees the difference between the evidenced answer, 'the weatherpeople are predicting freezing rain, the radar shows a big storm moving this way, there is freezing rain 100 miles west of where I live right now, etc', as opposed to the response, 'on faith'.

It would be impossible for you maybe, not me. You spend so much time talking about how special you are and how highly trained your mind is, so why logically are you thinking other people think the way you do when you have abundant evidence they do not by your own admission?

No, I don't go to bed in faith I will wake up, I go to bed noting that in the last 18000+ days I've awoken every single day and I'm not cognizant of anything that will cut that short.  I don't need faith when I have evidence and probabilities to work with; people need faith when that doesn't exist, like with religious faith.

Wondering if one will wake up in the morning is just as pointless as wondering if one will live till the end of the day as there are likely more that die in their waking hours. :lol:

Same with most people that I know don't park their car in the garage because of the weather, they park their car in the garage because they have one.:lol:

Walter's argument about faith in a doctor is somewhat weak as well and being informed is what people should do. When I had my back surgery I investigated the success ratio of three doctors before I made a choice. Ignorance is no excuse is not unique to the justice system and one should always seek to be informed before making choices.

jmccr8 

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Podo
On 2/11/2018 at 3:09 PM, Ogbin said:

Once again.. There is zero proof of evolution. Now, if you choose to believe that the universe just spontaneously created Itself out of nothing and non-living matter gave life unto itself, then good for you. But I cannot, and will not believe in these impossibilities.

Vw528WK.png

Zero proof? Only if you can't read.

  1. How about this?
  2. Or this?
  3. This, too.
  4. Or even this!

Not to mention the tens of thousands of peer-reviewed scientific publications on the topic.

But yeah, aside from the overflowing oceans of evidence, there's no proof at all.

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Will Due
11 minutes ago, Podo said:

Vw528WK.png

Zero proof? Only if you can't read.

  1. How about this?
  2. Or this?
  3. This, too.
  4. Or even this!

Not to mention the tens of thousands of peer-reviewed scientific publications on the topic.

But yeah, aside from the overflowing oceans of evidence, there's no proof at all.

 

You have to open the door.

Then you'll find the evidence you need.

 

 

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Podo
5 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

You have to open the door.

Then you'll find the evidence you need.

 

 

Reading and educating yourself is more important. Give it a try.

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psyche101
24 minutes ago, Will Due said:

You have to open the door.

Many have opened it for you already, you keep slamming it shut. 

Quote

Then you'll find the evidence you need.

Accepting it seems to be the problem it's easier to just run with feelgood scenarios that offer desires. Smells like dopamine. 

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